Business men, Industry, Farmers, what's your view about Europe

[timmytree]

In all probability Yes... Like I said the xenophobes just haven't thought it through logically ... their extreme partisan views and personal dislike of the Premier have clouded intelligent consideration of the facts.

 

Probably get more of the same inane ramblings as a retort in justification of their fascist beliefs...and I use the word in its literal sense not as derogatory adjective.

You just can't accept that anyone whose view differs from yours is entitled to an opinion can you? Isn't it our right to seek change in the way things are done if we don't agree with present policies?

Voting for change is democracy, we all have that right but most of us don't stoop to insulting those who hold different ideas because we respect that right. If I decide to vote UKIP I have the right to do so for my own reasons, if you want to imply that I'm an unintelligent xenophobe with fascist tendencies that's your right but it does show you up as rather boorish. No one can say what is the correct way, nothing is certain but insults don't make or keep friends.

[Winston72]

 

Forgetting all your inane ramblings for a minute, perhaps you could answer my question?

 

Why is it necessary to be in a political union with a country to be able to trade with it?

 

So a simple question for you, a simple answer would be appreciated.

You will be lucky to get a straight answer on about anything on here matey, it seems the the fount of NO knowledge, and a hell of a lot of opinions based on general ignorance,the very best of luck in your quest sir.

[Fisherman Mike]

Forgetting all your inane ramblings for a minute, perhaps you could answer my question?

 

Why is it necessary to be in a political union with a country to be able to trade with it?

 

So a simple question for you, a simple answer would be appreciated.

 

Its not.

[poontang]

You will be lucky to get a straight answer on about anything on here matey, it seems the the fount of NO knowledge, and a hell of a lot of opinions based on general ignorance,the very best of luck in your quest sir.

 

Oh, I'm sure Mike will come up with something.

 

As you have quite rightly suggested it won't be a straight answer, and it will be based on general ignorance, but he will come up with something!!

[Scully]

In all probability Yes... Like I said the xenophobes just haven't thought it through logically ... their extreme partisan views and personal dislike of the Premier have clouded intelligent consideration of the facts.

 

Probably get more of the same inane ramblings as a retort in justification of their fascist beliefs...and I use the word in its literal sense not as derogatory adjective.

There comes a time when you can get thoroughly bored with the same old people traipsing out the same old carp in response to people refusing to come round to their train of thought.

I have voted Tory all my voting life, but now vote UKIP not because I am racist or xenophobic, but because I am sick and tired of being dictated to by a totally unelected and unaccountable bunch of egotistical bureaucrats who at the same time are milking the system for all it's worth for their own monetary gain while I cannot do a bloody thing about it! How can that be right?

I would still feel the same way if the entire make up of the European parliament consisted of people of white English heritage.

Farage has stated, when asked by those bureaucrats in Europe what his intentions were, was 'to see you lot out of a job'. Now whether this will happen or not, despite the UK staying or leaving remains to be seen, but he is the only one who is standing up to them and saying enough is enough, and that will do for me.

Cameron may waffle on about negotiating a new deal regards immigration from within the EU, which is fine and dandy; I really don't care as immigration isn't as important to me as getting us out of the EU is. If he wants to categorically state that he will hold an IN/OUT referendum NOW, never mind after the GE, then I'll vote for him.

Immigration is obviously an important issue for many people, and all the other parties had to do to placate voters, was to listen, but rather than that all they have done for years is scorned and ridiculed them as bigots and branded UKIP the same and ridiculed their capability of posing a threat. They have played the racist card by shouting the slur at UKIP and their supporters loud and often in their derision in the hope that if something is said loud and often enough, those it is aimed at will be shamed into silence. It aint working anymore I'm afraid.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Scully

[poontang]

Its not.

 

So why not disband the EU as it stands, return sovereignty to the nation states and have a simple trading union?

[kdubya]

In all probability Yes... Like I said the xenophobes just haven't thought it through logically ... their extreme partisan views and personal dislike of the Premier have clouded intelligent consideration of the facts.

