Unannounced security checks

[bostonmick]

maybe we get more **** than others because we hold firearms.these can and have on many occasions killed or seriously injured. in the past forty plus years I can only recall one visit by the fao that was not for renewal so I don't think I am being unduly picked on.we live in a very different world these days from when doors were not locked and guns were leaning in the corner of the living room perhaps some of you are not old enough to remember that.but we also never had the amount of crazy's that inhabit the world today or at least they did not live in this country.

[welsh1]

maybe we get more **** than others because we hold firearms.these can and have on many occasions killed or seriously injured. in the past forty plus years I can only recall one visit by the fao that was not for renewal so I don't think I am being unduly picked on.we live in a very different world these days from when doors were not locked and guns were leaning in the corner of the living room perhaps some of you are not old enough to remember that.but we also never had the amount of crazy's that inhabit the world today or at least they did not live in this country.

So should car owners have random visits by the police to make sure their cars are secure?after all there are far more people killed or injured by motor vehicles,as for "crazy's" as you call them there are probably just the same amount as there always were ,but with social media you are now more aware of them.

[bostonmick]

So should car owners have random visits by the police to make sure their cars are secure?after all there are far more people killed or injured by motor vehicles,as for "crazy's" as you call them there are probably just the same amount as there always were ,but with social media you are now more aware of them.

Do you really believe that car drivers are not monitored have you never heard of anpr cameras.speed cameras. Police patrols both marked and unmarked on all our roads 24 hours a day.We are all being monitored every day in one way or another.

[Blunderbuss]

maybe we get more **** than others because we hold firearms.these can and have on many occasions killed or seriously injured. in the past forty plus years I can only recall one visit by the fao that was not for renewal so I don't think I am being unduly picked on.we live in a very different world these days from when doors were not locked and guns were leaning in the corner of the living room perhaps some of you are not old enough to remember that.but we also never had the amount of crazy's that inhabit the world today or at least they did not live in this country.

Inner city kids stab each other with cheap kitchen knives and jihadi wannabes decapitate soldiers with them. Should everyone else who owns one have to bend over and take a shafting from the police? What is the difference with legally held and properly secured firearms, apart from the numbers involved? When will we learn that shooting is a lawful activity, that we have nothing to be ashamed of and that we don't have to accept anything other than scrupulous impartiality and fair treatment from the police. If they can't turn up announced and demand to see my breadknife, chainsaw, cricket bat etc with out a warrant, why should they expect to do so with legally held, licensed guns? Can they (and we judging by some on here) not see the glaring difference between lawfully held sporting equipment and criminal/terrorist firearms?

[Guest stevo]

 

You have the defence of returning from the RFD then. Just like if you'd just bought a massive knife that would be illegal to have with you without reasonable excuse, the reasonable excuse was you were transporting it from where you'd just bought it. Your example also requires the officer in question to know the legislation regarding firearms/ammunition If you don't think you'd be questioned about any kind of ammo on your person following getting pulled you may be in for a shock

 

Leaving shotgun cartridges in a vehicle over night/unattended during the day (in a residential estate/town/city location), unless in a locked garage etc may not be illegal, but its not a very good idea (IMO) and if your FLD got wind of it i'd expect them to question you about it.

so what about when you go pigeon shooting , do you take every cartridge with you into the field , or do you keep some spare in your boot ?

[bostonmick]

Inner city kids stab each other with cheap kitchen knives and jihadi wannabes decapitate soldiers with them. Should everyone else who owns one have to bend over and take a shafting from the police? What is the difference with legally held and properly secured firearms, apart from the numbers involved? When will we learn that shooting is a lawful activity, that we have nothing to be ashamed of and that we don't have to accept anything other than scrupulous impartiality and fair treatment from the police. If they can't turn up announced and demand to see my breadknife, chainsaw, cricket bat etc with out a warrant, why should they expect to do so with legally held, licensed guns? Can they (and we judging by some on here) not see the glaring difference between lawfully held sporting equipment and criminal/terrorist firearms?

I think you may find that the police do stop and search of people in the inner cities.Not just for knives.All you are being asked to do is store your guns as the regulations ask and all they are doing with this type of check is ensuring that you are. If you and others on here feel so strongly that you are being treated unfairly by the police forces have you written a letter of complaint to your chief constable your fao and the ipcc. And explaining why you are beyond reproach.

[welsh1]

Do you really believe that car drivers are not monitored have you never heard of anpr cameras.speed cameras. Police patrols both marked and unmarked on all our roads 24 hours a day.We are all being monitored every day in one way or another.

Do the police randomly knock on car owners doors and ask to check their security and the VIN number of their vehicle?Do they ask the car owner where he keeps his keys to the huge lump of metal that is capable of killing in the right hands?Do the police put out statements that car owners will be randomly checked because of the terrorist threat?After all a vehicle was used to kill a British soldier, one was also used in Paris the other week.

