Over penertration??

[Underdog]

Surely a big pellet that stops inside an animal and so expends all of its energy there is preferable to a smaller one that goes thru creating a smaller wound channel and so is less lethal. What's the problem with that?

If a pellet slows so fast as to stop within such a short distance in that short distance there will be next to no energy left. Organs will be able to move around the slow pellet kind of.

Two holes always allow any blood loss to happen quicker.

Relying on shock alone with airguns is a red herring. Any imparted shock tears blood vessels and the loss of blood supply to a vital organ is all that is required.

Archery is very similar.

A pointed arrow tends to not cause much heamorage and due to low velocity not cause much damage.

Use a broad head and it's effects on blood vessels is awesome.

Incidentally most arrows have more of those ft/lbs cherished by so many but with the wrong tip on the arrow it won't make a hot of difference.

 

Years ago we used different pellets for fur and feathers. The ft/lb were near the same and the diameter of the pellets did not matter. We just had our favourite pellets for different quarry.

How can it be reasonable to assume that a pellet stopping in side a critter is better than one that passes through?

Does anyone actually know how much energy s rabbit, squirrel or pigeon can take?

If we don't know that exact figure how do we know it will be advantageous having a pellet top in the quarry.

 

There seems to be so much assumption on this subject it has become lore.

[Hamster]

Surely a big pellet that stops inside an animal and so expends all of its energy there is preferable to a smaller one that goes thru creating a smaller wound channel and so is less lethal. What's the problem with that?

 

Not necessarily, it all depends on the amount of energy we're talking about. Take for instance a pointed .25 pellet at 4 ft lbs MV hitting the head of a rabbit from the front angle in line with the brain, it is highly likely to penetrate into and stop within the head but not realistically lead to its instant demise whereas a .177/.22 fired at 12 ft lbs MV on the exact same spot which passes through will 99 percent of the time produce instant kills.

[figgy]

Pellet choice is more important that speed at close range. For rats a flat head match pellet in .177 has some stopping power. So do Webley Vermin Pell. Domes Bis Mags are great on rats.

When ratting we used to put pellets in gun backwards so they would tumble, didn't get many runners and made a hell of a thwack when hit.

Edited March 28, 2016 by figgy

[sitsinhedges]

If a pellet slows so fast as to stop within such a short distance in that short distance there will be next to no energy left. Organs will be able to move around the slow pellet kind of.

Two holes always allow any blood loss to happen quicker.

Relying on shock alone with airguns is a red herring. Any imparted shock tears blood vessels and the loss of blood supply to a vital organ is all that is required.

Archery is very similar.

A pointed arrow tends to not cause much heamorage and due to low velocity not cause much damage.

Use a broad head and it's effects on blood vessels is awesome.

Incidentally most arrows have more of those ft/lbs cherished by so many but with the wrong tip on the arrow it won't make a hot of difference.

 

Years ago we used different pellets for fur and feathers. The ft/lb were near the same and the diameter of the pellets did not matter. We just had our favourite pellets for different quarry.

How can it be reasonable to assume that a pellet stopping in side a critter is better than one that passes through?

Does anyone actually know how much energy s rabbit, squirrel or pigeon can take?

If we don't know that exact figure how do we know it will be advantageous having a pellet top in the quarry.

 

There seems to be so much assumption on this subject it has become lore.

 

I can't be bothered to go thru all of that but the undeniable fact is that lb for lb a 22 pellet is more likely to stop a rabbit than a 177. This is why 22 was always more preferable. Now we have more accurate air rifles and can be more precise with our aim we use 177 purely because we can take advantage of the flatter trajectory and thus increase range somewhat. A larger pellet front surface area will always result in better kills at the cost of a more curved trajectory.

 

I'm off for a walk now so argue amongst yourself

[Hamster]

The reason we have instances where .177 passes clean through without producing an instant kill is simple, that is what air guns at that kind of power levels are like, poo occurs because that's how things are.

 

I prefer .22 for hunting because its bigger frontal area ensures a bigger punch and hole, studies prove beyond doubt that they retain more energy compared to .177, but when compared to a FAC .22 the manner of kills is immediately seen to be better still, even though you can't get better than a clean hole through anyway which you already do with sub 12 ft lbs, again this is the undeniable difference between legal and FAC .22. Another step comes when you switch over to sub sonic rimfire which without a shadow of doubt produces better kills even than the FAC .22 and then the rimfire has to yield to a .17 and that to a .223 and so forth. It's what happens.

