Rim Fire Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 My mate had a visit today off his FAO as he apply for a variation he wanted a 243 for fox and deer he got the odd Fallow traveling through his ground and i allso got Fallow on my ground not there all the time but they do show my mate told him about the fallow traveling on his ground and i will invite him on my ground but this wasent a good enough reason for the FAO and turned him down is just Qwent or do others have the same trouble getting a 243 he has had his 222 for 13 years and the ground he wants it on is passed for a 243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berettacocker Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Ridiculous, it's getting worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Take it further. He has shown good reason, they cannot decide that the reason isn't good enough when he has met the criteria asked of him. Tell him to contact the head of licencing and then if he has no sense take it to the chief constable. Be polite but be firm and stand his ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy1950 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Write to your Licensing dept asking them to put their reasons for the refusal in writing, quoting the relevant regulation or regulations. When that is then forwarded to you, you may wish to contact your shooting association with the paperwork. From my own experience with .243, Avon and Somerset have been asking for either, 1. completion of a range safety course, with certificate 2. completion of the DSC1 certificate 3 a mentor for 6 months. They have a hang up on deer caliber rifles out side of shooting clubs. I know of a game keeper who had an open ticket for his 222 for 20 years and refused his 243 unless he carried out one of the above. On my own renewal, they just asked me what more I would like and gave it me on an open ticket. Such is the difficulty of dealing with so many Chief Constables and their "Kingdoms" Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonker Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Write to your Licensing dept asking them to put their reasons for the refusal in writing, quoting the relevant regulation or regulations. When that is then forwarded to you, you may wish to contact your shooting association with the paperwork. From my own experience with .243, Avon and Somerset have been asking for either, 1. completion of a range safety course, with certificate 2. completion of the DSC1 certificate 3 a mentor for 6 months. They have a hang up on deer caliber rifles out side of shooting clubs. I know of a game keeper who had an open ticket for his 222 for 20 years and refused his 243 unless he carried out one of the above. On my own renewal, they just asked me what more I would like and gave it me on an open ticket. Such is the difficulty of dealing with so many Chief Constables and their "Kingdoms" Good luck. I to have had a triple for about 15 years on an open ticket. I have been asked to clear some Roe on some ground , and have been doing so with my mate, with his .270 I just did a centre fire Safety and awareness course, and sent off for a variation with the certificate, I'll let you know what happens. What a .222 is if not a centre fire I don't know. compare the ballistic charts for a 100gr norma softpoint in.243 and a 50gr nosler b/t .222, Makes you wonder Doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Find out exactly why they are refusing, then get you pal to get in touch with his shooting organisation for more guidance David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 In the circumstances write to the head of the firearms unit stating your case and asking for a detailed expalnation of the forces reasons for refusal, given the good reason you have stated. Take advice once received but when this happened to me the cert came back with a .308 on it with reasonable condition re stalking attached and aolq on everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Very odd. My shooting newbie relative in Gwent was invited out by his firearms officer to go shooting with him! That is massively generous. Maybe there is an issue that has not come out into the open or someone was having a bad day, either way, do get the facts to a shooting org like BASC to give expert guidance. Numb-nuts like me on forums cannot really give much help unfortunately. good luck to your mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 My mate had a visit today off his FAO as he apply for a variation he wanted a 243 for fox and deer he got the odd Fallow traveling through his ground and i allso got Fallow on my ground not there all the time but they do show my mate told him about the fallow traveling on his ground and i will invite him on my ground but this wasent a good enough reason for the FAO and turned him down is just Qwent or do others have the same trouble getting a 243 he has had his 222 for 13 years and the ground he wants it on is passed for a 243 Very strange...has your friend any experience of stalking and shooting deer, or done at least level 1 DSC ? I can only think it may have been this which has swayed the Officers decision. DSC 1 includes sections on the Law and Safety and it would undoubtedly help your friends cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 DSC1 is unnecessary. I do not think placing additional barriers is helpful. Go for a few stalks with an experienced stalker, that is more than enough experience and it is not mandatory to have experience, experience of centrefire rifles would be a very good idea however. Why do we constantly complain about additional barriers to firearms ownership and use and 'invent' yet more ourselves. We are pricing firearms out of the reach of many new shooters with that kind of - 'you can only join my club if '....rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) I did phone him last night after he came down off the celing haha he said he had to prove he was serious about stalking and to book some stalks and keep the receipt the FAO said he was only going by the rules which i think he was bending a little not to give him a 243 he got laid off just befor xmas where he worked for over 20 years as he said he hasent got money to spend on stalking at the moment with a family to keep Edited February 4, 2015 by Rim Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 It worries me that the police see deer differently to fox. Is