20 bore cartridges for pigeon

[motty]

Guys shoot 7s steel at wildfowl.

 

It is just all to do with personal choice and live with the limitations.

I've helped guys reload, and one of the standard loads I print out is a 25g plaswads #6. The guy reloaded them for clays to try. But used all 50 on pigeons and ground game. For me they are about the lightest and smallest I'd ever go.

As for the 30yard argument, why limit to 30?

 

If one limits to sub and 30yards that could really limit the day.

Who limits their shooting to 30 yards?

[Guest stevo]

I think several factors are at work, ie shot size and load together with choke.

 

I have found English size 7 shot 2.4mm kills well in my 28ga at sensible distances with 24gm 3/4 choke.

 

Another I like a lot is shot size 6.5 or 2.5mm which is now difficult to find in a commercial cartridge which is why I like to reload,

It gives good energy and more pellets in the pattern than number 6 shot which helps in small gauge guns.

 

Clean kills are important, yes pricked or wounding does happen what ever the cartridge/gun, but no one should take pleasure in wounding an animal which may then die an agonising death just because they want to save a couple of quid, if so find another sport.

 

Stevo, the majority of fiocchi cartridges sold in the uk are English shot size or so they claim the top one size 7.5 is English 7.5 or 2.3mm not the size 7 you claim, however I have never taken one apart to check the actual shot size, which experience has shown at tines regardless of who the manufacture is or what the manufactures say may not always be what's o

 

 

Rb

 

Not wanting to start an argument with you but fiochci TT one ( which are top one ) the ones i use are a english 7 . 2.4mm

Have a look on there UK website

 

http://www.fiocchiuk.com/site/index.php?pag=791&linea=51&titolo_prod=TT%20Line&prod=839

[fenboy]

Not wanting to start an argument with you but fiochci TT one ( which are top one ) the ones i use are a english 7 . 2.4mm

Have a look on there UK website

 

http://www.fiocchiuk.com/site/index.php?pag=791&linea=51&titolo_prod=TT%20Line&prod=839

 

I wish the loading companys could come to an agreement on sticking to one criteria for shot size, it would save all these arguments !

I see Fiocchi also do some TT one trap cartridges that are English 7.5 size ! so you could both be right !!

[rbrowning2]

Not wanting to start an argument with you but fiochci TT one ( which are top one ) the ones i use are a english 7 . 2.4mm

Have a look on there UK website http://www.fiocchiuk.com/site/index.php?pag=791&linea=51&titolo_prod=TT%20Line&prod=839

Hi Stevo, no argument, but either their website or their box is wrong !!! I have a fiochhi TT one 12/67/08 28gm blue/silver box in front of me as I write this and it clearly states 7.5 (2.3mm) on the top flap, front and both sides of the box.

 

Also yours shows 70mm case length mine are as above 67mm !!!

 

Just confirms why I reload you know exactly what you are shooting.

 

Rb.

Edited December 31, 2015 by rbrowning2

[motty]

Whether 2.3mm or 2.4mm, they will still do the job on pigeons and game at good ranges.

[wj939]

Whether 2.3mm or 2.4mm, they will still do the job on pigeons and game at good ranges.

Such a closed mind

[motty]

I stand by my point. Over the range of vermin and game species in the UK, over the average distances they'd be shot by the average man, a 7.5 is not going to be as effective at giving clean kills as a larger pellet, fact.

If we all start throwing out our game carts and using clay carts there will be more cripples than necessary and that is not good for anyone.

 

You can take examples at each end of the scale to suit your argument but the vast majority of shooters tend to be in the majority for a reason. Horses for courses, exactly. Clays for clays and I'll stick to using game carts for game and I dont need YouTube to tell me what works better.

Just out of interest, have you used any 'clay' cartridges on live quarry. If so, in what kind of quantitys?

[wj939]

Yes, I've experimented a lot over the course of my shooting experience to evaluate what was effective. I am lucky enough to shoot in many different places and frequently at that, I'm not going into a who shoots most or best debate, but I am fortunate enough to shoot three times a week year round if not more on average. As such feel I am fairly qualified in my opinions.

 

I can honestly say I and many of those I have shot with will wing more birds with smaller shot, perhaps it's down in part to ranges, it's common people over estimate the distance of their shots, I know people who will claim to have killed birds at 45 yards with 8's, only to see their 45 yards, when directly above their head is more like 30. But there is no fact behind the argument small clay shot 7.5s 8's and 9's will be as effective at offering clean kills as a larger pellet. It doesn't have the energy, and that is just physics.

We can evaluate the multiple strikes theory and I would suggest plucking your next 100 birds including decoyed pigeon, flighted birds, driven game etc. and average the number of pellets in each and I doubt your average would be more than 5.

 

Fact remains, using a sub optimal shot size increases your chance of wounding birds, and encouraging the use of what is widely accepted as a sub optimum load is irresponsible. If you can offer any substantial evidence to support I am completely open to being pleasantly enlightened.

Shooting is always going to result in wounded game, its our responsibility to ensure we use the best tools available to ensure clean kills.