 

Probably get more of the same inane ramblings as a retort in justification of their fascist beliefs...and I use the word in its literal sense not as derogatory adjective.

your stupids rants and characterisation prove only one thing , and that it is you who is the real bigot, in these threads

see the definition below I think you will find it fits you very well

 

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with dislike or intolerance

[Gordon R]

We still have a massive skills shortage in this country and its not going to improve.. nationals have become infected with sloth and apathy and reliant on benefits long before the immigrant numbers burgeoned.

 

So staying in the EU will make this better?

 

Anyone who disagrees with FM has not been thinking logically - allegedly, although logical thinking and FM in the same sentence is no mean feat. :whistling:

[SHOOTEMUP]

 

So why not disband the EU as it stands, return sovereignty to the nation states and have a simple trading union?

 

Full Circle

[kdubya]

 

So why not disband the EU as it stands, return sovereignty to the nation states and have a simple trading union?

Which is exactly what we voted for in the first place, the present EU set up was foisted upon us by our political elite as part of their European utopia.

 

 

KW

[islandgun]

I've yet to find anyone who can give an answer to one simple question.

 

Why is it necessary to be in a political union with a country to be able to trade with it?

 

Anyone?

I can see no reason why anyone would have a problem trading with anyone else, surely if the price is right and the product is good then you will sell it. what may be a problem for the UK is competing with the likes of India or China, where there exists a large workforce who work for very little, is a free market the way forward for Britain I would like to think so but Im not sure

[kdubya]

I can see no reason why anyone would have a problem trading with anyone else, surely if the price is right and the product is good then you will sell it. what may be a problem for the UK is competing with the likes of India or China, where there exists a large workforce who work for very little, is a free market the way forward for Britain I would like to think so but Im not sure

Even if out of Europe we would still be trading, after all where else could they get the excessive mark ups deemed acceptable here, to the point that the UK is called treasure island by our "fellow Europeans"

 

 

KW

[Fisherman Mike]

your stupids rants and characterisation prove only one thing , and that it is you who is the real bigot, in these threads

see the definition below I think you will find it fits you very well

 

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with dislike or intolerance

You've already been exposed in a recent thread for what you are mate...don't start throwing insults about...

[Fisherman Mike]

Even if out of Europe we would still be trading, after all where else could they get the excessive mark ups deemed acceptable here, to the point that the UK is called treasure island by our "fellow Europeans"

 

 

KW

If you are so disenchanted with Britain...why don't you **** off to France... ?

[kdubya]

You've already been exposed in a recent thread for what you are mate...don't start throwing insults about...

Have I? my statement in the thread you mention was factual, deserved, and above all not without merit, but as they say the truth hurts does it not chum, keep up the good work of self ridicule.

 

KW

If you are so disenchanted with Britain...why don't you **** off to France... ?

tut tut :lol:

[Fisherman Mike]

Have I? my statement in the thread you mention was factual, deserved, and above all not without merit, but as they say the truth hurts does it not chum, keep up the good work of self ridicule.

 

KW

tut tut :lol:

Well give us a straight answer ? why not France...you would be happier..

Edited December 7, 2014 by Fisherman Mike

[kdubya]

Well give us a straight answer ? why not France...you would be happier..

I actually speak a little french and love the place and spend as much time out there as I can, but would I be happier? probably not as I would never settle knowing that my heritage and culture was left in the likes of your hands.

 

KW

[islandgun]

If you are so disenchanted with Britain...why don't you **** off to France... ?

Not sure where trading insults will get us apart from a pulled thread, KW has never come across as disenchanted with Britain (just the opposite) more just the way its run, FM in my opinion isnt a bigot,

usually standing up against it,

[grrclark]

indeed this is my concern, if it is correct to assume that all governments are basically manipulated by big business and big business is unsure itself, who does know, we have seen UKIP has some serious money behind it, the cons obviously do, can I also assume that big business has our country's best interest at heart or are they only looking after themselves/business interest,

 

 

I think that depends on the business in all honesty. For those that rely on a unique skill set and established supply chain in the UK, or of they are selling something that is uniquely associated with Britain then they will have the countries interest at heart, for those that have the ability to be mobile and are serving a global market then I would argue that their business interests would come first.