this because one is edible and one is not or that one is bigger and one is smaller? Whatever reason, many forces ask for 'experience' for deer. I am of the opinion that someone has contact with the stalking industry and uses the criterion of 'qualification' as a means to restrict stalking via the issue of stalking legal calibres. The difference between deer and fox, as far as firearms (invented) guidance is concerned, needs a national challenge and a commitment from our shooting organisations to offer (free) a basic safety course, in exchange for the removal of these 'discretionary' restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Exactly, there is nothing in firearms law that differentiates fox and deer. Good reason has to be demonstrated, and if the quarry are on land you have access to and you have the permission of the holder of the shooting rights to take that quarry - bingo! Kes et al are correct, some police authorities seem to put deer in a category all of their own for some unknown reason, that's why BASC campaigned for the AOLQ condition which many forces have adopted..so go for a 243 for fox and AOLQ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Exactly, there is nothing in firearms law that differentiates fox and deer. Good reason has to be demonstrated, and if the quarry are on land you have access to and you have the permission of the holder of the shooting rights to take that quarry - bingo! Kes et al are correct, some police authorities seem to put deer in a category all of their own for some unknown reason, that's why BASC campaigned for the AOLQ condition which many forces have adopted..so go for a 243 for fox and AOLQ... hi David i have just got off the phone to him and he is a member of BASC and i told him to ring so he will be doing so today thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshMike Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 I hate seeing the usual inconsistent approach by differing forces in dealing with these sort of issues. I agree with Kes that it shouldnt be a requirement to have a "formal" qualification. I live in the Dyfed Powys area and put in a variation for a .270 after having my FAC for 8 years (largest previous calibre of .223). I have a few fallow on some ground I shoot and also access to a fair few thousand acres in the SW via a friend. No issues with the issue of my variation and no mention of additional quals. I have undertaken my DSC 1 but this is to allow me to sell to a game dealer. My mate who I shoot with has been shooting deer for 35+ years and shoots in excess of 70-80 per year, he doesnt have a formal qualification and his knowledge of deer, firearms etc is outstanding. He is also an awesome shot. Experience not a piece of paper is the key thing...unfortunately these days you seem to need the piece of paper to start and get the experience. Good luck with this and hopefully sense will prevail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 He has just phoned me and said he has spoken to BASC and and got some good advice and phoned the FAO boss and she is going to have a word this afternoon and let him know where he stands let you all know later fingers xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshMike Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markr Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 hope he gets sorted shows why everyone should be a member of BASC etc for help and guidance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 hope he gets sorted shows why everyone should be a member of BASC etc for help and guidance Sorry but for me it shows that a good knowledge of the law relating to shooting is a must. If you choose to join a shootin g organisation then that is a very positive support for shooting in general but again - there is a choice and choice = competition and competition is a spur against complacency. Until there is one shooting organisation we should recognise the other representative organisations and not be so specific. Performance is key and always should be. Great performance and reasonable fees and we could all be represented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Update The FAO has been spoken to by his boss and she has phoned my mate where she said that the ground was passed by West Mercier years ago and he recons they said there is no Deer on the ground which is a lie as I have seen them myself also this ground is in Hereford a known area for Deer ' the lady boss in question has said that if he still wants to proceed with the 243 he has to put it in writing and the FAO in question has said he WILL NOT support his application for it now if that is not being awkward I don't know what is how many other applicants has he done this to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Take photos of the deer and the slots, make sure you get time/date/grid reference .... sounds like you just need evidence to accompany the letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69chris Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 i spoke to my fao t'other day about variations and he said 'it sounds like you know what you want, i cant give you any advice as im not into shooting'...................speaks volumes doesnt it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 You can ask for a new inspection, based upon a change in circumstances - it would help the case if the owner of the land rings the police and tells them he has seen fallow deer on the ground and needs to control them. In the end the FEO will have to give way to evidence and his boss - convince her and that is all it takes plus a willingness to continue if unreasonably treated. If you are with BASC, ask them what evidence would be confirmatory and ask for a joint visit - make sure the landowner can make it. Lot of hassle for an arrogant and opinionated FEO, he obviously is not aware that deer move and populations expand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshMike Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 When I had my renewal sorted last month the firearms team mentioned that one of my permissions had no evidence of deer. Once I gave the guy the dates of the 2 fallow bucks I had shot and sent him an e-mail confirming this he seemed happy. Not really necessary as I hold an open ticket but keeps their records up to date. All good fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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