So much for a fair referendum then

[rodp]

Maybe so, but I'm not willing to give my childrens country away just so I can live cheaper. You feel free to do so if you wish, but there's a lot of voters out there who put life in front of a few quid.

[Jaymo]

A few quod maybe and of course each to their own but if the projected change was say 30% increase in your current outgoing so then what?

BOE raising rates to to rapid inflation due to the cost of living shooting up puts many households back to the early 90's with the rapid and untenable increase in Mortgage payments

 

I also have young children and am from the South originally- afraid my 'Country' has already changed beyond recognition whenever I return for visits.

Can't see that changing at all and if the implications / anger that may be shown by the voting public in the next General Election due to a vote to stay then a change of Government would ensue and I'm sure Mr Jeremy isn't going to stop a few million more coming to the party

[poontang]

If on the other hand you wish to keep your 'permissions' on farms that are no longer receiving EU subsidies and are no longer economically viable to continue as farms then vote 'No'

 

 

 

 

 

The UK's net contribution to the EU is roughly £12bn per annum, (and it's set to rise by £3.1bn over the next 5 years).

 

CAP payments to the UK are approx £2.3bn per annum.

 

Out of the EU a UK government could keep the same level of support for farmers and still have an extra £10bn to spend on this country.

[islandgun]

 

The UK's net contribution to the EU is roughly £12bn per annum, (and it's set to rise by £3.1bn over the next 5 years).

 

CAP payments to the UK are approx £2.3bn per annum.

 

Out of the EU a UK government could keep the same level of support for farmers and still have an extra £10bn to spend on this country.

Theres a free market in NZ and they can send frozen lamb to the uk and still make a profit

[FalconFN]

Theres a free market in NZ and they can send frozen lamb to the uk and still make a profit

I've never understood how they've managed that. It's impressive and probably unique in the world.

[islandgun]

I've never understood how they've managed that. It's impressive and probably unique in the world.

I think a lot of their success was/is due to a low input pastoral farming system (lots of grass) allowing them to keep cost's down and profits up, huge markets now to china and india

[Psyxologos]

 

You're kidding right?

 

No, I mean it.

 

A bunch of ex Tory donors, Lib Dems and Labour peers. Nearly all of whom have worked for the either the Guardian, The Times or The Mirror, the EU or the BBC. One of them was Nick Clegg;s strategic advisor in 2007!!

 

I do not see how this can be used against them. They are representative of a wide spectrum. Just because you do not agree with their ex employers or their career choices, does not make them an unreliable source of information or unscientific in their methods.

 

 

The EU never was about free trade. It is, and was, always about power.

 

I disagree. It was not always about power. It has become that, unfortunately.

Too many Lords and Professors on that panel for my liking.

 

The Lords point is a valid one. Professors? Why? what do you have against them? Would you rather if they were central bankers or city traders? I know who I would have more faith in...

[rjimmer]

Maybe so, but I'm not willing to give my childrens country away just so I can live cheaper. You feel free to do so if you wish, but there's a lot of voters out there who put life in front of a few quid.

+1

[rodp]

A few quod maybe and of course each to their own but if the projected change was say 30% increase in your current outgoing so then what?

BOE raising rates to to rapid inflation due to the cost of living shooting up puts many households back to the early 90's with the rapid and untenable increase in Mortgage payments

 

I also have young children and am from the South originally- afraid my 'Country' has already changed beyond recognition whenever I return for visits.

Can't see that changing at all and if the implications / anger that may be shown by the voting public in the next General Election due to a vote to stay then a change of Government would ensue and I'm sure Mr Jeremy isn't going to stop a few million more coming to the party

How about if it's 1%, just as much chance. Or even 0% ? Scaremongering, that's all.

[Rewulf]

Why is that if you favour coming out of the EU you are branded a thick xenophobic ultra right winger,whose opinion is worth nothing?

 

I dont dislike Europe,Im not a racist,I've dated (and once married) many creeds,colours,nationalities and religions.

 

Im not scared of the EU ,I just don't think we can afford them or their policies.

 

What do they do for us?

'Allow' us to trade with them? We've traded with them for the last 2000 years.

I believe it should be up to individual companies to use all modern means to reach out to other countries to find new and existing markets,the EU does not help or facilitate in this,it is up to individuals.

