fenboy Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 I cannot see where wildfowlers are hurting the shooting community by saying steel does the job just fine , I am sure the vast majority of us would choose lead if we had a choice . Fact is if anything its guns on game shoots failing to observe the law regarding steel shot on duck drives / shoots that has put the wheels in motion on a out right lead ban . There has been large numbers of duck containing lead found at game dealers and these are mainly coming in from shoots or inland flight ponds , no true wildfowlers I know sell duck and in most cases it is against club rules to do so. If the guns you refer too are using non HP steel then yes its not the best of stuff , so they need to keep the ranges sensible , a old boy up the road from me does a lot of driven shooting and was bemoaning how poor steel is , when questioned what he was using it was non hp 7s on the duck ! I gave him a box of 4s and next time I spoke to him he said it made a world of difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted May 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Yes in steel in my opinion and no one else's on live brids you wanna use a minimum of 4s in steel for pigeon duck and pheasent I personaly use 3s on ducks over 25/30yards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think we are making mountains out of mole hills, there is no mention anywhere of these coming to the UK. I have really searched as I would give them a blast as I hate reloading and shoot quite allot of ducks. I would like to try the Fiocchi 35g load though but I can't find them locally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Actually i've shot quite a few motty. I shoot some every year and have done since steel came in just to try the "latest and greatest". I also see guys shoot the stuff albeit mostly on game shoots where there are duck. Part of the problem if this is the right way of putting it, is the guns mainly use proper English guns some chambered for 2 - 2 1/2 inch cartridges. It's their choice and they think steel stinks. There are wounded birds as a consequence which no one wants to see. Steel, as you well know is ballistically inferior to lead. The difference is made up today by fast loads 3 1/2 in shells fired from bazooka guns. Bazooka's have a place on the marsh but not on a traditional game shoot. Wildfowlers pushing steel as the next best thing and supporting the horrible stuff is damaging other sections of the shooting community. Just because 'fowlers laid down and died and accepted steel doesn't mean we all have to bow down and follow suit does it? I know you are a knowledgable pigeon shooter and sure steel works but for me the stuff is a poor alternative. All this support is also potentially damaging to rifle shooters using lead. This post refers #17 http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/313291-sir-barney-white-spunner-quits-lag/?p=2833908 There are plenty of game guns that are suitable for steel. My Beretta silver Pigeon IV has taken several ducks and geese with steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted May 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 How about norgas of here he stocks fiocchi cartridges I get the 35g steel hp 70mm ones from guns and tackle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 I looked at norgas but it's 250 only, I didn't want yo buy so many just a few boxes to test. I'm going to the cla this year, I might get some down there, they will certainly be on my shopping list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughshooter Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Quite simply - load your own 12g 3" case, 616 primer, 37gr Alliant Steel, B&P 35s, 35 gram Steel 3, 6 point crimp - 1500 fps This is a Kent Fast Steel replica cartridge and very comfortable on the shoulder too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widgeon man Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Tongue in cheek. Wow fabulous, fantastic, marvellous. Steel is....well **** actually. Yes I know you marsh boys are forced to use it. You're like the Americans, i'll do what i'm told. Lead - the way ahead. Wow..... What a rediculous post! I don't think fowlers 'push' steel. We merely point out that if you change your shot size and get used to it, it can be effective. And it's legal. No one in their right mind can say steel is 'better' than lead, having said that I have shot as good a bird as I want with steel..... And heavyweight is even better....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Wow..... What a rediculous post! I don't think fowlers 'push' steel. We merely point out that if you change your shot size and get used to it, it can be effective. And it's legal. No one in their right mind can say steel is 'better' than lead, having said that I have shot as good a bird as I want with steel..... And heavyweight is even better....... Talking of which did you get the funds ok ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widgeon man Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Yes all received thanks Adrian, will get to you as soon as I get up to jules etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Yes all received thanks Adrian, will get to you as soon as I get up to jules etc.... No worries mate , as long as I have it before the geese get here ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widgeon man Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 No fear! It will be with you before then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Actually i've shot quite a few motty. I shoot some every year and have done since steel came in just to try the "latest and greatest". I also see guys shoot the stuff albeit mostly on game shoots where there are duck. Part of the problem if this is the right way of putting it, is the guns mainly use proper English guns some chambered for 2 - 2 1/2 inch cartridges. It's their choice and they think steel stinks. There are wounded birds as a consequence which no one wants to see. Steel, as you well know is ballistically inferior to lead. The difference is made up today by fast loads 3 1/2 in shells fired from bazooka guns. Bazooka's have a place on the marsh but not on a traditional game shoot. Wildfowlers pushing steel as the next best thing and supporting the horrible stuff is damaging other sections of the shooting community. Just because 'fowlers laid down and died and accepted steel doesn't mean we all have to bow down and follow suit does