 

Why are some of the most law abiding people in the country treated in this way?why should they have a disruption in their life by a police officer, or even a civilian knocking on their door in the evening to check that their security is ok, and then ask them leading questions about stressful episodes they may be having for what seems like no justification,if an officer wants to visit me then he has my telephone number on file ,he can call and make an appointment at a time that would be convenient to myself not a time that they feel is convienient because they work strange shift patterns.

 

The police already consider me suitable to hold firearms by issuing my FAC if they have reason they will remove said FAC and firearms,so these random checks are a waste of time.The sooner everyone who has a knock on their door from the police to check their firearms asks them to come back at a later date,the sooner the police will realise that we know the law on entry to our properties and they will soon stop because of the time wasted having to visit everyone twice.Nothing to hide nothing to fear is not the answer.

Edited January 20, 2015 by welsh1

[Guest stevo]

Do the police randomly knock on car owners doors and ask to check their security and the VIN number of their vehicle?Do they ask the car owner where he keeps his keys to the huge lump of metal that is capable of killing in the right hands?Do the police put out statements that car owners will be randomly checked because of the terrorist threat?After all a vehicle was used to kill a British soldier, one was also used in Paris the other week.

 

Why are some of the most law abiding people in the country treated in this way?why should they have a disruption in their life by a police officer, or even a civilian knocking on their door in the evening to check that their security is ok, and then ask them leading questions about stressful episodes they may be having for what seems like no justification,if an officer wants to visit me then he has my telephone number on file ,he can call and make an appointment at a time that would be convenient to myself not a time that they feel is convienient because they work strange shift patterns.

 

The police already consider me suitable to hold firearms by issuing my FAC if they have reason they will remove said FAC and firearms,so these random checks are a waste of time.The sooner everyone who has a knock on their door from the police to check their firearms asks them to come back at a later date,the sooner the police will realise that we know the law on entry to our properties and they will soon stop because of the time wasted having to visit everyone twice.Nothing to hide nothing to fear is not the answer.

I agree 100% . why do we seem to worry about the antis, police, ACPO , and government trying to place restrictions on our sport/hobby when our own community is doing rolling over and doing a grand job of it themselves buy going totally OTT in there interpretations of the law . I know people are only trying to be law biding . but to do that you just need to follow the law that's already in place

Edited January 20, 2015 by stevo

[bostonmick]

Do the police randomly knock on car owners doors and ask to check their security and the VIN number of their vehicle?Do they ask the car owner where he keeps his keys to the huge lump of metal that is capable of killing in the right hands?Do the police put out statements that car owners will be randomly checked because of the terrorist threat?After all a vehicle was used to kill a British soldier, one was also used in Paris the other week.

 

Why are some of the most law abiding people in the country treated in this way?why should they have a disruption in their life by a police officer, or even a civilian knocking on their door in the evening to check that their security is ok, and then ask them leading questions about stressful episodes they may be having for what seems like no justification,if an officer wants to visit me then he has my telephone number on file ,he can call and make an appointment at a time that would be convenient to myself not a time that they feel is convienient because they work strange shift patterns.

 

The police already consider me suitable to hold firearms by issuing my FAC if they have reason they will remove said FAC and firearms,so these random checks are a waste of time.The sooner everyone who has a knock on their door from the police to check their firearms asks them to come back at a later date,the sooner the police will realise that we know the law on entry to our properties and they will soon stop because of the time wasted having to visit everyone twice.Nothing to hide nothing to fear is not the answer.

No I do not believe that they do knock on car owners doors at random.And yes correct again a car is fully capable of injuring or killing a person.However that is not the purpose for which they are manufactured. Unlike a firearm. Also on what evidence do you claim that as shooters we are the most law abiding people in society. Many holders have criminal records you know but the law does not totally discriminate them.As I said we are all monitored as we go about our daily lives in one way or another.Perhaps to keep us on a par with say car owners maybe the police should fit safety monitoring cameras in every firearm holders house.surely you can't complain about that as you have had them watching you for years now on the street and the highways without giving you cause to complain.

[Kes]

I think you may find that the police do stop and search of people in the inner cities.Not just for knives.All you are being asked to do is store your guns as the regulations ask and all they are doing with this type of check is ensuring that you are. If you and others on here feel so strongly that you are being treated unfairly by the police forces have you written a letter of complaint to your chief constable your fao and the ipcc. And explaining why you are beyond reproach.

I think you will find a lot of people made this precise point and the CA managed to get to some 300+ MP.s and the 'initiative' was effectively destroyed, except that there are Chief Constables who believe that ACPO, not the public and their representatives, set their force's agenda.

If you willingly cooperate where basic freedoms are infringed you have no freedom, because you deserve none.