You dont have a 'licence' to trade in the EU just because you are based in an EU country,there never has been.

 

'Free' movement within the bloc ? You cant get out the UK without a passport,admittedly once over on the mainland,and using ground transport,you dont normally need your passport.

But neither do criminals,sex offenders,people traffickers,illegal immigrants and gun and drug smugglers.

25 years ago when I did a lot of work in Germany,once I got off the boat at Ostend,I didn't need my passport till I got back to Dover.

So nothings really changed then.

 

Help us to administer our trade and legal issues within the bloc?

We pay massive sums to them for the priviledge of all the red tape that goes with it,another bloated set of MEPs,an EU supreme court that can override our own , not one but TWO parliament buildings with all the associated logistics of moving between them,never mind the expense accounts that go with it.

 

The security of a large allied state?

This doesn't get mentioned much,but its worth saying here,that in my opinion that's always a good thing.

Trouble is,we don't need it,we have NATO, and to be fair mutual military co operation with neighbouring countries is a no brainer.

We have had Interpol for years,how well it works is debateable,but as the digital age progresses ,it can only get better.

 

Ever closer union?

What does that even mean?

Probably erosion of national identity,law and eventually customs,race..maybe?

These things are going to happen in time anyway,as the world becomes a smaller place.

Im all for being progressive ,a bit of diversity, its what makes the UK the country it is,what I don't like is having it forced upon me and mine.

And any voice that protests against this force is decried as racist,virtually neo nazi !

 

The crux of the matter is this.

The EU is supposed to be based on free,forward thinking democratic principles.

It was sold as the EEC ,a trade agreement,and OK its come on some what since !

We ask for concessions as a valued member state,we get a flat NO.

So this country,being a democracy,should listen to what its people desire.

Why cant a referendum be held sooner,why do we have to wait until the 'stay ins' have had time to change our collective minds?

If the vote is to leave,will they ask for a re run with more time to change our minds,when will we leave?

Will the EU suddenly say 'OK you can have all the things you wanted if you stay'

Everything is being worked to force us to stay.

 

Why are they so eager to keep us,If we mean so little to them ?

[mick miller]

Gorbachev thinks the biggest political question of recent years is why western leaders wish to recreate the former Soviet Union in the West? Can't really argue with a politician with the foresight, courage and political determination to disassemble the bloated cadaver that was the former USSR.

[Rewulf]

Gorbachev thinks the biggest political question of recent years is why western leaders wish to recreate the former Soviet Union in the West? Can't really argue with a politician with the foresight, courage and political determination to disassemble the bloated cadaver that was the former USSR.

 

Its actually worse than that.

We have widely different politics,finances and aims,yet are expected to just get on with it and 'merge'

I dont remember being asked if this is what I wanted,do you ?

Just be thankful for that 20 odd miles of sea that separates us..again.

I spose that makes me nationalistic,and thats illegal now isnt it

[impala59]

Rewulf, well said, I think you covered it all

[STOTTO]

 

Its actually worse than that.

We have widely different politics,finances and aims,yet are expected to just get on with it and 'merge'

I dont remember being asked if this is what I wanted,do you ?

Just be thankful for that 20 odd miles of sea that separates us..again.

I spose that makes me nationalistic,and thats illegal now isnt it

 

Or a Patriot! That’s how you know!

[Nial]

Professors? Why? what do you have against them? Would you rather if they were central bankers or city traders? I know who I would have more faith in...

 

Because their funding comes from the 'magic money tree', just like the EU apparatchiks (sp?).

[FalconFN]

Why is that if you favour coming out of the EU you are branded a thick xenophobic ultra right winger,whose opinion is worth nothing?

 

I don't think that is true at all, both sides have their fair share of mouth breathers but a reasoned argument on either side is seen as valid. This bunker mentality just makes the OUT campaign look a little bit David Ike in my opinion.

 

I dont dislike Europe,Im not a racist,I've dated (and once married) many creeds,colours,nationalities and religions.

 

Im not scared of the EU ,I just don't think we can afford them or their policies. I must admit that I am a little scared of our (the people) powerlessness and the direction the EU s ever heading

 

What do they do for us?

'Allow' us to trade with them? We've traded with them for the last 2000 years.

I believe it should be up to individual companies to use all modern means to reach out to other countries to find new and existing markets,the EU does not help or facilitate in this,it is up to individuals.