it? I know you are a knowledgable pigeon shooter and sure steel works but for me the stuff is a poor alternative. All this support is also potentially damaging to rifle shooters using lead. This post refers #17 http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/313291-sir-barney-white-spunner-quits-lag/?p=2833908 Whitebridges, with respect what you've written here is provocative rubbish. As you know, I'm a staunch defender of lead but I also have 10 years of experience of using steel cartridges. The early Gamebore Super Steel were not great - the new Remington Nitro Steel isn't great either - but there are plenty of bad lead loads on the market too. I've said this a million times...but once again...I've used well over a thousand Express 20 bore 24g 4's on flighted geese and duck, driven pheasant and partridge, walked up woodcock & snipe, decoyed pigeon and rabbits, bolted rabbits and clays. They kill really well. Anecdotal evidence it might be, but I can't claim to be a scientist. My experience was that at up to 40 yards you actually get cleaner kills than with lead. At 45 yards they're comparable. At over 50 yards, no one should expect consistent clean kills with steel or with lead - use a pattern plate at that range with your gun, even with full choke; it's surprising how few pellets fall within the circle. In my opinion (which is consistent with many) over 50 yards is where the odds of achieving a clean kill with any normal 2 3/4" game cartridge change from skill and judgement to sheer luck. I have zero sympathy for the driven game shots you mention, who are using 2 3/4" cartridges in 2 1/2" chambered guns. They only have themselves to blame if their shooting suffers, and they probably barely know one end of their gun from the other after elevenses. If they can afford to shoot driven game then they can afford a slightly more modern gun that can safely handle 2 3/4" cartridges, and Standard steel ones at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Tongue in cheek. Wow fabulous, fantastic, marvellous. Steel is....well **** actually. Yes I know you marsh boys are forced to use it. You're like the Americans, i'll do what i'm told. Lead - the way ahead. The trouble is some cant be bothered to update their guns to use steel shells powerful enough to do the job. Times move on and most english game guns are not capable of handling quality steel shells. Would anyone be happy doing their every day driving with a Ford Anglia or Hilman Imp. Old cars have been superceeded by modern cars that do the job we now require of them so why do game shooters insist on using out dated guns. I got rid of my English Game guns as soon as it became evident that they are not up to the mark for the amunition available today. Do I miss lead ? No and once used to steel I find I am shooting less well if I have to use lead. Too many people think you just remove lead and insert steel shells and expect to be able to shoot to the same standard. To get the best out of steel you need a different mind set , change shot sizes , faster cartridge speeds , match your shot sizes to chokes and so on. Get your head round steel and it will 95% of what lead will do and with better shot paterns I find once matched with the right ckoke you get more clean kills than I used to have with lead. Only at the very edge of range does steel fail , but it could be argued that you should not be shooting at such high birds anyway. Given the right load and choke , steel shells will kill duck after duck cleanly at 50 yards and thats as far as I want to shoot. I have used lighter 32 gr steel loads and killed a lot of pheasants out to 40 yards with very few winged birds. If steel is not working for you then blame yourself not the shells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 The trouble is some cant be bothered to update their guns to use steel shells powerful enough to do the job. Times move on and most english game guns are not capable of handling quality steel shells. Would anyone be happy doing their every day driving with a Ford Anglia or Hilman Imp. Old cars have been superceeded by modern cars that do the job we now require of them so why do game shooters insist on using out dated guns. I got rid of my English Game guns as soon as it became evident that they are not up to the mark for the amunition available today. Do I miss lead ? No and once used to steel I find I am shooting less well if I have to use lead. Too many people think you just remove lead and insert steel shells and expect to be able to shoot to the same standard. To get the best out of steel you need a different mind set , change shot sizes , faster cartridge speeds , match your shot sizes to chokes and so on. Get your head round steel and it will 95% of what lead will do and with better shot paterns I find once matched with the right ckoke you get more clean kills than I used to have with lead. Only at the very edge of range does steel fail , but it could be argued that you should not be shooting at such high birds anyway. Given the right load and choke , steel shells will kill duck after duck cleanly at 50 yards and thats as far as I want to shoot. I have used lighter 32 gr steel loads and killed a lot of pheasants out to 40 yards with very few winged birds. If steel is not working for you then blame yourself not the shells. Agree 100%, you obviously have experience and are pragmatic about steel, being pro-lead doesn't mean you have to be anti-steel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 "Wildfowlers pushing steel as the next best thing and supporting the horrible stuff is damaging other sections of the shooting community." Although the 'fowlers have no choice - I happen to think they've done us proud - I do think that WBs has a point - and have noted his initial "tongue in cheek". Simply playing the devil's advocate, if I were on a committee whose remit was to independently investigate the ongoing use of lead shot but I was personally minded to ensure it had no future and it was my job to write the committee's conclusion, I would end it by saying something like: In addition to the previous findings, it has become the norm for many shooters who have no legal requirement to use non toxic shot (NTS) are using steel by choice as they find it effective - both in the field on quarry species and also on cost grounds. This fact reflects that steel pellets now meet the four requirements initially raised before any NTS could be considered as a viable alternative to lead shot: Namely; it must be non toxic, safe to use, affordable