What! No Brickies!

[sako751sg]

 

Why do you think standards have dropped Sako?

 

I ask from a position of ignorance really, but from knowing some people in the trade I hear an argument that it is an attitude problem with some workers, but others say that they are asked to do too much too fast so have to bodge to get through.

 

I would guess that it is probably a bit of both but also have a suspicion that a lot of the new construction tradesmen just don't seem to have the same level of training as before, instead of doing their time as an apprentice and learning through doing it is a lot of college based work and it's just not the same quality.

Mixture of every man and his dog who could hold a trool suddenly becoming a tradesman,many good men getting away from it when things were bad and the old school are at or near to retirement.As i said,in 5 years ive seen one apprentice and he has to be titfed even in his 4th year which is all too common of the youth of today.

I can see the too much too fast side also,and thats where the shadier lads come in and they will throw it up to make money.

[Paddy Galore!]

Mixture of every man and his dog who could hold a trool suddenly becoming a tradesman,many good men getting away from it when things were bad and the old school are at or near to retirement.As i said,in 5 years ive seen one apprentice and he has to be titfed even in his 4th year which is all too common of the youth of today.

I can see the too much too fast side also,and thats where the shadier lads come in and they will throw it up to make money.

I see a lot of that where i'm at now, my firm will gladly take on slack jawed diy'ers which is ok if there's just a lock to change and a bit of filler here and there, but not when they have to repair and redesign a staircase. like one guy did, he'd replaced the kites with a half landing, but there was only an inch of the upper case string on the platform, he'd also managed to omit a newel post or two which left a rather nasty trip and fall hazard half way down the stairs. the worst part is none of the supervisory staff noticed.

[Guest stevo]

speaking as a tradesmen bricklayer of 30 years ( traditionally timed served 3 yrs city and guilds and 5 years as a " improver " total of 8 years before we was allowed to call our selves bricklayers . the same as my work partner of 25 yrs , we have found the biggest problem now days is the training given , the so-called NVQ courses are poor at best , its a skill that takes years and years to master , not something that can be learnt in a couple of years going to college one day a week , I have trained up lots of apprentices over the years , I have two under my wing at the moment , they have been with us for nearly two years ,yet they still have a long way to go , there good lads , and I have every confidence that they will make the grade ,

 

the other problem is the attitude of the modern youngster , , and like so many people are under the misconception that's its a " right easy job , with short days , no working in the rain , and a big bundle of cash at the end of the week ....................... Err I don't think so , its a ******* of a job , its hard graft , too cold in winter , too hot in summer , dirty ,dusty and ALWAYS under pressure to build build build ! and that's just the best bit ha ha , its a job for a certain breed of person ,

 

and then you have the risk factor of working in the building trade in this country , more people die / killed in the building trade each year than ALL the Armed forces( front line ) , Police , Fire and emergency/ Rescue services combined ! just have a look at the HSE and ROSPA stats , and then you have all the ones that are injured / maimed/ paralysed .

 

and at the end of 50 years of pulling your **** out , you just end up with a high risk of lung disease ( from silica ) skin cancer , arthritis , and NO pension .

 

Hmmm where do I sign up ;-)

Edited December 9, 2014 by stevo

[Ollieollie]

speaking as a tradesmen bricklayer of 30 years ( traditionally times served 3 yrs city and guilds and 5 years as a " improver " total of 8 years before we was allowed to call our selves bricklayers . the same as my work partner of 25 yrs , we have found the biggest problem now days is the training given , the so-called NVQ courses are poor at best , its a skill that takes years and years to master , not something that can be learnt in a couple of years going to college one day a week , I have trained up lots of apprentices over the years , I have two under my wing at the moment , they have been with us for nearly two years ,yet they still have a long way to go , there good lads , and I have every confidence that they will make the grade ,

 

the other problem is the attitude of the modern youngster , , and like so many people are under the misconception that's its a " right easy job , with short days , no working in the rain , and a big bundle of cash at the end of the week ....................... Err I don't think so , its a ******* of a job , its hard graft , too cold in winter , too hot in summer , dirty ,dusty and ALWAYS under pressure to build build build ! and that's just the best bit ha ha , its a job for a certain breed of person ,

 

and then you have the risk factor of working in the building trade in this country , more people die / killed in the building trade each year than ALL the Armed forces( front line ) , Police , Fire and emergency/ Rescue services combined ! just have a look at the HSE and ROSPA stats , and then you have all the ones that are injured / maimed/ paralysed .