You dont have a 'licence' to trade in the EU just because you are based in an EU country,there never has been. I think the power f the EU machine is in its size and sheer buying power, being part of the world's largest economy will have benefits i the future - if it doesn't implode (and a factor in that is our continued membership)

 

'Free' movement within the bloc ? You cant get out the UK without a passport,admittedly once over on the mainland,and using ground transport,you dont normally need your passport.

But neither do criminals,sex offenders,people traffickers,illegal immigrants and gun and drug smugglers.

25 years ago when I did a lot of work in Germany,once I got off the boat at Ostend,I didn't need my passport till I got back to Dover.

So nothings really changed then.

 

You do need a passport as we aren't in the Shengen area (counter to popular belief we don't have open borders) but we have an agreement that any EU citizen can live and work here - but they need a passport too, and that we can live and work anywhere in the EU. Our poor implementation of border control is a UK issue and not an EU one.

 

Help us to administer our trade and legal issues within the bloc?

We pay massive sums to them for the priviledge of all the red tape that goes with it,another bloated set of MEPs,an EU supreme court that can override our own , not one but TWO parliament buildings with all the associated logistics of moving between them,never mind the expense accounts that go with it.

 

The security of a large allied state?

This doesn't get mentioned much,but its worth saying here,that in my opinion that's always a good thing.

Trouble is,we don't need it,we have NATO, and to be fair mutual military co operation with neighbouring countries is a no brainer.

We have had Interpol for years,how well it works is debateable,but as the digital age progresses ,it can only get better.

 

This is where I think the EU has some strength, but as you say here are probably alternative ways of achieving that.

 

Ever closer union?

What does that even mean?

Probably erosion of national identity,law and eventually customs,race..maybe? I'm not concerned about that, every generation is culturally different from the previous one, and we wouldn't want to stop evolving and developing- this is just layer of history added to an already multifaceted Europe.

These things are going to happen in time anyway,as the world becomes a smaller place. Not necessarily, look at other neighboring countries to see what happens without mutual cooperation - The Middle East, India/Pakistan, South/North Korea, The Balkans, Russia, Europe (until very recently)

Im all for being progressive ,a bit of diversity, its what makes the UK the country it is,what I don't like is having it forced upon me and mine. I totally agree with this - hence why the referendum is so important.

And any voice that protests against this force is decried as racist,virtually neo nazi ! I don't agree at all with this bit though, that is where you sound paranoid.

 

The crux of the matter is this.

The EU is supposed to be based on free,forward thinking democratic principles.

It was sold as the EEC ,a trade agreement,and OK its come on some what since !

We ask for concessions as a valued member state,we get a flat NO.

So this country,being a democracy,should listen to what its people desire.

Why cant a referendum be held sooner,why do we have to wait until the 'stay ins' have had time to change our collective minds?

If the vote is to leave,will they ask for a re run with more time to change our minds,when will we leave?

Will the EU suddenly say 'OK you can have all the things you wanted if you stay'

Everything is being worked to force us to stay.

 

Why are they so eager to keep us,If we mean so little to them ?

 

I don't think we have a no just yet, there is still lots of posturing going on and I'm sure they, the other EU countries, will understand that the UK has a very real chance of leaving the EU even if the agree to concessions.

 

The way I see it is that there are benefits to a unification of trading, economic and employment law within Europe, I see the huge potential economic strength we could share on a global scale, particularly in the future, I can see the benefits in terms of a stable and peaceful coexistence within Europe, but the big questions for me are; do we need the current framework (EU) to do it, and can it ever be made to work for most of the people most of the time?

 

In answer, ​I don't think we need the EU in it's current form to do it, but it will be an incredibly fraught period of adjustment if the EU ever imploded (or was crippled) and it would take decades to rebuild workable structures to replace it. For it to have any chance of working well then the people would have to have a genuine voice, so that the European Parliament would have the final say, not the council of Europe, but even then I'm not convinced it can be truly egalitarian in such a complex and culturally diverse place as Europe.

 

The EU is and was a progressive, logical idea that really could be a genuine success story, but it has many flaws and, by its nature, it is in uncharted territories. The utilitarian side of my brain says in, the side fed by experience, emotion and cynicism says out.

Edited January 16, 2016 by FalconFN