For the avoidance of doubt this thread is not only about secure gun storage but the right and need to check storage without 'good reason' - as a firearm cert holder I am sure you can work out what might be 'good reason' in this context. Equally you will know that police can give advice on safe storage but HO states that storage of approved weapons is the certificate holders responsibility. Since I moved and mentioned this in my letter to the police I have not had a check visit. I hope they know by now, I abide by the law and sensible advice to support it, equally I wont bend over, the difference is, to me at least, crucial.

[Blunderbuss]

I think you may find that the police do stop and search of people in the inner cities.Not just for knives.

 

Yes, but you've entirely missed the point, they don't turn up unannounced on Mrs Miggins' doorstep, demanding to search her cutlery drawer!

 

All you are being asked to do is store your guns as the regulations ask and all they are doing with this type of check is ensuring that you are.

They satisfied themselves of this when this carried out the checks and issued my license. If they have genuine evidence that this has changed they should get a warrant and sieze my guns. If not they should leave me to go about my lawful business. If they merely want to give me crime prevention advice, they should make an appointment at my convenience. I can't think of any other circumstance where the police, without evidence of wrongdoing would seek to enter someone's private dwelling on the off chance they are doing something dodgy with their legally held private property. The presumption and inference made by the unannounced nature of these visits, is that we are not to be trusted and are all potential criminals. I resent this, you are clearly fine with it.

 

If you and others on here feel so strongly that you are being treated unfairly by the police forces have you written a letter of complaint to your chief constable your fao and the ipcc. And explaining why you are beyond reproach.

 

If and when it happens to me, unlesss they can show me a very good reason why it was necessary I will do exactly that.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Blunderbuss

[drut]

How I wish I could have put my thoughts into words so precisely: "I abide by the law and sensible advice to support it,equally I wont bend over,the difference is, to me at least crucial."

I certainly agree 100%.

[welsh1]

No I do not believe that they do knock on car owners doors at random.And yes correct again a car is fully capable of injuring or killing a person.However that is not the purpose for which they are manufactured. Unlike a firearm. Also on what evidence do you claim that as shooters we are the most law abiding people in society. Many holders have criminal records you know but the law does not totally discriminate them.As I said we are all monitored as we go about our daily lives in one way or another.Perhaps to keep us on a par with say car owners maybe the police should fit safety monitoring cameras in every firearm holders house.surely you can't complain about that as you have had them watching you for years now on the street and the highways without giving you cause to complain.

Really mick? You want evidence that we are among the most law abiding,we are checked by the police they have access to all the data on you,they speak to your doctor,if you step out of line you can have your rifles removed,in the whole the shooting community are law abiding persons to argue against that is impossible.

And just to clear up your other argument,there is a difference in being monitored by cameras in public places and being visited in your own home without a just cause,inside my property is not open to the public,who I chose as a law abiding person to let into my property is my choice,and the law gives me that power,.if you wish to erode another one of your rights you go ahead and just comply,and once you have given up that right of being able to refuse entry don't complain.

[The_Engineer]

I think you will find a lot of people made this precise point and the CA managed to get to some 300+ MP.s and the 'initiative' was effectively destroyed, except that there are Chief Constables who believe that ACPO, not the public and their representatives, set their force's agenda.

If you willingly cooperate where basic freedoms are infringed you have no freedom, because you deserve none.

For the avoidance of doubt this thread is not only about secure gun storage but the right and need to check storage without 'good reason' - as a firearm cert holder I am sure you can work out what might be 'good reason' in this context. Equally you will know that police can give advice on safe storage but HO states that storage of approved weapons is the certificate holders responsibility. Since I moved and mentioned this in my letter to the police I have not had a check visit. I hope they know by now, I abide by the law and sensible advice to support it, equally I wont bend over, the difference is, to me at least, crucial.

Well put. To the folk who just wish to accept the random check as part of being a good citizen or helping the police out; I understand that mentality but that attitude leads to the degredation of your rights and ultimately the restriction of our sport/livelyhood. I for one do not appreciate being treated like I have something to hide when I do not. If the police have a valid reason to suspect I am not operating within the law they can visit me with just cause to do so. Spot checks for normal, law abiding everyday SGC and FAC holders are a very imposing and Orwelian start down a dark road.

[Breastman]

so what about when you go pigeon shooting , do you take every cartridge with you into the field , or do you keep some spare in your boot ?

Yes, what good are they going to do in my car if i'm shooting pigeons!?

 

Further, you've missed the caveat i put in my post about the car being in a built-up area (i.e. with lots of other people), if you're in the middle of nowhere and they're locked in the car out of sight then there's much less of a chance of them being stolen.

[Guest stevo]

Yes, what good are they going to do in my car if i'm shooting pigeons!?