 

Examples would be the finance industry, there is a huge amount of talent and infrastructure in the UK, with London obviously being the most prominent, a strong relationship with government makes it a good place to do business for them so they are very much acting in the interest of the UK remaining a competitive environment for both investors and customers. For volume manufacturers of commodity products, such as cars then I would argue that it is much less so especially if they have a well established overseas supply chain, i.e. Nissan.

 

Local producers will always favour national interest because they don't have a choice.

 

As we are a country of limited natural resources we are never going to be a global powerhouse on that front, we will always have to rely on our ability to design & make stuff, service stuff or fund stuff in order to be able to pay our way. In that respect we absolutely rely on private business to create our wealth so to some extent we have to bend towards the will of business otherwise we run a very real risk of cutting off our lifeline, but of course it does have to be an appropriate balance.

 

We are and have always been a trading nation, but regrettably we have allowed our internal cost of living to rise to the point where are not competitive on a global basis. We are obscenely consumerist

 

Stupidly we relied on artificial property wealth in order to fund our overt consumerism, in so doing we really have backed ourselves into a corner.

 

It is the same with the balance of trade as referenced by Lampwick, we buy more from overseas than we sell and as our economy has been relatively strong compared to the EU then we have had a greater buying power, our currency is a little bit stronger which makes it much more challenging for our exporters. I don't know that I would agree with Lord Stoddart that is due to the EU being a millstone, I look at it that our own cost of living crisis is the millstone, yet we continue to propagate that problem by stimulating artificial growth in property, so we borrow more against those assets and then spend the majority of that cash on product sourced from abroad. Of course inflated property prices mean higher mortgages and rents which in turn means our income has to rise to keep up and that is simply not sustainable.

 

Look at your own buying habits in that respect, would you pay a bit more to buy British or do you opt for the cheapest product at suitable quality regardless of where it is from? If you don't actually have the choice to buy British it is because we simply can't afford to make it in the face of cheap overseas competition and our domestic producers are no more. As an example would you spend £100+ on a paid of largely hand made British shoes from Northampton or would you opt for the pair at £40 from Portugal?

 

In this country we keep looking outwardly to lay the blame for our difficulties and of course there are external influencers, but in the main the problem lies with ourselves.

 

I think that with the benefit of hindsight we can see where we made some fundamental mistakes under governments of all colours in the past and to some extent that has established certain behavioural traits that compound the problem and to reverse those would cause an awful lot of pain for an awful lot of people.

 

My gut feeling is that we do have to significantly reduce the size of the state which means that a continuation of spending cuts across all state provided services, we need to stop being such a soft touch with big business and increase our tax receipts from them and we need to let the property market slow down. Of course if we have to reduce the size of the state then we need to strictly manage our population size and that is where it is critical that immigration is managed.

 

If we can reduce the size of the state structural spend then we can borrow and make an investment in state infrastructure including a significant programme of social housing and transport infrastructure. Large scale investment in social housing would hurt a lot of private landlords and those who invested in property, but that is one of the costs and I see that as an essential requirement for the UK going forward.

 

What we have now is simply unsustainable and absolutely nothing to do with the EU, it is simply just an evolution of capitalism and the emergence of new economies with an awful lot more resources than we have.

 

All of the economies that will show strong growth over the next 20+ years are all large landmass countries and all with a wealth of natural resource and a huge amount of surplus in their workforce, i.e. Brazil, Russia, India and China. They all of course have a lot of socio political problems and appallingly poor infrastructure that have hindered their ability to challenge the west as much as they could, but that is changing.

 

The established large economy countries, but with a small landmass and lower levels of natural resources that relied on innovation and manufacturing and enjoy a relatively high standard of living are all going backwards in relative terms, i.e. GB, Germany, Italy, Japan, France, etc.

