keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, KW, you don't write under the "Owen Jones" pen name do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, KW, you don't write under the "Owen Jones" pen name do you? like they say the truth hurts. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Feeling the pain, feeling the pain. You seem to live in a black and white world, are there no shades of grey with you at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm afraid the only sentence I can agree with is the first one: that is so wrong on so many levels. You completely outgun me on time and commitment to this though. Your argument is well put together but meretricious and misleading in almost every single particular. I'm not prepared to spend the hour to reply point by point, though, so you win (and all but two others on here agree with you anyway). That's a shame because good debate is healthy and hopefully educational for all involved. Are the arguments meretricious? in part they will be yes, maybe even in the majority, as it is all generalised based on a whole raft of assumptions and no doubt very different starting points. Regrettably representative of the wider debate of UK politics right now too. Are my figures going to be bang on the money? nope for similar reasons, there are so many ways in which finances can be dressed up as to make any number accurate, but I have not sought to deliberately mislead or skew. For the record do I think that the current governmental track record is as good as it has been made out? No I really don't, our deficit reduction is largely through lower borrowing costs, not structural reduction. The standard by which we measure growth is re-calibrated relative to external factors largely outside of our control, many of which are favourable so it looks better than it is. Our economic recovery is still far too heavily predicated on consumer spend and not actual production output through manufacturing, our balance of trade is still way way too much the wrong way and we have a ridiculous level of reliance on the banking sector and London as the main economic engine. By most regular measures the economic track record of this government is pretty rubbish really, but we had and still do have to some extent an exceptional global economic backdrop so it can't be measured by regular standards. Would Keynesian economics have worked? If we had continued to invest in public spending, so increasing the relative size of the state would we have had stronger growth, quite possibly yes for a while, it has worked in America where a far more aggressive period of quantitative easing was applied, but we have a very different fiscal environment. I personally believe that we are better served by by taking a different approach and reducing the size of the state, but as much for societal attitudinal reasons as well as economic ones. Idealogical? absolutely yes, but no more so than Keynesian ideology favoured by Ed Balls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 like they say the truth hurts. KW Quite obviously.. Don't **** about with my post in future please in only demonstrates your ignorance. Please come up with some salient points of your own........................if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 A Kibbutz is about the only place, possibly. I was thinking that when I typed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Quite obviously.. Don't **** about with my post in future please in only demonstrates your ignorance. Please come up with some salient points of your own........................if you can. pass me a net quick! KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Quite obviously.. Don't **** about with my post in future please in only demonstrates your ignorance. Please come up with some salient points of your own........................if you can. KW is like a grumpy granddad really, means well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 pass me a net quick! KW If its as bad a picture up there in monkey hanger land and the UKIP stronghold of Essex as you paint perhaps a Rope might be more appropriate. KW is like a grumpy granddad really, means well.. I know...we are pretty thick skinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm just fat but thanks for being polite Am i right in thinking you are Fleetwood way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Am i right in thinking you are Fleetwood way? Fleetwood as in Blackpool way? Up north, Fisherman Mike?...now that is funny He's a fully paid up member of the Cotswold elite don't you know. To FM the north is a land full of chimneys, smog and matchstick men in clogs!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Fleetwood as in Blackpool way? Up north, Fisherman Mike?...now that is funny He's a fully paid up member of the Cotswold elite don't you know. To FM the north is a land full of chimneys, smog and matchstick men in clogs!! Well actually my wife is from Bolton so I know that last bit to be true. Edited March 30, 2015 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yes, Fleetwood. The dark side... Lancashire... Hence why i asked Cotswolds, now there is a place i could live outside Yorkshire ( and there's not many!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I just think it's funny that you talk about Blackpool being up north That is a southern adventure to a land full of filthy promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) A Kibbutz is about the only place, possibly. Exactly right, and a good example, ring fenced, cashless and populated by people who have a higher principle to motivate them than personal gain. Thats when socialism does work. Maybe we should send the two Eds to a Kibbutz Edited March 30, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Sounds more like the NHS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Attach any label you like to a political ethos but in the end individual greed, avarice, jealousy and selfishness will always overcome the nobler human traits......because that is what human beings do best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Attach any label you like to a political ethos but in the end individual greed, avarice, jealousy and selfishness will always overcome the nobler human traits......because that is what human beings do best! I'm willing to believe this of politicians but would hope that we are able rise above at least two of the traits at any given time. jeez i thought I was cynical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think we all have a bit of all of those but we keep them under control. I just think it's funny that you talk about Blackpool being up north That is a southern adventure to a land full of filthy promise. Well more across from me and a bit North.