[figgy]

The difference in ft lbs retained energy between the two calibres is only around half a ft lb at fifty yards.

[bruno22rf]

Sorry Underdog - I am normally more than happy to read and trust your posts but your statement that " Any imparted shock tears blood vessels and the loss of blood supply to a vital organ is all that is required " is incorrect - in fact there are clearly documented cases where a person has been shot through the chest but died due to brain hemorrhage resulting from the imparted shock - the chest damage would have proven repairable but the brain injury is fatal.

[Underdog]

Sorry Underdog - I am normally more than happy to read and trust your posts but your statement that " Any imparted shock tears blood vessels and the loss of blood supply to a vital organ is all that is required " is incorrect - in fact there are clearly documented cases where a person has been shot through the chest but died due to brain hemorrhage resulting from the imparted shock - the chest damage would have proven repairable but the brain injury is fatal.

From an airgun!?

[bruno22rf]

Er....no UD - a pistol delivering 500ft/lb in one instance but a human is far larger than a Squirrel (larger still, in my case ) and is capable of absorbing a far greater shock than Nutty Nutkins sitting 30 feet away nibbling his Snickers Bar. Shock must surely be taken into account when head shooting using a relatively low powered airgun and a small projectile. It could all be different however if you use those ancient type of Airguns......now what were they called?........Oh yes - Springers

[Underdog]

Er....no UD - a pistol delivering 500ft/lb in one instance but a human is far larger than a Squirrel (larger still, in my case ) and is capable of absorbing a far greater shock than Nutty Nutkins sitting 30 feet away nibbling his Snickers Bar. Shock must surely be taken into account when head shooting using a relatively low powered airgun and a small projectile. It could all be different however if you use those ancient type of Airguns......now what were they called?........Oh yes - Springers

And when that pellet passes through brain tissue how would you describe the effect on the tissue?

[winnie&bezza]

And when that pellet passes through brain tissue how would you describe the effect on the tissue?

Over penetrated.

[figgy]

Hydro static shock is what does the damage. So expanding or flat fronted pellets will give more of this and so long as it delivers it it can go through for me.

 

If your shooting close like rats some of the lightweight poly skirt pellets might be better to cut down on retained energy and over penetration.

[UKPoacher]

I tried some of those Logun Penetrator pellets in my .177 HW100. Shot a pigeon, saw a puff of feathers come out of its back and the bird flew off to die elsewhere. Same happened when rook squab shooting. That is over penetration. Happened a few times before I twigged so I swapped the pellets for my usual softer ones; AA Fields or JSB equivalent.

 

When shooting squirrels I would sometimes go for a chest shot if a head shot wasn't feasible. I used to take some of the bigger bucks for eating and came across a few pellets lodged in the chest cavity. They were severely deformed. Nothing solid to hit other than the skin. The bones are like fish bones. But the impact deformed them.

 

 

Probably the most extreme example I tried were Norica Killers. They wouldn't penetrate a 5 litre steel can. I'd find a totally flattened pellet resembling an old sixpence laid in front of the can. Any other pellet went straight through. Here's an apple shot using a NK.........

 

http://vid16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/Golf94/Appleshot_0001.mp4

 

[Hamster]

I tried some of those Logun Penetrator pellets in my .177 HW100. Shot a pigeon, saw a puff of feathers come out of its back and the bird flew off to die elsewhere. Same happened when rook squab shooting. That is over penetration. Happened a few times before I twigged so I swapped the pellets for my usual softer ones; AA Fields or JSB equivalent.

 

 

 

 

Sorry but you're over analysing this, penetrate is what projectiles do, that's the whole point of a fast .177 pellet, that's what air guns do. Almost any pellet is liable to go straight through a pigeon at most angles unless the distance is so great you perhaps shouldn't be shooting at it anyway.

 

If over penetration was a problem manufacturers would be selling us 7 ft lbs guns designed to lob the pellet past the feathers and get lodged an inch or so inside the animal, , they don't of course and you wouldn't buy such a gun because you know a hole all the way through is better than half way. If you're having problems with birds flying off the answer is twofold : try and hit them in the head (easier with rooks) or try and understand the best angles to place pellet on pigeon to maximise the chance of near instant falls, setting the hide in an appropriate place is half the skill.

