Euget123 Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hello folks,Decided to do some load testing for my new 17 hornet this week.Hodgun lists lil gun powder min 9.7 gr to max 10.0.I started at 9.0 just to be sure and was still getting bad pressure signs!(very sticky bolt)Backed of to 8.8 grains,no better actually had gas marks around primer pocket!Through some carful testing got down to 8.5gr today,this load shows no sign of pressure and shoots great(four shots touching and one flyer which was my fault).My question is is this ok?or should i be looking for other issues?Would appreciate you thoughts.Thankyou in advanceETP.s hopeing to borrow a chrono tomorrow and find out what velocity im getting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Did you check case length? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euget123 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Yes all case bellow max of 1.350 Some minor variation but all at 1.34 +/- a few thousanths! ET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Don't worry about it you did the right thing. I don't like this lilgun stuff. It does funny things on to many occasions I have read. Can not a standard extruded be used? Might be more predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euget123 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Is there an issue with running so far below min level!if rounds are shooting ok? ET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRYAN3 Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 DON'T run below minimum. Its as dangerous as running over maximum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 DON'T run below minimum. Its as dangerous as running over maximum. Only if you aren't generating enough pressure. The 17's are very spikey and little things can make big differences. If you have thick brass and a tight chamber i can see being under the minimum. This case does seem a bit out of the norm, but let's see what the velocity is. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euget123 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hodgun also shows data for h110 This runs at lower pressure according to there data!but i believe it is a faster burning powder! Ive access to this powder to!would it be wise to start at minimum level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Yes, 110 is a very nice powder, fast burning but very consistent. If you can get access to a chronograph that would give you a better indication of how the loads are performing. 8gr of H110 should give you around 3173fps according to the Hodgdon info. I assume you're using 20g V-Max and not seating them beyond the COAL of 1.715" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euget123 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Yes, 110 is a very nice powder, fast burning but very consistent. If you can get access to a chronograph that would give you a better indication of how the loads are performing. 8gr of H110 should give you around 3173fps according to the Hodgdon info. I assume you're using 20g V-Max and not seating them beyond the COAL of 1.715"Sorry should have said, yes 20 gr vmax and seated at 1.715!Will get them over chrony at the start of nxt week and will no more!may load a view with h110 aswell and test them out! Was pleased with accuracy of 8.5 gr load!just dnt want to be doing anything dangerous! Thanks Et Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 DON'T run below minimum. Its as dangerous as running over maximum. This is true but you should qualify it minimum charge levels are usually stated for a number of reasons, pressure being one of them The other and equally important is case fill ratio a lower the case fill ration the more dangerous it can become due to detonation, a phenomenon where the entire charge burns at once causing huge pressure spikes and rifle action failure this is unlikely to be the case in the 17 hornet using Lil'Gun as most loads are very high case fill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRYAN3 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 This is true but you should qualify it minimum charge levels are usually stated for a number of reasons, pressure being one of them The other and equally important is case fill ratio a lower the case fill ration the more dangerous it can become due to detonation, a phenomenon where the entire charge burns at once causing huge pressure spikes and rifle action failure this is unlikely to be the case in the 17 hornet using Lil'Gun as most loads are very high case fill Bewsher. You say that I should qualify my statement. WRONG,sorry. I am not qualified to be giving specific advice on specific calibres,loads,reloading practices. The only problem that I could have mentioned confidently is that of the possibility of the case failing to obturate thereby allowing the gases to blow back past the cartridge case. Sometimes it is better for Folks to research and learn from recognised qualified publications. So although you are right-you are wrong. Regards Bryan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Sorry a blanket "do not go below minimum book stated charge levels" is not always correct, its good advice which is why I didn't say "you are wrong" but without the background of WHY you shouldn't do this it doesn't mean anything and doesn't help someone with a particular set of components and hardware that have produced the unusual signs he has seen As you say Under pressure is a problem and case obturation is key but he is clearly achieving that form his description Over pressure is a problem and he has backed off to a point that signs are no longer showing...also good practice He appears that he is "under book minimum" but doing so in a very small case that even at 8.0gr of Lil'gun is giving a significant case fill ratio which is the other major factor when considering starting loads All the publications in the world won't produce the symptoms he has produced and rectified Without understanding the principals of internal ballistics and applying them TO YOUR RIFLE AND COMPONENTS you can be equally dangerous consider the people who persist on loading to book max despite the stiff bolt or extractor marks on their brass "cos the book says its OK" this scenario is no different but the chap has had the good sense to follow protocol and STOP and go back, he also had the sense to ask the questions The Lee 2nd Edition tells people not to neck size but doesn't go so far as to explain why No "manual" has ever gone into detail of the scenarios of tight necked chambers and "no size brass".... No manual I have ever seen goes into low charge pistol or shotgun powders in rifle cases with heavy bullets to produce safe subsonic ammo..... There are things that you can, will and should learn outside of the readily available reloading manuals which are in my mind far too basic You are correct