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Err, yes it most certainly was. The global financial crash, that is. Caused huge government debt throughout the western world; other governments got it down, whereas our Tories made it massively worse, as they always do, by killing private sector demand when they decimate the public sector, as they always do, for purely ideological reasons. That is why they have borrowed more in 5 years that Labour did in 13, and debt is still rising. And why the Q on Q international comparators look relatively good for us now - because our economy is only just starting to pick up 8 years after the crash, whereas other flexible economies started recovering 5 years ago. If you think the debt mountain was created by Labour building too many primary schools, you're the one who needs to do a bit of actual research. Of course that's exactly the Tory propaganda line, but it's laughable economics. (As they perfectly well know; they can't believe they've been so incredibly successful spinning such a preposterous line). The more i read this the harder i try not to laugh. Tories kill private sector demand, that's normally Labour who tax the *** out of anyone that is successful and makes some money. Still waiting for an answer on the flexible economies ( shouldn't take an hour, just a few mins so no excuse ) Decimate the public sector? they've removed most of that bloated sector for no complaint. As every private company i know is running leaner and more efficiently, why should the public sector be exempt? Now be honest, you were either drinking or smoking something when you wrote it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 The more i read this the harder i try not to laugh. Tories kill private sector demand, that's normally Labour who tax the *** out of anyone that is successful and makes some money. Still waiting for an answer on the flexible economies ( shouldn't take an hour, just a few mins so no excuse ) Decimate the public sector? they've removed most of that bloated sector for no complaint. As every private company i know is running leaner and more efficiently, why should the public sector be exempt? Now be honest, you were either drinking or smoking something when you wrote it I think the argument is that the public sector is the largest single customer to the private sector in collective terms, so if you suppress public spending then it depresses the private sector. That is the Keynesian argument in times of economic recession as the private sector typically tend to move into savings mode and lock up their capital. There is a measure of truth to this, private enterprises locked up capital a little bit, but it was transitional and arguably part of a re-balancing away from excessive state contribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pothunter Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think the argument is that the public sector is the largest single customer to the private sector in collective terms, so if you suppress public spending then it depresses the private sector. That is the Keynesian argument in times of economic recession as the private sector typically tend to move into savings mode and lock up their capital. You don't actually need me... That's the USA and to some extent Germany, who recovered far quicker and better than we did. And your previous point was be I would have made too. I do feel bad lobbing in a few sentences then ducking out. Was unfair and I wish I hadn't. But I'm exclusively on a phone on which it's slow to type, and, though I have strong views, I get no pleasure from arguing about politics. So I should try harder to keep my mouth shut and stick to shooting, which is why I'm here. Apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 You don't actually need me... That's the USA and to some extent Germany, who recovered far quicker and better than we did. And your previous point was be I would have made too. I do feel bad lobbing in a few sentences then ducking out. Was unfair and I wish I hadn't. But I'm exclusively on a phone on which it's slow to type, and, though I have strong views, I get no pleasure from arguing about politics. So I should try harder to keep my mouth shut and stick to shooting, which is why I'm here. Apologies. No need for apologies and if I was on my phone it would have been a much shorter response earlier, many probably wish I was on my phone! I enjoy the debate, not for argumentative pleasure, it's good to have counter argument for balance and measure. I do get the comparison to Germany and the US, just don't necessarily agree, but do understand the argument, or at least try to. Germany has a positive balance of trade and the US is massive and in some measure the market reacts to them, so different to service driven UK. Argentina is a similar comparison with poor consequence of borrow and spend, Spain in some measure too. In any respect it isn't simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lots of lively fun debate on here so no apology needed in my opinion but takes a big man to do so . Strong views are good and some of my views have been changed by lively debate on here Respect for typing on a phone screen, prefer a full sized keyboard these days. Germany doesn't get pulled in by the whole housing thing and the US had shale gas so IMHO it's not a fair comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lots of lively fun debate on here so no apology needed in my opinion but takes a big man to do so . Strong views are good and some of my views have been changed by lively debate on here Respect for typing on a phone screen, prefer a full sized keyboard these days. Germany doesn't get pulled in by the whole housing thing and the US had shale gas so IMHO it's not a fair comparison I'm not keen to get in on this debate at all, but I think it's fair to say that it is almost impossible to directly compare the economics of any two countries, there are just too many variables, too many historical anomalies and too much statistical slight of hand by commentators to get a reliable comparison. It is also pretty pointless saying one political system is bad and another is good when in reality each have their own benefits and pitfalls - not that we have two opposing political groups anyway, as in reality our political parties are very much astride the central ground. Politics are generally pendulous and move with the needs of the majority of those bothered to vote. The only thing for sure is that pendulum swings more strongly with increasing economic and social pressure so this election, and modern politics in general, will (finally) be much more interesting this time round. COME ON YOU GREENS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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