Are Fox 'vermin' in the eyes of FAO

[ElvisThePelvis]

Just finishing off my application for FAC, I'm a little confused. My understanding is that Fox are vermin, but on the home office notes they appear separately. The notes also show that .22250 isn't suitable for vermin but is for fox, my intention being to apply for a condition for Muntjac once granted, do I need to specify it for Fox rather than vermin?

 

Also, if my request for ALQ is granted, can I shoot Muntjac over land that I have permission or does it need to be a specific condition?

[ShootingEgg]

I thought the home office saw fox as vermin. Its been discussed here before and think others are of the same thought. Some FAO will say 223 or bigger for fox. Others allow 17 and 22. Really depends on each area. I can use 17 and 22 legally in my area (within sensible ranges obviously).

[ElvisThePelvis]

I thought the home office saw fox as vermin. Its been discussed here before and think others are of the same thought. Some FAO will say 223 or bigger for fox. Others allow 17 and 22. Really depends on each area. I can use 17 and 22 legally in my area (within sensible ranges obviously).

Home Office show Fox separately.

[Benthejockey]

It's swings and roundabouts. All foxes are vermin but not all vermin are foxes. If you get the deer then you'll get AOLQ which will allow you to use the gun for foxes but it's main use according to the police would be a deer gun. It shouldn't cause any problem unless you had a particularly officious copper and he wonders why you're all kitted out with night vision and foxing bullets.

[ElvisThePelvis]

It's swings and roundabouts. All foxes are vermin but not all vermin are foxes. If you get the deer then you'll get AOLQ which will allow you to use the gun for foxes but it's main use according to the police would be a deer gun. It shouldn't cause any problem unless you had a particularly officious copper and he wonders why you're all kitted out with night vision and foxing bullets.

Ok, so I guess that they won't give AOLQ on a deer legal calibre unless deer are specified? That makes sense.

[robbiep]

The calibre lists are only for defining 'good reason' to possess a particular calibre. So, for example, a FEO would be entirely justified in saying no if you asked for a 308 solely for the purposes of fox, and would tell you to get a smaller, more suitable calibre.

[CharlieT]

The calibre lists are only for defining 'good reason' to possess a particular calibre. So, for example, a FEO would be entirely justified in saying no if you asked for a 308 solely for the purposes of fox, and would tell you to get a smaller, more suitable calibre.

 

This is the way to look at it when filling out your application.

 

I have always found the best way forward, when completing firearms forms, is to put down the quarry species you wish to shoot with each rifle. By doing this there is no room for confusion or ambiguity.

 

The term vermin is just a word that is used to describe animals that are a nusiance to man, much the same as the word pest. I know plenty of farmers who consider deer a pest.

 

I always have the feeling that those who spend hours debating that fox is vermin and therefore they can shoot a fox when their FAC is conditioned for vermin are just trying to circumvent their FAC's conditions. If you wan't to shoot fox ask for it by simply requesting Fox and AOLQ or Fox, vermin and ground game.

[Benthejockey]

I think the AOLQ was initially applied to 'deer' rifles so that if you were out stalking on land where you had permission to shoot foxes you could shoot a fox should it appear without being in breach of your fac conditions. If you want to shoot foxes and the 22-250 is a good foxing round then have your ticket conditioned for it as well as deer.

[leadbreakfast]

If wanted for deer in the uk you should of gone for a 243.

I think you will only get aolq if you have munty and cwd on your land as that's the only deer you can take with 22-250

[remmy1100]

my force northumbria class fox as vermin and allow .17 hmr as legal so if out shooting bunnies and up pops charlie no problem but alot of forces class them seperately which makes life confusing .my licence allows for all legal quarry and ive only 223 as largest calibre

Edited April 1, 2016 by remmy1100

[ElvisThePelvis]

If wanted for deer in the uk you should of gone for a 243.

I think you will only get aolq if you have munty and cwd on your land as that's the only deer you can take with 22-250

I don't want it as a designated Deer rifle, I want it for Fox (vermin) and long range Corvids (vermin) and the land is beset by Muntjac. If I decide I want to shoot the Roe and Fallow then I will apply for .270 or 308 as a friends farm in Devon has Boar. What I am wondering is whether a 22250 will need deer added or whether vermin (inc fox) and AOLQ will cater for deer.

[CharlieT]

Deer are not vermin, you will need to ask for Deer and AOLQ.

Remember that some counties do not issue AOLQ.

 

I still don't understand why you keep on about vermin (inc fox) and does this include deer. Stop tying yourself in knots. Ask for what you need which is deer, fox and vermin.

Edited April 1, 2016 by CharlieT

[Bazooka Joe]

you will need to ask for Deer and AOLQ

 

 

Durham just got their head round to AOLQ, but have omitted the Deer Condition which was always separate, as was Fox.

 

I take it, it comes under the AOLQ bit stating "Quarry Suitable For That Calibre"

 

 

[CharlieT]

BJ

 

Even with that condition they have chosen to not follow the guidance and add superfluous wording. The guidance clearly stated that FAC holders should be considered intelligent enough to know the law regarding legal calibers for different quarry. All they are required to do is to write ALQ.

[robbiep]

BJ

 

Even with that condition they have chosen to not follow the guidance and add superfluous wording. The guidance clearly stated that FAC holders should be considered intelligent enough to know the law regarding legal calibers for different quarry. All they are required to do is to write ALQ.

Actually, I'd disagree. I don't think that condition is outside the guidance - especially as it appears to be one condition to cover a number of firearms.