 

The USA and Canada are two notable exceptions as they have huge amounts of natural resources that can sustain their relatively high cost workforce, so they will always remain strong players.

 

All just my opinions of course and apologies for rambling on.

Edited December 7, 2014 by grrclark

[Fisherman Mike]

I actually speak a little french and love the place and spend as much time out there as I can, but would I be happier? probably not as I would never settle knowing that my heritage and culture was left in the likes of your hands.

 

KW

Safe as houses....the worlds changing I'm afraid to tell you.....go with it or get left behind.

[Fisherman Mike]

 

I think that depends on the business in all honesty. For those that rely on a unique skill set and established supply chain in the UK, or of they are selling something that is uniquely associated with Britain then they will have the countries interest at heart, for those that have the ability to be mobile and are serving a global market then I would argue that their business interests would come first.

 

Examples would be the finance industry, there is a huge amount of talent and infrastructure in the UK, with London obviously being the most prominent, a strong relationship with government makes it a good place to do business for them so they are very much acting in the interest of the UK remaining a competitive environment for both investors and customers. For volume manufacturers of commodity products, such as cars then I would argue that it is much less so especially if they have a well established overseas supply chain, i.e. Nissan.

 

Local producers will always favour national interest because they don't have a choice.

 

As we are a country of limited natural resources we are never going to be a global powerhouse on that front, we will always have to rely on our ability to design & make stuff, service stuff or fund stuff in order to be able to pay our way. In that respect we absolutely rely on private business to create our wealth so to some extent we have to bend towards the will of business otherwise we run a very real risk of cutting off our lifeline, but of course it does have to be an appropriate balance.

 

We are and have always been a trading nation, but regrettably we have allowed our internal cost of living to rise to the point where are not competitive on a global basis. We are obscenely consumerist

 

Stupidly we relied on artificial property wealth in order to fund our overt consumerism, in so doing we really have backed ourselves into a corner.

 

It is the same with the balance of trade as referenced by Lampwick, we buy more from overseas than we sell and as our economy has been relatively strong compared to the EU then we have had a greater buying power, our currency is a little bit stronger which makes it much more challenging for our exporters. I don't know that I would agree with Lord Stoddart that is due to the EU being a millstone, I look at it that our own cost of living crisis is the millstone, yet we continue to propagate that problem by stimulating artificial growth in property, so we borrow more against those assets and then spend the majority of that cash on product sourced from abroad. Of course inflated property prices mean higher mortgages and rents which in turn means our income has to rise to keep up and that is simply not sustainable.

 

Look at your own buying habits in that respect, would you pay a bit more to buy British or do you opt for the cheapest product at suitable quality regardless of where it is from? If you don't actually have the choice to buy British it is because we simply can't afford to make it in the face of cheap overseas competition and our domestic producers are no more. As an example would you spend £100+ on a paid of largely hand made British shoes from Northampton or would you opt for the pair at £40 from Portugal?

 

In this country we keep looking outwardly to lay the blame for our difficulties and of course there are external influencers, but in the main the problem lies with ourselves.

 

I think that with the benefit of hindsight we can see where we made some fundamental mistakes under governments of all colours in the past and to some extent that has established certain behavioural traits that compound the problem and to reverse those would cause an awful lot of pain for an awful lot of people.

 

My gut feeling is that we do have to significantly reduce the size of the state which means that a continuation of spending cuts across all state provided services, we need to stop being such a soft touch with big business and increase our tax receipts from them and we need to let the property market slow down. Of course if we have to reduce the size of the state then we need to strictly manage our population size and that is where it is critical that immigration is managed.

 

If we can reduce the size of the state then we can borrow and make an investment in state infrastructure including a significant programme of social housing and transport infrastructure. Large scale investment in social housing would hurt a lot of private landlords and those who invested in property, but that is one of the costs and I see that as an essential requirement for the UK going forward.

 

What we have now is simply unsustainable and absolutely nothing to do with the EU, it is simply just an evolution of capitalism and the emergence of new economies with an awful lot more resources than we have.