 

and at the end of 50 years of pulling your **** out , you just end up with a high risk of lung disease ( from silica ) skin cancer , arthritis , and NO pension .

 

Hmmm where do I sign up ;-)

Steve,

Have you ever considered becoming a careers adviser?

[Guest stevo]

Steve,

Have you ever considered becoming a careers adviser?

haha I did used to be a tutor for a while , but I missed being outside and the lads , I personally love the job , to be fair its all I know , but the days of " sun tans and speedo's " are long gone

Edited December 9, 2014 by stevo

[Ollieollie]

It's give me a good living, as you say it's a good job for the right type of person. The Nhbc are becoming silly now, was asked to plumb each tie up recently!

[Guest stevo]

It's give me a good living, as you say it's a good job for the right type of person. The Nhbc are becoming silly now, was asked to plumb each tie up recently!

yeah I know what you mean , its about points and awards ,

[100milesaway]

Another recent skills shortage was for sandwich makers ....!!!!!!!

 

so the company got a load of Hungarians to make them. That is not a skills shortage, it is an attitude problem.

Yes, I much agree with your last observation. Before I opened My business, I used to help out my brickie ex partner, on the numerous occasions that their many hoddies let them down. I, due to only being 9 stone wet through could never master the full hod and only managed to cope with carrying it 2 bricks light,same with the hod of cement, I used to bucket it 'cause I couldn't manage to balance the near full hod and top up at the same time.My brickies always maintained I was their best, and quickest hoddie ever.They were always sad when they got a supposed expienced lad..Nothing changed when I opened my business, even though I paid the best rates going, I was continually dissapointed with the appathy and work ethics of the under 40's.. I would advice anyone now to select from the top age end of your applicants,Thats just from my experiense,and I had a wait list of people that wanted to work for me. from Auntie.

[100milesaway]

not true that I know plenty who want to be in the trades, at our last intake we interviewed over 400 over 3 weeks for 16 positions the applications numbered THOUSANDS, some traveling as far as from Hull for an interview, its not that they dont want the jobs its simply that the apprenticeships are not there,Yuills one of the biggest housebuilding companies in the north has just gone bust, wonder what happened to the apprentices there? pop down to Hartlepool college of further education and ask why they have just laid off some industrial instructors? and then see if your claim of mummies boys or girls holds water.

 

KW

I can only speak as I see, and I too had hundreds of applications for vacancy's at my business, they sparkled at interviews and looked to me to have masses of personality, I rapidly learned that, they would never be on time, dissapeared for 2 hour lunches, had more days off than they worked, went to sleep on the desk with phones ringing around them. I could go on but fortunatly I found a very grateful workforce all over the age of 40. There are plenty of people around that will do these jobs we are just targeting the wrong people. I know that the goverment is targeting employment for youngsters but maybe they should be worthy of the efforts that are being put up for them. from Auntie.

[kdubya]

I can only speak as I see, and I too had hundreds of applications for vacancy's at my business, they sparkled at interviews and looked to me to have masses of personality, I rapidly learned that, they would never be on time, dissapeared for 2 hour lunches, had more days off than they worked, went to sleep on the desk with phones ringing around them. I could go on but fortunatly I found a very grateful workforce all over the age of 40. There are plenty of people around that will do these jobs we are just targeting the wrong people. I know that the goverment is targeting employment for youngsters but maybe they should be worthy of the efforts that are being put up for them. from Auntie.

Our apprentices go away to HMS Sultan for TWO years they dont shy off as they cant, so basically we remove them from their parents send them to the other end of the country from day one daunting to say the least for them,after the two years they come back and progress the final years of their apprenticeship,I should imagine the drop out rate is almost zero,perhaps our selection process (but most probably the quality of our training and pay scales for our apprentices make our opportunities desirable) so like you, I see as I see, seems its becoming a national sport to kick down our young.

 

KW

[grrclark]

Mixture of every man and his dog who could hold a trool suddenly becoming a tradesman,many good men getting away from it when things were bad and the old school are at or near to retirement.As i said,in 5 years ive seen one apprentice and he has to be titfed even in his 4th year which is all too common of the youth of today.