 

The 'sample condition' in the guidance reads thus :

 

The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND MODERATOR and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/ deer (delete as appropriate) and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges, on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

 

With the italic'ed part deleted for open FACs.

The only way that could otherwise be re-written, and would make it even more cumbersome, would be to list all the firearms on their own individual, but virtually identical, conditions. The way it has been written in the example photograph is more compact and succinct, and does assume that intelligence and knowledge.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Deer are not vermin, you will need to ask for Deer and AOLQ.

Remember that some counties do not issue AOLQ.

 

I still don't understand why you keep on about vermin (inc fox) and does this include deer. Stop tying yourself in knots. Ask for what you need which is deer, fox and vermin.

To make this abundantly clear, I know that deer aren't vermin, my question is whether deer are AOLQ ..

[Dekers]

Latest Home Office Guide

 

Shooting Small Quarry Species, including Game and Pest
Species (Vermin)
13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport.
These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and
hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause
damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,
brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such
as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests..........

 

So, the Home Office are happy to consider Fox Vermin.

[Dekers]

To make this abundantly clear, I know that deer aren't vermin, my question is whether deer are AOLQ ..

 

Deer are 100% AOLQ.

 

Obviously they have legal firearms requirements, if you have a calibre that meets these requirements, then you can shoot them legally under AOLQ.

 

Lets assume your .223 or maybe 243 is conditioned for Fox and AOLQ, just what makes you think deer are not AOLQ?

 

[ElvisThePelvis]

Latest Home Office Guide

 

Shooting Small Quarry Species, including Game and Pest

Species (Vermin)

13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport.

These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and

hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause

damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,

brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such

as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests..........

 

So, the Home Office are happy to consider Fox Vermin.

Yes, that's correct, I read this but later in the document on the 'good reason' grid they specify fox seperarely and show that .22250 etc are not suitable for vermin, as such a guess a .22250 for vermin (even though HO include fox in this description) would be kicked out unless it specifies fox which it should to taking the description you refer to above.. It is very ambiguous.

[CharlieT]

All our advice should really hinge on the fact that you are a new applicant (I presume) and that you are in a quandary as to what you put down on the form as your reason to substantiate your application for your chosen caliber.

 

The police will expect you to write down the quarry species you wish to shoot, not the condition you would like them to write on your certificate. The condition they chose is their decision, although they may be swayed by some input from you.

 

In your case, applying for a 22.250, I would suggest the most sensible way forward is to put down deer, fox and vermin or you can do as I do and put down deer and AOLQ. This can be discussed further with your FEO on his visit when you will be able to steer him into giving you the condition wording most suitable for your needs.

I can never see the point in asking for fox and AOLQ when you actually want to shoot deer, why not ask for what you want which is deer and AOLQ.

 

Just remember that the table you refer to above is only a guide and its contents are not written in stone. Every application is treated on its own merits.

[ElvisThePelvis]

All our advice should really hinge on the fact that you are a new applicant (I presume) and that you are in a quandary as to what you put down on the form as your reason to substantiate your application for your chosen caliber.

 

The police will expect you to write down the quarry species you wish to shoot, not the condition you would like them to write on your certificate. The condition they chose is their decision, although they may be swayed by some input from you.

 

In your case, applying for a 22.250, I would suggest the most sensible way forward is to put down deer, fox and vermin or you can do as I do and put down deer and AOLQ. This can be discussed further with your FEO on his visit when you will be able to steer him into giving you the condition wording most suitable for your needs.

I can never see the point in asking for fox and AOLQ when you actually want to shoot deer, why not ask for what you want which is deer and AOLQ.

 

Just remember that the table you refer to above is only a guide and its contents are not written in stone. Every application is treated on its own merits.

Excellent, thank you that's a really important point the difference between who states quarry and who issues condition, thank you very much.. Local authority are sniffy about granting deer, believe it or not even though in this crepes it can be the same rifle. My plan with this in mind is to leave deer off for now and apply for condition for Muntjac at a later date. Thank you, the official guidance is somewhat contradictory and confusing.

[srspower]

Fox are not eaten and are shot as a pest ergo they are vermin, any lawyer could argue that and win but the odds are stacked against you.

[Hendrix's rifle]

Fox are not eaten and are shot as a pest ergo they are vermin, any lawyer could argue that and win but the odds are stacked against you.

My feo came round yesterday and asked if I wanted fox on my ticket, he said put fox and vermin on the wmr and just vermin on the hmr and don't shoot them with the hmr because it'll get me in a spot of bother if I'm caught To the OP, I wont argue that one so make sure you put fox on and don't class it as vermin

[ElvisThePelvis]

Excellent, thanks, keen to avoid difference of opinions with firearms guys, even if they aren't always technically correct..

[Savhmr]

My feo came round yesterday and asked if I wanted fox on my ticket, he said put fox and vermin on the wmr and just vermin on the hmr and don't shoot them with the hmr because it'll get me in a spot of bother if I'm caught To the OP, I wont argue that one so make sure you put fox on and don't class it as vermin

 

 

Good advice.

 

Don't second guess what the FEO might and might not agree. As Charlie said earlier, just list the calibre you want and the species you want it for. The FEO and team will sort out the wording that your force uses (yes, I know....but it's not a level playing field despite what the guidance says). I have "Vermin and Fox" for my 223, and "Deer & fox" on my 308. That doesn't mean that I can't legally shoot munty using the 223, but the 308 is my primary deer rifle and good reason is for taking deer, hence deer are not mentioned on the 223 slot.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Savhmr