in your advice I never disputed that But please don't tell me "you are wrong" because I clarified why your advice it is good advice but took to the time to explain why there are scenarios like this one where it is not practicable especially when preceded by "I am not qualified to be giving advice" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRYAN3 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Bewsher. I stand by my previous post,1st sentence. I am not knowledgable enough or articulate enough to elaborate to the extent that you have. I agree with what you are saying above. I have never reloaded anything smaller than .22-250. I thank you for taking the time to give your advice for the benefit of everyone. Bryan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I have driven 3 rifles in 17 Hornet towards and on one occasion, well beyond its limits and LIlgun was nasty in it. Charge weight variation well within the accuracy and precision offered by some reloading scales would go from a safe load to a blown primer. I'd steer well clear of Lilgun. H110 was a powder I would have liked to have tried and I suspect ideal but at the time i wasnt in the mood to pop a lb tub for 100 grains of powder and stayed with powder I had open, specifically the slower H4198 with 25's which was a steady eddy load of great reliability in what is a twitchy case. 17 Hornet is like all small cases, it requires very careful powder measure consistency and is very hard to make it reliably work as was 'intended' by the designer. The brass quality, specifically primer pocket variability made it hard work to live with as a test gun although the second batch of ammo on the third gun a year after the first was different. It ran 150 fps slower that the original batch in the same barrel side by side and the primer pockets were deeper. It was also smoky from the muzzle and accuracy had diminished, again, in side by side testing with an older batch. The smaller you make something, the more critical tolerances become, its the same across the whole world of engineering and mass loading, even home loading tools are starting to struggle.I am glad you wrote that as some of it confirms some of my reservations (purely from reading) of lilgun. H110 has been forgiving at max end loads in 22hornet and 357.H4227 now discontinued was forgiving too at upper levels. I wondered if a2400 would of use in the 17? The 17 rem did great on blc2 but I should think it would give low vels in the 17h, purely guessing that is but if it did give a good return should be safe on a case full.....maybe! I even wondered if h322 would work or rl7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euget123 Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Thanks for all the advice folks! Think lil gun is a no go!ive a chrono coming on wednesday so may try the 8.5gr loads(which give good accuracy and no signs of pressure) over it just to see! H110 arrived this morning!this may be the way forward! Will continue to work on it and keep yous posted! Sure its all part of the fun! Cheers ET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I have driven 3 rifles in 17 Hornet towards and on one occasion, well beyond its limits and LIlgun was nasty in it. Charge weight variation well within the accuracy and precision offered by some reloading scales would go from a safe load to a blown primer. I'd steer well clear of Lilgun. H110 was a powder I would have liked to have tried and I suspect ideal but at the time i wasnt in the mood to pop a lb tub for 100 grains of powder and stayed with powder I had open, specifically the slower H4198 with 25's which was a steady eddy load of great reliability in what is a twitchy case. 17 Hornet is like all small cases, it requires very careful powder measure consistency and is very hard to make it reliably work as was 'intended' by the designer. The brass quality, specifically primer pocket variability made it hard work to live with as a test gun although the second batch of ammo on the third gun a year after the first was different. It ran 150 fps slower that the original batch in the same barrel side by side and the primer pockets were deeper. It was also smoky from the muzzle and accuracy had diminished, again, in side by side testing with an older batch. The smaller you make something, the more critical tolerances become, its the same across the whole world of engineering and mass loading, even home loading tools are starting to struggle. I also run 4198, but with both 20's and 25's. The heavy bullets are fireforming, the lighter for animals. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx10mike Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 i personally on what you have told us would be happy running below book with 8.5 of lil gun.if your chamber is a tiny bit tighter than there test rifle it would explain all.even if your calipers are 2 tho out things can change.i'm picking mine up next week and will be trying 1680 and lil gun with the 20's .thanks for sharing your findings as i too will start low after reading this.keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Anyone interested I have a small amount of lilgun they can have to try Don't use it anymore, enough for a case of hornets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 N120 is powder of choice in my 17AH. Very consistent and meters nicely. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I'm following this topic with interest. I use Lilgun in my .22 Hornet, with pretty good results. I have just purchased a new .17 Hornet, and I am going to try reloading it with H4198, as I read that it's good for both these calibres, I'm staying with 20gr Vmax at the moment (when I can get hold of some) and the rifle will be used 99% of the time for Corvids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 N120 is powder of choice in my 17AH. Very consistent and meters nicely. A I have heard that too, but never wanted to fork out for 1 kg of powder to try it. When you're only using 10-ish grains at a time, that makes 1500 rounds from a kilo of powder. I don't know anyone local that uses it to try a quarter pound or so. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx10mike Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 N120 is powder of choice in my 17AH. Very consistent and meters nicely. A n120 after my research shows best accuracy potential whilst bieng stable with low sd but the speed seems down in the hh with 10.5 offering around 3300 but some guys have kept pushing to get better mv what speed are you getting in the ah ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I've just checked the data for three Hodgdon powders. H110 looks good. What do you think? http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 H110 is a good powder indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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