I can see the too much too fast side also,and thats where the shadier lads come in and they will throw it up to make money.

Cheers. I served my time doing mechanical engineering, but it wasn't a standard apprenticeship. The employer, Exxon, were more focussed on getting us through college as a numbers game and not really about teaching a trade.

 

I see that as similar to an awful lot of businesses now and the actual skills bit gets lost in the nonsense of certificates that mean hee haw in the real world.

 

Fortunately i worked with some good old school journeymen and learned a lot, but as they retire out of the business there isn't really the same mentors for the future generations of apprentices.

 

As it happens when Piper Alpha blew up and the first gulf war kicked off Exxon ditched us at the end of our time and it was only then i realised how little my apprenticeship was worth.

 

Fortunately i found another route to make my living.

 

I do think half the battle is the businesses don't commit to kids and of course the kids don't commit back so it is doomed to fail.

 

KW, your firm obviously do commit to a good training program and more power to their elbow.

[Psyxologos]

Another recent skills shortage was for sandwich makers ....!!!!!!!

 

so the company got a load of Hungarians to make them. That is not a skills shortage, it is an attitude problem.

 

I completely agree.

 

Slightly different skill, but I was talking to 'the only true stonemason'* in North Lancashire and South Cumbria last week. He explained to me that most people who call themselves stonemasons are most often dry wallers or something similar. He learned the job from his dad (a very famous guy around here, he was world powerlifting champion twice) and he told me that young guys are not interested in the craft anymore. He explained that there is a 5 year apprenticeship after which one is only considered an 'improver'. He told me that young lads do not have the patience to wait that long (although the money is not bad at all) despite having no other marketable skills. They simply prefer to work on fast food chains or whatever comes their way for much less as it is easier work. He has tried to offer apprenticips three times in the last five years, the longest someone lasted was 7 months. He is currently training a young Latvian guy for the last 18 months. He revealed to me he used to be a supporter of the party I should not name but is now in a moral dilema. It goes without saying he got a very long lecture on my views on the issue, and he seemed to take a lot in

 

He was upset telling me how his trade is a dying one as it is actually cheaper to for example order a stone feature like a coving or a stone ball (I understood that to refer to these ornamental ones you use in gardens and structures) from China and ship it over. He did however explain the difference on the quality of the stone, the beauty of handmade turned stone to machine made and said that there are still fortunes to be made in a small but rather lush market. We went to Carlisle, the last quarry near me where decent sandstone could be obtained, and looked at the prices. I was astonished. As he was a long standing customer there, we bought (what to me is) a huge piece of sandstone that was as close to my original 'Lancaster Sandstone' in the way the stone runs etc from their 'offcuts' for £50. He told me that if we were to buy it from their 'proper' pile it would cost over £250.I have no way to verify this.

 

He worked his socks off for two days to change the stone that was under one of the windows (do you call them cills?) in my Victorian house free of charge as he owed my friend a favour (I paid for the scaffold as it was on the second storey and had to support the window) but told me that such a job would set me back at least a very high three figure number, if not a four figure. Needless to say he left with a few brace of game, a couple of venison haunches and my favourite wine from my wine cellar.

 

Now, I know this might sound simplistic, but who in their right mind reject an opportunity to learn something that useful and creative to work in a burger place?

 

 

 

 

*This is actually the words of a very close friend who is in the building trade for the last 40 or so years in this country and he knows what he is talking about.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Psyxologos

[Vince Green]

Its not just brickies though, all the trades are going the same way because of a number of reasons. Just one reason round here is that they closed all the technical colleges or converted them into universities doing media studies, travel and tourism or beauty and nutrition instead.

 

My yougest son investigated apprenticeships last year when he left school. There aren't any, not real ones anyway, most are just flim flam getting kids to work for peanuts in warehouses and offices.

[kdubya]

 

I completely agree.