 

All of the economies that will show strong growth over the next 20+ years are all large landmass countries and all with a wealth of natural resource and a huge amount of surplus in their workforce, i.e. Brazil, Russia, India and China. They all of course have a lot of socio political problems and appallingly poor infrastructure that have hindered their ability to challenge the west as much as they could, but that is changing.

 

The established large economy countries, but with a small landmass and lower levels of natural resources that relied on innovation and manufacturing and enjoy a relatively high standard of living are all going backwards in relative terms, i.e. GB, Germany, Italy, Japan, France, etc.

 

The USA and Canada are two notable exceptions as they have huge amounts of natural resources that can sustain their relatively high cost workforce, so they will always remain strong players.

 

All just my opinions of course and apologies for rambling on.

Agreed

[Lampwick]

Are we really better off from a business perspective?

Annual UK/EU trade deficit soars to £56 billion

In response to a written question from the independent Labour Peer, Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Hansard 02.12.14), the Government has confirmed that the UK’s annual trade deficit with the EU has soared from £28.5 billion in 2010 to a colossal £56.5 billion in 2013.

Responding for the Government, the Minister of State at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Lord Livingston of Parkhead said: The UK’s trade deficit with the European Union was £28.5bn in 2010, £21.7bn in 2011, £39.5bn in 2012 and £56.2bn in 2013.

Commenting on the Government’s response, Lord Stoddart said: “This massive trade imbalance graphically demonstrates that more than 40 years of EU membership has done nothing for our economy and for jobs. It also demonstrates that the situation in recent years has dramatically deteriorated with the deficit very nearly doubling in just four years. It is quite clear that EU membership is a millstone around our country’s economic neck.”

 

Source

: ONS UK Economic Accounts 2014Q2

In response to the original question, it's not going too well for us at the moment, is it???

 

What I'm not too sure about is spending billions on "new" EU countries to enhance their economies at your tax paying expense and in the long run possibly at our economic cost? Germany was on its knees post WW2 but seems to be the power house now!

 

Why can't we invest this cash into our infrastructure?

[islandgun]

Agreed

so do you think that a united Europe would resemble the USA and Canada as a large landmass and natural resource coupled with workforce great post grrclark

[grrclark]

In response to the original question, it's not going too well for us at the moment, is it? ??

 

What I'm not too sure about is spending billions on "new" EU countries to enhance their economies at your tax paying expense and in the long run possibly at our economic cost? Germany was on its knees post WW2 but seems to be the power house now!

 

Why can't we invest this cash into our infrastructure?

 

Germany also struggled post unification and recently have been able to take advantage of the difference in cost between the old east and west, they are an interesting and fairly unique case.

 

I think that a big part of the EU is trying to have some control in the shift of balance from established powerhouse economies towards the emerging ones, if you can effectively manage what your emerging competitors do economically then you don't have to go to war with them, equally being part of a larger union also stops your established competitors from trying to exert undue influence.

 

There is also the argument of scale, a consolidated EU can in theory compete much more effectively with China, Brazil, India, etc. The major problem is that Europe has had centuries of fighting with itself and has such a divergence between states of development that it was never going to be an easy gig to all play nicely together.

 

Countries like Russia and China that have a much more totalitarian regimes effectively control their populace and they conform to a common policy, broadly, and so become a more formidable opponent. After the break up of the USSR Russia went backwards, under Putin with his much more focussed and nationalistic leadership they have recovered fairly significantly. That is why he is no friend of the oligarchs, he didn't want vested commercial interests of individuals to overtake the interests of the state.

 

That is one of the major reasons that Africa are never talked about in global economic terms, they have all the necessary ingredients to be hugely dominant in the world but in general they are desperately under developed and too busy fighting each other that we don't really need to worry about them yet.

Edited December 7, 2014 by grrclark

[kdubya]

....the worlds changing I'm afraid to tell you.....go with it or get left behind.

yes its changing at long last and thanks to UKIP I wont be left behind with you.

 

 

KW