[Underdog]

I had a pigeon fly off the other day.

I just walked in the direction it flew and found it.

 

Funny how deer stalkers often have the deer run off to a perfect shot but they don't complain about it!

[oowee]

Not sure where this thread is going. I just shoot the rifles I have and don't worry about two much of anything so long as i can get the thing on target. I don't see a mention of energy density. I often wonder why a shotgun pellet can kill so effectively with so little energy per pellet. Even if a few find the target the energy imparted maybe very low compared to air rifle. No 6 shot at 40 yds only 1.4ftlb traveling at 180ms.

[Hamster]

Anyone who is worried about over penetration on their air gun and wants the whole kinetic energy to be dumped inside the quarry should immediately turn the power screw down a turn or two, springers may need to remove up to 4 coils. I can already see those squizzers surrendering en masse rather than face being pole axed wiv a slow killin round like a Hobby doing 300 fps.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Hamster

[figgy]

Anyone who is worried about over penetration on their air gun and wants the whole kinetic energy to be dumped inside the quarry //<![CDATA[

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might as well get a Gat Gun and watch the Squizzers dodge the pellet. Better still a pea shooter must be able to manage a couple of foot pounds.

[secretagentmole]

If two rabbits are standing in line, one behind the other, then is OP is a good thing? ;-)

 

I think it has more to do with the deformation of the pellet, some seem to believe that they MUST squash and transfer all the energy to the quarry. I think markmanship is more important. Penetrating the brain generally works quite well irrespective of the level of penetration.

Personally OP is only of significance if you are not fully aware of your surrounding and risk hitting something that you hadn't planned to.

Overkill isn't something that matters with air rifles. Overkill, to me, means that you make the quarry inedible, I've yet to shoot anything that cannot be eaten afterwards.

And how does sire eat his rat? Medium Rare? Well Done?

 

Is the Crow over easy?

 

Magpie Flambe?

[swingit]

 

 

PS. I have yet to see an air gun pellet either .177 or .22 having deformed to any degree unless it has hit solid bone.

 

 

Agree Hamster and i'm shooting 30ftp.Not that I've ever found many in my quarry (two from what I can remember) it's normally a clean pass through.

[figgy]

Only ones I've seen that deform is on a you tube video of the H&N terminator i think it's called, the hollow point with a little point in the hollow shot into ballistic gel. In slow motion you can see the expansion turn it into a flat head.

Edited March 28, 2016 by figgy

[Underdog]

Can someone explain to me:

1. What OP is?

2. How to calculate just enough penertration so we don't over do it.

3. If we do over penertration, how do we work out how much we over penetrates by so it can be corrected, assuming it needs correcting?

4. Could I be wrong in thinking is just another dumb expression like"overkill", I mean just how do you overkill something and just how do you over penetrates something?

 

Help!

 

Seems no logical explanation can be given to the questions above so I think I will continue believing it is utter nonsense.

 

Thanks for the confirmation chaps, I can continue doing what I do without worrying about over doing it.

 

Lol.

[UKPoacher]

&&0Anyone who is worried about over penetration on their air gun and wants the whole kinetic energy to be dumped inside the quarry should immediately turn the power screw down a turn or two, springers may need to remove up to 4 coils.

 

Turning the power down might be an option if you can guarantee to shoot your quarry at short ranges. Ratting or barn roost shooting for example. But in the real world many might be taking shots at 30 yds or more and the residual energy of a pellet spat out of the rifle at 11.5 ft/lb might be down to sub 7 ft/lb at longer ranges.

 

The OP asked what over penetration was, and shooting straight through quarry like pigeons and not causing death instantly or as soon as humanely possible due to the pellet passing straight through and causing minimal trauma and damage is over penetration in my book. If you can guarantee a head shot every time it might not matter to you. But if I'd failed to take a chest shot on a pigeon, crow or squirrel when a head shot wasn't possible I would have been failing in my task as a pest controller. And for that purpose, and in my own experience I preferred soft lead pellets like AA Fields & JSB Exacts. For rats and rook squab shooting, Norica Killers did the job.

[Zapp]

Seems no logical explanation can be given to the questions above so I think I will continue believing it is utter nonsense.

 

Thanks for the confirmation chaps, I can continue doing what I do without worrying about over doing it.

 

 

In light of the above and the increasing level of bickering on the thread, now is a good time for it to close and for all concerned to move on.