 

Slightly different skill, but I was talking to 'the only true stonemason'* in North Lancashire and South Cumbria last week. He explained to me that most people who call themselves stonemasons are most often dry wallers or something similar. He learned the job from his dad (a very famous guy around here, he was world powerlifting champion twice) and he told me that young guys are not interested in the craft anymore. He explained that there is a 5 year apprenticeship after which one is only considered an 'improver'. He told me that young lads do not have the patience to wait that long (although the money is not bad at all) despite having no other marketable skills. They simply prefer to work on fast food chains or whatever comes their way for much less as it is easier work. He has tried to offer apprenticips three times in the last five years, the longest someone lasted was 7 months. He is currently training a young Latvian guy for the last 18 months. He revealed to me he used to be a supporter of the party I should not name but is now in a moral dilema. It goes without saying he got a very long lecture on my views on the issue, and he seemed to take a lot in

 

He was upset telling me how his trade is a dying one as it is actually cheaper to for example order a stone feature like a coving or a stone ball (I understood that to refer to these ornamental ones you use in gardens and structures) from China and ship it over. He did however explain the difference on the quality of the stone, the beauty of handmade turned stone to machine made and said that there are still fortunes to be made in a small but rather lush market. We went to Carlisle, the last quarry near me where decent sandstone could be obtained, and looked at the prices. I was astonished. As he was a long standing customer there, we bought (what to me is) a huge piece of sandstone that was as close to my original 'Lancaster Sandstone' in the way the stone runs etc from their 'offcuts' for £50. He told me that if we were to buy it from their 'proper' pile it would cost over £250.I have no way to verify this.

 

He worked his socks off for two days to change the stone that was under one of the windows (do you call them cills?) in my Victorian house free of charge as he owed my friend a favour (I paid for the scaffold as it was on the second storey and had to support the window) but told me that such a job would set me back at least a very high three figure number, if not a four figure. Needless to say he left with a few brace of game, a couple of venison haunches and my favourite wine from my wine cellar.

 

Now, I know this might sound simplistic, but who in their right mind reject an opportunity to learn something that useful and creative to work in a burger place?

 

 

 

 

*This is actually the words of a very close friend who is in the building trade for the last 40 or so years in this country and he knows what he is talking about.

What a strange post, you whinge about no one wanting an apprenticeship,then in the next breath you say the trade no one wants an apprenticeship in is dying, my god that's like saying that turkey's are refusing to vote for Christmas,and then to cap it all you say the Chinese are undercutting us with the price of material,easy answer there is for the prices to drop, to compete,the facts regard apprenticeship in this country is simply that there are not enough, we are no longer an industrial nation and we only create in the service sector, which is low intellect, low skill, and most useful of all to the establishment low pay, hence the influx of those who cant spell "sills"

 

 

KW

[sako751sg]

What a strange post, you whinge about no one wanting an apprenticeship,then in the next breath you say the trade no one wants an apprenticeship in is dying, my god that's like saying that turkey's are refusing to vote for Christmas,and then to cap it all you say the Chinese are undercutting us with the price of material,easy answer there is for the prices to drop, to compete,the facts regard apprenticeship in this country is simply that there are not enough, we are no longer an industrial nation and we only create in the service sector, which is low intellect, low skill, and most useful of all to the establishment low pay, hence the influx of those who cant spell "sills"

 

 

KW

 

Own goal.

Cills is the old spelling and has been used for centuries.Both are good,but cills is right.

[kdubya]

 

Own goal.

Cills is the old spelling and has been used for centuries.Both are good,but cills is right.

not quite sill is THE recognised spelling in dictionaries,if you want to go back enough you could get to syl and further than that uuh uuh

 

 

KW

Edited December 10, 2014 by kdubya

[sako751sg]

not quite sill is THE recognised spelling in dictionaries,if you want to go back enough you could get to syl and further than that uuh uuh

 

 

KW

 

Dont worry fella,keep denying you were wrong that cill is a correct spelling,as is sill.

Better bring it up with all those companies who still advertise them as cills.

Nice OG though.

[kdubya]

 

Dont worry fella,keep denying you were wrong that cill is a correct spelling,as is sill.

Better bring it up with all those companies who still advertise them as cills.

Nice OG though.

yeh but the rest was right anyway pick through this

 

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/151767/which-is-correct-cill-or-sill

 

KW

Edited December 10, 2014 by kdubya

[Psyxologos]

 

Dont worry fella,keep denying you were wrong that cill is a correct spelling,as is sill.

Better bring it up with all those companies who still advertise them as cills.

Nice OG though.

 

Please do not stop him. He is rather amusing...