"Pattern" and gun movement

[Old farrier]

OF there is a lot of truth in the saying "what works for you is the right thing for you". If people believe that they can spray a pattern or that a long shot string is their friend then more power to their elbow.

 

A friend of mine improved his shooting when it was explained to him that the shot cloud is more akin to a cigar than a dinner plate, whatever clicked in his head worked. The physics of what happens makes no difference to him, he hits more now and that's all that counts

Thanks you saw what I was trying to say 😋

[E.w.]

Here is a very good youtube video with the answer.

https://youtu.be/egBdRMiW0ag

Well done EMT you answered that one for the op spot on.

[wymberley]

Now that the 'hosepipe' effect has been invalidated, the topic seems to have evolved into a discussion on shot string.

Clever bloke was Burrard - not to mention the two guys - Mr Quayle and Mr Griffith - whose work on the subject he quoted: Especially when you consider that the former was working in 1887 and the latter, 1928 and that their results ware remarkably similar to the investigations carried out with the dramatic improvements in technology some 100 years later. The only discrepancy between then and now being the measured length of the shot string. At a muzzle velocity (with which these gentlemen would have been familiar) of c1250 ft/sec, a load of 36 gms of No 3 shot has a string length of c7.4m when fired through a 0.030" choked barrel ( I am NOT saying this makes any difference but simply stating that that was the choke in the test barrel used) and the time taken between the first and last pellet arriving was 43ms at a distance of 50m. A good high pheasant load perhaps.In that timescale said pheasant would have travelled some 30" at 40mph. I'm NOT saying that pheasants fly at that speed; but 40 is easy to divide in various increments so that the 30" can be equally divided in order to select a speed/distance traveled of any preference. When you look at Burrard's figures, the similarity is, indeed, remarkable.

However, as this is the Clay Pigeon forum and to be appropriate, the main bulk of the shot will be within some 6ft and the time taken for the back end to have travelled to the same distance as the front, is some 12ms. and our 20mph clay would have traveled just 6" at 40m.

A bit different for our pheasant at the 50m as the pellet bulk will be stretched somewhat and we're now looking at some 20ms in which time our pheasant would have moved some 14".

Either way, in real terms it's neither here nor there assuming a truly aimed shot.

[Hamster]

The more that a pattern elongates (shot string) the more sparse by definition it will become, in practical terms that means it's a bad thing as far as clay hitting repeatability and accuracy is concerned.

 

An oft misquoted "fact" is that tight chokes make longer shot strings, this has been proved not to be the case and in fact the opposite is true. Yet another reason why the best choose very tight chokes because especially as the range increases the more density you need in order to ensure the clay receives multiple hits.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Hamster

[wymberley]

The more that a pattern elongates (shot string) the less sparse by definition it will become, in practical terms that means it's a bad thing as far as clay hitting repeatability and accuracy is concerned.

 

An oft misquoted "fact" is that tight chokes make longer shot strings, this has been proved not to be the case and in fact the opposite is true. Yet another reason why the best choose very tight chokes because especially as the range increases the more density you need in order to ensure the clay receives multiple hits.

More is sometimes less.

In practical terms, the envisaged maximum effective range for the gun/cartridge/choke has been exceeded.

[timps]

You also have to take into account effective shot string, you are always going to get a few pellets way out in front and a few deformed ones lagging way behind which elongate the shot string somewhat. If live quarry was hit by those then chances are it will just be pricked, if it’s a clay chances are it won’t break ( I saw a whole clay still intact laying on the ground with one pellet hole in it at my last FITASC shoot at Grimesthorpe).

 

 

So focusing on the entire 100% of the shot string (first and last pellet to hit) can be misleading. Focusing on the effective bulk of the shot can dramatically decrease the length of the shot string and therefore the amount the target clay or quarry moves in the time for it to pass.

 

 

 

 

 

[ditchman]

can anyone tell me FACT what shape the shot takes at 30 or so yds using 5-6-7 size shot..............i know a lot of people have different ideas what it is....what is the true agreed shape................im sure it changes at all distances.......

[steveshoots]

For me, the continuous swing of the gun is not to elongate the pattern, its so you don't stop the gun and inevitably shoot behind the target as it continues its travel.

 

I am talking from a live quarry perspective though not clays.

+1

[wymberley]

can anyone tell me FACT what shape the shot takes at 30 or so yds using 5-6-7 size shot..............i know a lot of people have different ideas what it is....what is the true agreed shape................im sure it changes at all distances.......

Factually I don't know but I'll chuck my hat in the ring and go for grrclark's cigar - namely a belicoso with the pointy end at the front. I think you're right and the shape will change. Initially there could be a pointy bit at the back made up of the smaller pellets (sizes will vary in any given cartridge) which are moving slower but these will gradually overtake the ones which are distorted and are spreading out to give the pattern size and are slowing down more quickly and therefore the back end will become more rounded.

[BrowningB525]

Apparently this photo shows the shot string (https://tpwd.texas.gov/education/hunter-education/online-course/firearms-and-ammunition-1/shotshells):

 

[wymberley]

This gives a fair idea - look hard at the target as it's easy to get distracted by the ones having passed through. The front end is pretty much central but then the pattern opens up with just a couple of peripheral stragglers at the end. There is a 'but' of course as it's only one shot.

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/08/measuring-shot-string-high-speed-video

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Danger-Mouse]

This gives a fair idea - look hard at the target as it's easy to get distracted by the ones having passed through. The front end is pretty much central but then the pattern opens up with just a couple of peripheral stragglers at the end. There is a 'but' of course as it's only one shot.

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/08/measuring-shot-string-high-speed-video

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting.

[timps]

Here is a good one on a skeet field, it shows the shot hitting the clay on close in targets.