overandunder2012 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) There is a massive lie (started by tories) that voting ukip will allow labour in.......... Ukip doesn't just steal tory votes, I am pretty sure they are stealing more labour votes than thought, as its the working classes suffering most due to the eu i think ukip hurt the torys more as for people who are already on the right its a a short leap to the far right and however you dress it up that hits the tory vote hardest and for the poor voting ukip is like turkeys voting for christmas if they think they are screwed by the torys wait till they get ukip Edited April 21, 2015 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Why do they? What do you define as the "working class" People working, not in a managerial or supervisory role. I.e. Me. They are suffering as 99% of the eu migrants are unskilled labourers, making unhealthy competition for work and forcing wages down....... Where work the poles are paid less than the locals..... Result the company try and recruit from poland before here and recently got into some kind of trouble for doing so, even when there are people here willing to work and looking for work....... Sorry should read "where I work" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 i think ukip hurt the torys more as for people who are already on the right its a a short leap to the far right and however you dress it up that hits the tory vote hardest and for the poor voting ukip is like turkeys voting for christmas if they think they are screwed by the torys wait till they get ukip How so? Raising the taxable allowance higher than any other party so taking low earners out of tax altogether? Would make me 3-5 grand richer a year if I worked the figures out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Personally I don't believe there will be another coalition irrespective of whether the conservatives gain more than half the constituencies or not.. They only need a overall majority to form a minority Government but obviously they would run the risk of not getting the commons vote when trying to pass legislation. In that respect they have no reason to alter current legislation, that which they have brought to statute is working, ( Whether other parties supporters accept it or not !) they wont need a referendum on Europe and probably wont need to present any Bills to the commons in order to maintain the status quo. Any such legislative Bills of any gravity rejected by the commons vote might result in another general election but I think that's a chance the Conservative party will take. I don't think the Monarchy would have a problem with a minority Government either after all it worked in Canada for over 80 years. I think DC has been advised of this. I don't believe, when it comes down to it voters will desert the Conservatives because for the vast majority the country, commerce, Industry, healthcare, unemployment, crime and fundamentally their own standard of living is significantly better now than it was 5 years ago. I cant imagine any sane person with a family and a mortgage would risk all that for the sake of voting for the "wrong brother" or a failed conservative alcoholic with fundamental underlying issues of racial intolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 i think ukip hurt the torys more as for people who are already on the right its a a short leap to the far right and however you dress it up that hits the tory vote hardest and for the poor voting ukip is like turkeys voting for christmas if they think they are screwed by the torys wait till they get ukip I'd love to know what you mean by 'far right'? You've used the phrase a few times to describe UKIP on various threads, can you please explain what you think constitutes 'far right' politics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) I'd love to know what you mean by 'far right'? You've used the phrase a few times to describe UKIP on various threads, can you please explain what you think constitutes 'far right' politics? This Wikipedia quote is a good start, but add 'nationalist' to the list and you have a pretty good description of ukip. Far-right politics or extreme-right politics are right-wing politics to the right of the mainstream centre right on the traditional left-right spectrum. They often involve a focus on tradition as opposed to policies and customs that are regarded as reflective of modernism. They tend to include disregard or disdain for egalitarianism, if not overt support for social inequality and social hierarchy, elements of social conservatism and opposition to most forms of liberalism and socialism. Edited April 21, 2015 by FalconFN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 This Wikipedia quote is a good start, but add 'nationalist' to the list and you have a pretty good description of ukip. Far-right politics or extreme-right politics are right-wing politics to the right of the mainstream centre right on the traditional left-right spectrum. They often involve a focus on tradition as opposed to policies and customs that are regarded as reflective of modernism. They tend to include disregard or disdain for egalitarianism, if not overt support for social inequality and social hierarchy, elements of social conservatism and opposition to most forms of liberalism and socialism. I didn't realise KW had published his auto biography......... is it on the shelves yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 I didn't realise KW had published his auto biography......... is it on the shelves yet You obviously dont do big words yet, stick in at school, as if you did you would realise my avatar says more about me that your trite comment. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) I should just point out that I don't think UKIP are actually a far right party, but they certainly are the farthest right in UK politics now that the BNP ship is sinking, and I'm sure they have attracted their fair share of the fleeing rats, but they fall short of being in the same category as other far right groups. Edited April 21, 2015 by FalconFN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) You obviously dont do big words yet, stick in at school, as if you did you would realise my avatar says more about me that your trite comment. KW On that we do agree...QED Im surprised a Fracophile would vote UKIP though and kick himself out of Europe... as suggested before... Turkey Voting for Christmas Edited April 21, 2015 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 I cant imagine any sane person with a family and a mortgage would risk all that for the sake of voting for the "wrong brother" or a failed conservative alcoholic with fundamental underlying issues of racial intolerance. Oh FM you do come out with some tripe,could you provide proof of your aspersions please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Oh FM you do come out with some tripe,could you provide proof of your aspersions please. Where have you been for the last 5 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 I cant imagine any sane person with a family and a mortgage would risk all that for the sake of voting for the "wrong brother" or a failed conservative alcoholic with fundamental underlying issues of racial intolerance. At least you're consistent Mike; when all else fails there's always good old insults to fall back on eh. I have a family and a mortgage but after a lifetime of voting Tory am voting UKIP. I am no more insane than Farage is addicted to alcohol or you to gambling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 On that we do agree...QED Im surprised a Fracophile would vote UKIP though and kick himself out of Europe... as suggested before... Turkey Voting for Christmas A Fracophile? told you to stick in at school re the big words, I take it your on a drop of the good stuff tonight? KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 A Fracophile? told you to stick in at school re the big words, I take it your on a drop of the good stuff tonight? KW Of course I have to get inebriated to dull the monotonous boredom of your incessant anti everything posts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 At least you're consistent Mike; when all else fails there's always good old insults to fall back on eh. I have a family and a mortgage but after a lifetime of voting Tory am voting UKIP. I am no more insane than Farage is addicted to alcohol or you to gambling. Why risk your family and mortgage for the sake of a mere petulant protest vote... if you love them you wont do it... You know deep down your playing Russian roulette with their welfare. Have you discussed with your wife that you are putting their future in jeopardy. ? Vote Conservative you know it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Why risk your family and mortgage for the sake of a mere petulant protest vote... if you love them you wont do it... You know deep down your playing Russian roulette with their welfare. Have you discussed with your wife that you are putting their future in jeopardy. ? Vote Conservative you know it makes sense. To suggest I'm voting UKIP out of petulance perfectly sums up all there is to say about typical tory arrogance . The rest of your post simply isn't worth replying to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 To suggest I'm voting UKIP out of petulance perfectly sums up all there is to say about typical tory arrogance . The rest of your post simply isn't worth replying to. oops obviously a sore point in your household...go on then give me three good reasons to vote for UKIP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 People working, not in a managerial or supervisory role. I.e. Me. They are suffering as 99% of the eu migrants are unskilled labourers, making unhealthy competition for work and forcing wages down. I would love to hear where you sourced the above information. I never thought that nurses, doctors, engineers and the like are unskilled labourers. I can tell you that in my everyday working life, I meet many skilled professionals from the EU. They outnumber the unskilled labourers, as you put it, by a country mile. It is like that in other sectors I have access to first hand information. Doctors, for example. Many UK nationals emigrate to Australia, usa or Canada. I know plenty of these people, first hand. We are not talking about 5%, more likely 20% perhaps more. Some I went to university with, others I taught, some were my colleagues. Sooner or later many left. The reasons are complicated and not relevant to this discussion. I could, if you want, expand, but I am afraid it will take us off course. EU unskilled labourers do earn a living here, and are many. They are working mostly in jobs the local chav pot heads are turning down. Ask any strawberry, potato, fruit, or any kind of farmer about the demographics of his workforce. Quiz him about why there are so few locals working for him. Sure, there are a few who take advantage of migrants working in sub human conditions, but the majority of farmers are struggling to recruit locally. Many are offering these places to so called 'job seekers' (a euphemism, as there is a large number of then who put no earnest effort in seeking a job) and end up with enough locals to fill a taxi....if they are lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 oops obviously a sore point in your household...go on then give me three good reasons to vote for UKIP... Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrats. Next question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 I would love to hear where you sourced the above information. I never thought that nurses, doctors, engineers and the like are unskilled labourers. I can tell you that in my everyday working life, I meet many skilled professionals from the EU. They outnumber the unskilled labourers, as you put it, by a country mile. It is like that in other sectors I have access to first hand information. Doctors, for example. Many UK nationals emigrate to Australia, usa or Canada. I know plenty of these people, first hand. We are not talking about 5%, more likely 20% perhaps more. Some I went to university with, others I taught, some were my colleagues. Sooner or later many left. The reasons are complicated and not relevant to this discussion. I could, if you want, expand, but I am afraid it will take us off course. EU unskilled labourers do earn a living here, and are many. They are working mostly in jobs the local chav pot heads are turning down. Ask any strawberry, potato, fruit, or any kind of farmer about the demographics of his workforce. Quiz him about why there are so few locals working for him. Sure, there are a few who take advantage of migrants working in sub human conditions, but the majority of farmers are struggling to recruit locally. Many are offering these places to so called 'job seekers' (a euphemism, as there is a large number of then who put no earnest effort in seeking a job) and end up with enough locals to fill a taxi....if they are lucky. Hmm I doubt very much that the skilled migrants outnumber the unskilled. It`s just statistically unlikely. Take my area. Last year I (briefly) worked at a very large warehouse. I would estimate that on my shifts approximately 1/3 were foreign workers. There is a bagel factory near me where the majority of the workforce is Polish. There are undoubtedly many other local businesses where the foreign workers outnumber or at least comprise a large percentage of the workforce. I don`t need to quiz your farmer as to why he has so few locals working for him. The answer is pretty simple. He`s offering minimum wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Hmm I doubt very much that the skilled migrants outnumber the unskilled. It`s just statistically unlikely. Take my area. Last year I (briefly) worked at a very large warehouse. I would estimate that on my shifts approximately 1/3 were foreign workers. There is a bagel factory near me where the majority of the workforce is Polish. There are undoubtedly many other local businesses where the foreign workers outnumber or at least comprise a large percentage of the workforce. I don`t need to quiz your farmer as to why he has so few locals working for him. The answer is pretty simple. He`s offering minimum wage. I was referring to the areas I work in. I am sorry. I thought I made that clear. As for the minimum wage you mention, it is an unskilled work we are talking about, and minimum wage is not offered only to migrants. It is offered to everyone. The migrants are the ones not turning their nose to it, simply because they are not work shy and would rather work for their money instead of signing on and stay at home. I am sure there will soon be the usual suspects who will say that migrants stay 10 in a house and all that, to which I would respond that the local chav pot heads stay in a home paid by you and me and get paid for doing nothing. I know who I have more respect for... Edited April 21, 2015 by Psyxologos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 I was referring to the areas I work in. I am sorry. I thought I made that clear. As for the minimum wage you mention, it is an unskilled work we are talking about, and minimum wage is not offered only to migrants. It is offered to everyone. The migrants are the ones not turning their nose to it, simply because they are not work shy and would rather work for their money instead of signing on and stay at home. I am sure there will soon be the usual suspects who will say that migrants stay 10 in a house and all that, to which I would respond that the local chav pot heads stay in a home paid by you and me and get paid for doing nothing. I know who I have more respect for... All jobs have some level of skill in them. Back in 2001 I started working in the retail merchandising industry. The hours were long, 11-12 per day and most of the time you were working away from home. Some part of that work is just shelf filling but there is also working from floor plans and planograms. Don`t get me wrong you don`t have to be a genius to do it but there is a skill to doing it well. It requires speed, attention to detail. It`s a job where you`re on your feet all day and can require quite a bit of heavy lifting. When I started the money was pretty decent. Depending on the contract (zero hours of course) I could earn anywhere between £65-£90 per