and effective. Consequently, this committee can reach no other conclusion other than that as steel pellets are a viable alternative to those of lead, the latter should and must be banned from all shooting disciplines as soon as is feasible and after which time its use should be made illegal. My reaction to that would simply be: Well thanks a bunch, Guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 "Wildfowlers pushing steel as the next best thing and supporting the horrible stuff is damaging other sections of the shooting community." Although the 'fowlers have no choice - I happen to think they've done us proud - I do think that WBs has a point - and have noted his initial "tongue in cheek". Simply playing the devil's advocate, if I were on a committee whose remit was to independently investigate the ongoing use of lead shot but I was personally minded to ensure it had no future and it was my job to write the committee's conclusion, I would end it by saying something like: In addition to the previous findings, it has become the norm for many shooters who have no legal requirement to use non toxic shot (NTS) are using steel by choice as they find it effective - both in the field on quarry species and also on cost grounds. This fact reflects that steel pellets now meet the four requirements initially raised before any NTS could be considered as a viable alternative to lead shot: Namely; it must be non toxic, safe to use, affordable and effective. Consequently, this committee can reach no other conclusion other than that as steel pellets are a viable alternative to those of lead, the latter should and must be banned from all shooting disciplines as soon as is feasible and after which time its use should be made illegal. My reaction to that would simply be: Well thanks a bunch, Guys. Steel is toxic, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 There are plenty of game guns that are suitable for steel. My Beretta silver Pigeon IV has taken several ducks and geese with steel. Yes sure there are. Some are specifically made with steel in mind but older classic English guns weren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I cannot see where wildfowlers are hurting the shooting community by saying steel does the job just fine , I am sure the vast majority of us would choose lead if we had a choice . Fact is if anything its guns on game shoots failing to observe the law regarding steel shot on duck drives / shoots that has put the wheels in motion on a out right lead ban . There has been large numbers of duck containing lead found at game dealers and these are mainly coming in from shoots or inland flight ponds , no true wildfowlers I know sell duck and in most cases it is against club rules to do so. If the guns you refer too are using non HP steel then yes its not the best of stuff , so they need to keep the ranges sensible , a old boy up the road from me does a lot of driven shooting and was bemoaning how poor steel is , when questioned what he was using it was non hp 7s on the duck ! I gave him a box of 4s and next time I spoke to him he said it made a world of difference. As more and more steel is used this could give the an impression that steel is becoming acceptable and the norm. A precedent is then set and it becomes easier to ban lead as shooters have an alternative evidenced by the volume of steel game shell sales. "I am sure the vast majority of us would choose lead if we had a choice" . This is a key message and why oh why can't we be treated the same as per Scotland. Yes, it wasn't good press regarding the lead shot duck. I believe the major problem was a a couple of seasons ago. Hopefully more recent findings show this has been eradicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) Wow..... What a rediculous post! I don't think fowlers 'push' steel. We merely point out that if you change your shot size and get used to it, it can be effective. And it's legal. No one in their right mind can say steel is 'better' than lead, having said that I have shot as good a bird as I want with steel..... And heavyweight is even better....... You mean "ridiculous". "Push" is your word not mine. What I see is 'fowlers" putting up with steel and no fight back.. Edited May 29, 2015 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Quote "As more and more steel is used this could give the an impression that steel is becoming acceptable and the norm." That is because it is acceptable and does the job in a sport that demands more from its cartridges than most other forms of shooting. To say there is no fight back to keep steel is daft. There are studies after studies that show waterfowl are posioned by lead pellets. So why "fight back ". If you doubt it then keep some ducks and allow them access to lead pellets and find out for yourself. When we have advances in hi tech for a TV or PC or car you go out and buy a new TV ect that will handle the new Technology, why should it be any different with guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I went out last year and perpouse bought a steel proofed under over as its only a matter of time that steel will be kaw to shoot with and you can essy pick up a brand new cheap brand steel proofed gun for less than 400 pound because I did. But what makes me laugh with the local marshes around the fens Lincolnshire and norfolk a few of them is used for live firing and bombing and military exercises from military air carft from us and the yanks from there bases in the uk so what effect do that have on the animals on the marshes bit of the government calling the kettle black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I went out last year and perpouse bought a steel proofed under over as its only a matter of time that steel will be kaw to shoot with and you can essy pick up a brand new cheap brand steel proofed gun for less than 400 pound because I did. But what makes me laugh with the local marshes around the fens Lincolnshire and norfolk a few of them is used for live firing and bombing and military exercises from military air carft from us and the yanks from there bases in the uk so what effect do that have on the animals on the marshes bit of the government calling the kettle black Well done littlerob, it is amazing that this point hasn't been made before. I bet it hasn't been discussed by the LAG! Most estuaries are used for disposal of rubbish, sewage, god knows what else, and I wonder what effect depleted uranium shells have on wildfowl?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.