 

Further, you've missed the caveat i put in my post about the car being in a built-up area (i.e. with lots of other people), if you're in the middle of nowhere and they're locked in the car out of sight then there's much less of a chance of them being stolen.

 

Its all " ifs and buts " if you want to carry on and make up your own set of guide lines for your own use . Thats fine mate . You crack on . But dont expect others to take much notice . There is nothing wrong with it . Its 100% legal . You dont even need to have a sgc to be in possession of shotgun shells . So i cant see where your coming from . But like i say you carry on . Whatever makes you sleep better .

 

Atb

[Breastman]

Its all " ifs and buts " if you want to carry on and make up your own set of guide lines for your own use . Thats fine mate . You crack on . But dont expect others to take much notice . There is nothing wrong with it . Its 100% legal . You dont even need to have a sgc to be in possession of shotgun shells . So i cant see where your coming from . But like i say you carry on . Whatever makes you sleep better .

 

Atb

Yeah, doesn't seem like you're taking much notice

 

If i'm wrong and have followed common sense my guidelines and i'm pulled, nothing happens. If you're wrong and you get pulled Like you say, you do things your way, i'll do things mine

[Guest stevo]

Im quite sure i will be fine .

 

Atb

[hawkfanz]

had a walk on one of my perms this week and farmer tells me,having only renewed sgc recently,old bill came to farm sat am to check him out,he weren,t in but they came back sun to make there random check,so Cheshire are doing checks.

[Twistedsanity]

Changed address on mine a while back, no visit yet to check out my new cabinet(but why would they?), re-addressed cert appeared Monday, I would let my FEO in without hesitation but normal police or blunkets plastic brigade would be asked to come back when it's more convenient just like anybody else who randomly appeared on my doorstep without an appointment

[bostonmick]

Changed address on mine a while back, no visit yet to check out my new cabinet(but why would they?), re-addressed cert appeared Monday, I would let my FEO in without hesitation but normal police or blunkets plastic brigade would be asked to come back when it's more convenient just like anybody else who randomly appeared on my doorstep without an appointment

I am guessing you do not have many visitors if you operate a booking system to visit you.one question is would ask of all those who object so strongly to people just turning up at their door.How does that work when you turn up unannounced at the farmers door to ask if you can roam his Land shooting. And in most cases the farmer does not know you from Adam. Don't you just love double standards

[belly47]

I had a visit from my FEO before Christmas as I had requested for my FAC LIcence to be made an `OPEN` licence.

 

we were sat downstairs having a general chat and I asked him if he wanted to see my cabinets etc, and he replied "no need, nothing has changed since it was granted has it?" I replied that it had not and the conversation just carried on.

 

its for every individual to decide their stance on whether to let unannounced visitors in, but in my opinion there is no need for them to do it especially when terrorism is used as a smoke screen to allow them to do as they please.

[Twistedsanity]

I am guessing you do not have many visitors if you operate a booking system to visit you.one question is would ask of all those who object so strongly to people just turning up at their door.How does that work when you turn up unannounced at the farmers door to ask if you can roam his Land shooting. And in most cases the farmer does not know you from Adam. Don't you just love double standards

I have never knocked on a farmers door and asked for permission to shoot on his land and I don't take kindly to random people turning up on my doorstep either, I'm not sure where you live but I have spent or wasted way too much of my life fending off people who appear randomly with only one of two aims, to get you to join a church or more likely part with money, just because someone happens to be driving a jam sandwich or wearing a uniform wouldn't mean they are treated any differently, I take it your from up norf where you aren't constantly bombarded with salesmen, doorstep sellers and surveys with a monthly smattering of Jehovah then Mick

[Scully]

I am guessing you do not have many visitors if you operate a booking system to visit you.one question is would ask of all those who object so strongly to people just turning up at their door.How does that work when you turn up unannounced at the farmers door to ask if you can roam his Land shooting. And in most cases the farmer does not know you from Adam. Don't you just love double standards

Even friends ring first to see if I'm going to be in...wasted journey otherwise.

I have never knocked on a farmers door and asked for permission to shoot on his land and I don't take kindly to random people turning up on my doorstep either, I'm not sure where you live but I have spent or wasted way too much of my life fending off people who appear randomly with only one of two aims, to get you to join a church or more likely part with money, just because someone happens to be driving a jam sandwich or wearing a uniform wouldn't mean they are treated any differently, I take it your from up norf where you aren't constantly bombarded with salesmen, doorstep sellers and surveys with a monthly smattering of Jehovah then Mick

Agreed. I have never knocked on a farmers door either to ask for permission to shoot, and nor would I; some have signs on gates stating 'Callers by appointment only'.

I live up north where I can assure you we are just as constantly bombarded with sales people, charity workers and Jehovahs.....they don't get in either.

[Twistedsanity]

Same here Scully, all my friends know to phone or TXT before calling round if they want me to open the door