[sitsinhedges]

We've been down this road many times before. If all shells were the same price no-one would be using clay shells to shoot live game. It all comes down to price versus the unarguable ballistic superiority of a larger pellet combined with suitable choking to give best performance at range whilst not mincing the closer birds.

[Guest cookoff013]

We've been down this road many times before. If all shells were the same price no-one would be using clay shells to shoot live game. It all comes down to price versus the unarguable ballistic superiority of a larger pellet combined with suitable choking to give best performance at range whilst not mincing the closer birds.

+1

[neutron619]

We've been down this road many times before. If all shells were the same price no-one would be using clay shells to shoot live game. It all comes down to price versus the unarguable ballistic superiority of a larger pellet combined with suitable choking to give best performance at range whilst not mincing the closer birds.

 

+1

[rbrowning2]

It is not just down to price, It is all so down to physics and velocity/pellet energy.

 

Both 2.3mm and 2.4mm have the energy over pigeon decoys say 30 to 35yards to kill with no problem.

 

But if you want to shoot out passed about 35 yards then it would be best to use a larger pellet hence I like the uk 6.5 or 2.5mm which is an excellent size I think for general use and still gives a good number of pellets in the pattern in 24gm or 28gm loads.

 

As distance increases then the size of shot must increase but so must the load, 32gm (or more) otherwise the pattern will fail before the energy dies. Small pellets lose energy very much faster than large ones.

 

So know what and how you are planning to shoot and select the best cartridge for the task, be it loaded with 7.5 or larger.

[Guest stevo]

a lot of talk about using clay shells as in English 7.5 and smaller on game , but were on about English 7s ( well at least I was haha )

 

clay shells are clay shells from 9, 8, 7-5 ect

 

game shells 7, 6.5 , 6, 5, and so on .

 

for decoying ranges 7 , 6-5 and 6 are spot on

 

English 7s are also a big favourite with game shooters for partridge and pheasant's , so I cant see why a decoyed pigeon would pose a problem ?

[JDog]

It is a good job that I am too thick to take in all of this stuff about shot sizes, chokes and cartridges weights.

[Guest stevo]

It is not just down to price, It is all so down to physics and velocity/pellet energy.

 

Both 2.3mm and 2.4mm have the energy over pigeon decoys say 30 to 35yards to kill with no problem.

 

But if you want to shoot out passed about 35 yards then it would be best to use a larger pellet hence I like the uk 6.5 or 2.5mm which is an excellent size I think for general use and still gives a good number of pellets in the pattern in 24gm or 28gm loads.

 

As distance increases then the size of shot must increase but so must the load, 32gm (or more) otherwise the pattern will fail before the energy dies. Small pellets lose energy very much faster than large ones.

 

So know what and how you are planning to shoot and select the best cartridge for the task, be it loaded with 7.5 or larger.

 

yep I will go along with that

 

if I'm shooting over decoys I will use English 7 . 6-5.or 6 any of them will cope with the job , keeping in mind I call decoying ranges out to 40 maybe 45 yrds and I nearly always use 3/8th and a full choke , therefore I have the option to shoot top or bottom barrel first depending on how the bird presents itself and range .

 

for flighting birds or roost shooting I will us RC sipe 32 gram 5s of 6s depending on what's in stock , choke wise I will use full and full .

[motty]

Again, much rubbish being spouted. Yes, this topic has been covered several times.

I have killed many, many pigeons at over 50 yards with a mere ounce of 2.4mm shot and smaller. I don't look at a pigeon and think, "if only I had some 6s in right now". Shot placement is FAR more important than shot size.

Please stop going on about cost saving. Why would I spend an extra 50-80 quid a thousand on cartridges that I won't notice the benefit of?

Could someone please recommend a suitable cartridge for shooting pigeons, as I have clearly been making terrible mistakes all these years.

And anyone, do feel free to watch any of my pigeon shooting videos and let me know where the cartridges have failed me.

[rbrowning2]

Motty at 50yards for 2.4mm shot and a typical observed velocity of 1100 ft/sec the pellet energy is expected to be 0.73 foot-pounds which is just above the 0.7 generally accepted minimum for small birds like pigeon.

 

So yes with a suitable choke and a well placed shot string one may be able to kill pigeons at 50yards but you are leaving nothing in reserve and could just as easy wound the pigeon if insufficient pellets hit home or do not penetrate a vital organ.

 

Being on the energy/pattern limit is not ideal and leaving a good margin for error , as with most things in life, would be a better/kinder option.

[Whitebridges]

Funny old game making a recommendation to someone. It's not just cartridges is it?

 

I made a recommendation to a good friend recently as to the wine he should drink with his turkey this Christmas. He ordered it and drunk it and then rang me on Boxing Day and told me it tasted like ****.

 

Best to work it out for yourself I say.

 

For the record i've used trap loads on pigeon and they work just fine over deeks. At the moment i'm using some Express 32g Super Game No 7. I got them at the right price ( apparently they are now discontinued ) and some Gamebore Pigeon Extreme 34g No 5.