day. Fast forward to today and the vast majority of merchandising companies are offering minimum wage, maybe £7.50 if you`re lucky. So 14 years later and if I was still doing the job I`d most likely be earning less than I used to back then. Take into account inflation and... well do I really have to explain? I`m curious. Have you ever worked a minimum wage job? Have you ever slogged your guts out doing something you hate just to be £30-£40 a week better off? Maybe if the minimum wage actually represented a significant improvement in the quality of life for those on it there would be more willing to work for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 All jobs have some level of skill in them. Back in 2001 I started working in the retail merchandising industry. The hours were long, 11-12 per day and most of the time you were working away from home. Some part of that work is just shelf filling but there is also working from floor plans and planograms. Don`t get me wrong you don`t have to be a genius to do it but there is a skill to doing it well. It requires speed, attention to detail. It`s a job where you`re on your feet all day and can require quite a bit of heavy lifting. When I started the money was pretty decent. Depending on the contract (zero hours of course) I could earn anywhere between £65-£90 per day. Fast forward to today and the vast majority of merchandising companies are offering minimum wage, maybe £7.50 if you`re lucky. So 14 years later and if I was still doing the job I`d most likely be earning less than I used to back then. Take into account inflation and... well do I really have to explain? I`m curious. Have you ever worked a minimum wage job? Have you ever slogged your guts out doing something you hate just to be £30-£40 a week better off? Maybe if the minimum wage actually represented a significant improvement in the quality of life for those on it there would be more willing to work for it. You raise some very important issues, and the point you are making is a very valid one. Minimum wage needs to afford those who earn it a decent living, not just survival. This is a universal truth, and any government, irrespective of political stance needs to sort this out. I do not see where you and I disagree on this. Why do some EU migrants work for a take home pay some amongst the indigenous population do not bother is a question we need to concern ourselves with. Once again, arguing that some EU migrants decide to share a house with another 8 people and therefore they can afford to take these jobs does not qualify as a valid argument. There is no proof that there is a substantial number of EU migrants who live like this, only indication that some do. On the same token, why should it be acceptable that someone who refuses to do minimum wage work is afforded free (or heavily subsidised) housing, and receive benefits on top of that? If there is work, people should take it. As I wrote before, I agree that minimum wage has to be a wage that allows people to live, not barely survive. This is where we should concentrate, not on who takes the jobs nobody else wants. I cannot see any alternative but try to improve conditions for everyone. This is the biggest challenge, and no government has concerned itself with tackling this issue. On the contrary, Labour has 'solved' the problem with 'working credits', Conservatives want to punish those on benefits. Neither approach is right, in my eyes. To answer your question, no. I have not worked a minimum wage job ever. Does this disqualifies me from expressing an opinion on work matters? I have, nevertheless worked on (higher paid) jobs that were a drag and an unbelievable strain on my mental, emotional and physical health. One does not have to lift heavy weights or work on a low paid job to stop him/her from enjoying what they do for a living, or finish their working day feeling drained and worse for wear, both physically as well as emotionally and mentally. A job is a job and many people do it amongst other reasons so they gain (better) access to material goods. This remains true whether you are working 12 hours cleaning sewers, or performing an open heart surgery. Both jobs are honourable, and essential to the rest of society. One of the main differences lays on the investment (in money, years of training, sacrifices in personal, family and social life, and a host of other things) needed prior to being appointed to either post, hence the difference in take home pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 oops obviously a sore point in your household...go on then give me three good reasons to vote for UKIP... That's pathetic Mike, even by your standards. Your typical Tory arrogance is astounding at times. My other half is voting for whichever party she chooses; at the the moment she is undecided between Labour (cos her Dad always voted labour) and not voting at all. My daughter who is eligible to vote for the first time is voting for no one, but I, unlike you, don't feel insecure enough to feel I have to ridicule others in attempts to persuade them to vote the way I want them to. I wouldn't dream of giving you even one reason to vote UKIP Mike; I don't feel the need. You put your cross where you feel it serves your wallet best, I'll put mine elsewhere for reasons of my own. Not everyone is ruled by personal greed. Not long now...don't forget to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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