 

Roost shooting with the latter i've shot some crackers that i'd doubt i'd have touched with a trap 7 1/2.

 

32g of No 7 on pigeon is a corking load providing you can cope with the recoil.

 

Just my ten penneth.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Whitebridges

[motty]

Motty at 50yards for 2.4mm shot and a typical observed velocity of 1100 ft/sec the pellet energy is expected to be 0.73 foot-pounds which is just above the 0.7 generally accepted minimum for small birds like pigeon.

 

So yes with a suitable choke and a well placed shot string one may be able to kill pigeons at 50yards but you are leaving nothing in reserve and could just as easy wound the pigeon if insufficient pellets hit home or do not penetrate a vital organ.

 

Being on the energy/pattern limit is not ideal and leaving a good margin for error , as with most things in life, would be a better/kinder option.

Again, I will have to disagree - not necessarily with the theory, but I tend to shoot pigeons in reality. I have shot that many pigeons with 7s that I can't just be lucky.

 

I do occasionally buy a 29/30 gm 6. I feel no better armed when I use them.

[6.5x55SE]

Again, much rubbish being spouted. Yes, this topic has been covered several times.

I have killed many, many pigeons at over 50 yards with a mere ounce of 2.4mm shot and smaller. I don't look at a pigeon and think, "if only I had some 6s in right now". Shot placement is FAR more important than shot size.

Please stop going on about cost saving. Why would I spend an extra 50-80 quid a thousand on cartridges that I won't notice the benefit of?

Could someone please recommend a suitable cartridge for shooting pigeons, as I have clearly been making terrible mistakes all these years.

And anyone, do feel free to watch any of my pigeon shooting videos and let me know where the cartridges have failed me.

Correct Motty Happy New Year to you mate.

I also put this to a member who then got upset " to much facts figures and maths " learn to shoot get up front of any Quarry you pursue and it will die.

On the mathematics theory of some of the shooters on here 13/16 oz of 6.5 shot from a 20 ga won't kill Canada Geese ( when legal to use lead ) at 40 + yards !!!!!! As you Motty I know different.

[neutron619]

Please stop going on about cost saving. Why would I spend an extra 50-80 quid a thousand on cartridges that I won't notice the benefit of?

 

Why wouldn't you notice the benefit? If you can shoot 90% (or whatever you're happy with) of your pigeons cleanly at 50 yards with #7½ shot, you ought to be able to get out even further with a #6? Surely? It's all about shot placement isn't it?

 

Come to think of it, why don't you just use 1½oz of #4's and knock them down from 100 yards?

Edited December 31, 2015 by neutron619

[rbrowning2]

Again, I will have to disagree - not necessarily with the theory, but I tend to shoot pigeons in reality. I have shot that many pigeons with 7s that I can't just be lucky.

 

I do occasionally buy a 29/30 gm 6. I feel no better armed when I use them.

7 is perfectly ok for pigeons, may be you are just lucky but I bet not all are shot at 50yards or more? And how many at 50yards or more fly on looking like they have been missed with just one or two pellets in them which did not cause enough damage to bring the bird down their and then?

Or is it like most you are a bad estimator of distance.

[Guest stevo]

 

Why wouldn't you notice the benefit? If you can shoot 90% (or whatever you're happy with) of your pigeons cleanly at 50 yards with #7½ shot, you ought to be able to get out even further with a #6? Surely? It's all about shot placement isn't it?

 

Come to think of it, why don't you just use 1½oz of #4's and knock them down from 100 yards?

are you referring to English 7.5 or Italian ?

[fenboy]

7 is perfectly ok for pigeons, may be you are just lucky but I bet not all are shot at 50yards or more? And how many at 50yards or more fly on looking like they have been missed with just one or two pellets in them which did not cause enough damage to bring the bird down their and then?

Or is it like most you are a bad estimator of distance.

 

How many pheasants fly on during the average shoot after being hit with 5s or 6s , how many ducks and geese fly on after being hit with 3s 2s BB's etc ? placement and pattern are always going to be more important than pellet size up to the range that the shot size lacks lethal energy .

[Guest stevo]

well i have just dug this quote from Will Garfits latest/last book on pigeon shooting , for those that dont know of him , hes one of the "greats " in the world of pigeon shooting and Archi cotes's apprentice .

 

What about a gun for pigeon shooting? And cartridges?

Here I would advise you to take any gun in which you have confidence and which is a good fit. That could be an over-under, side-by-side or semi-automatic. My favourite cartridge for pigeon shooting is the 28gram No.7½ shot, which kills longer birds well, as it produces a dense pattern of shot. This more than compensates for the reduction in penetration with the smaller shot size. The woodpigeon is a small bird with light feathers and is killed cleanly if hit by the dense pattern of No.7½ shot. The important thing is to concentrate on where you put the shot – you won’t kill if you miss, whatever cartridge you are using.

 

and hes on about English 7.5's , the same as Archi cotes used . not the 7s were on about

 

so as far as I'm concerned ............... enough said

Edited December 31, 2015 by stevo