223 muntjac bullet

[Redgum]

Been experimenting over the years with various calibres and bullets to find a good recipe for Munties, just been trying out some 55gr 1360 sierra varmint bullets in 223 with varget powder. Not had the 223 for very long at all but now shot five munties with this load and it seems to be the perfect bullet, anyone else using it.

[Dougy]

To be honest Redgum I was thinking about this last night while in a high seat,

and my conclusion was that,( although not going to be accepted by many) I need them to drop on the spot, the last thing I want is them running on, and having to spend time looking for them into the darkness of the night. So I stick to what is accurate and I know "will" stop them in there tracks so I use 53grain vmax in a 22.250.

[robbiep]

That's surprising to me. I wouldn't use a varmint bullet on deer, only on fox. Deer I've always used softpoint.

 

Reasoning being that I'd have expected a Vmax to cause a lot more damage to meat, etc. and to fragment a lot more readily, whereas a SP will just mushroom and slam to a stop.

 

Happy to hear other viewpoints on it though, and to be corrected !

[Dougy]

That's surprising to me. I wouldn't use a varmint bullet on deer, only on fox. Deer I've always used softpoint.

 

Reasoning being that I'd have expected a Vmax to cause a lot more damage to meat, etc. and to fragment a lot more readily, whereas a SP will just mushroom and slam to a stop.

 

Happy to hear other viewpoints on it though, and to be corrected !

 

That's what the varmint bullets do, and yes there is meat damage, and probably more than soft point. But the deer are on the grass, if I were shooting any other Deer then I would use a completely different bullet and rifle.

But where I shoot these Muntjack the last thing I want is to spend time fighting through brambles and shrubbery to find them if they run on a few yards.

Loosing a little meat I think is a small price to pay.

[spandit]

I'd have thought the 1365 would be a better choice but my local RFD doesn't stock them

[Redgum]

The 1360 has a slightly thicker jacket so reduces expansion, its designed for very fast 22 250 sort of performance but with the 223 and around 3000 fps muzzle I find it expands just enough with little meat damage. Miss the heart and then you have a good blood trail should it not drop on the spot. Completely understand about finding the deer when the lights going, I have spent ages looking for Munty just to find them five yards from were they were shot. This applies with all deer though and blowing them to pieces is one answer but also shooting first light or the expense of a thermal imager. Not tried the 1365, they may also work well.

[Dunkield]

You already know my answer but the PC brigade will come running if I say any more.

All I will say is I shoot about 30 -40 muntjac a year these days and I have had maybe 1 or 2 walk on a bit and that is it.

The SD is full of stories of how they run on when shot, I just don't see it, and there is minimal (for a muntjac) meat damage.

It isn't really my thing, but I can upload dozens of pictures if you want to see for yourself.

[Redgum]

You already know my answer but the PC brigade will come running if I say any more.

All I will say is I shoot about 30 -40 muntjac a year these days and I have had maybe 1 or 2 walk on a bit and that is it.

The SD is full of stories of how they run on when shot, I just don't see it, and there is minimal (for a muntjac) meat damage.

It isn't really my thing, but I can upload dozens of pictures if you want to see for yourself.

 

I shoot about the same amount as you and your term' occasionally walk on a bit' I find that hard to believe, bet you haven't missed any either. Muntys are pretty crafty and usually creeping about in heavy wood land and the perfect shot isn't always on. Take the one I shot on Monday morning, a pregnant female who had no idea I was there so wasn't buzzed up( if they aren't always edgy), she was creeping through a clearing and the grass was just up past her midrift, about 100yds away. I was on the sticks and had plenty of time, once she moved through a clearer patch I pull the trigger, cross hairs half way up the body behind the should due to the long grass. She didn't walk quietly on to expire, she lept forward into the thicker stuff the other side of the path. Lots of blood , heart intact but shot was about an inch above so all the plumbing was gone.

I could pin a heart sized target up 100mts away and pop nice little groups into it all day long with any of my rifles ( well maybe not the air rifle) but out in the field is another story. Do you possibly only shoot from highseat ?

[Dunkield]

Never, well maybe once or twice a year. I have half a dozen seats mostly for guests but prefer to shoot on foot.

I miss of course, like anyone else who shoots enough, but once hit they don't go anywhere they just drop.

Maybe everyone else is using the wrong bullet - who knows, I don't care I am only concerned about my own patch.

 

Roe on the other hand run and run with all their vitals shot to bits, but that's another whole seperate thread.

 

Edit.

 

Here is an example, click, plop, dead.

152 yards (off a bipod, not sticks)

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/335196-the-muntjac-buck/

[Redgum]

Never, well maybe once or twice a year. I have half a dozen seats mostly for guests but prefer to shoot on foot.

I miss of course, like anyone else who shoots enough, but once hit they don't go anywhere they just drop.

Maybe everyone else is using the wrong bullet - who knows, I don't care I am only concerned about my own patch.

 

Roe on the other hand run and run with all their vitals shot to bits, but that's another whole seperate thread.

 

......and your faultless calibre and bullet is .............................................?

[Savhmr]

I use the #1365 bullet which I run in 223 at 3150fps (measured) using 23.2g of N133. It's an incredibly accurate load in my rifle, cloverleaf groups now I've sorted load/seating that the rifle likes. Probably more suited than the #1360 which Sierra themselves recommend more for 22-250 and 220 swift as it may not reliably expand at lower velocities as well. They say it runs slightly "hard" in 222/223 meaning less chances of expansion. I only have the 1365 to go on and it expands nicely without total fragmentation allowing good penetration. I know some who also use Amax in 75g (fast twist needed).

 

Edit...ooops, I see that you have tried it and it does work well. That makes two that do then! #1360 and #1365 both then seem to be ok.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Savhmr

[Redgum]

I use the #1365 bullet which I run in 223 at 3150fps (measured) using 23.2g of N133. It's an incredibly accurate load in my rifle, cloverleaf groups now I've sorted load/seating that the rifle likes. Probably more suited than the #1360 which Sierra themselves recommend more for 22-250 and 220 swift as it may not reliably expand at lower velocities as well. They say it runs slightly "hard" in 222/223 meaning less chances of expansion. I only have the 1365 to go on and it expands nicely without total fragmentation allowing good penetration. I know some who also use Amax in 75g (fast twist needed).

 

Edit...ooops, I see that you have tried it and it does work well. That makes two that do then! #1360 and #1365 both then seem to be ok.

 

I like a boat tail and the 1365 seems pretty similar to the 1360, the only reason I use the 1360 is that I was a little worried in bullet length at 55gr as mine is a 1:12 twist, what twist are you running. There is the 1350 which will expand at lower speeds ( have some to try). Didn't really want to wait for a 1:8 to come around and then if I want to push much heavier bullets I have the 243.( I will measure the speed when I have chance though I expect sub 3000 as I'm using 26grs of varget.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Redgum

[Walker570]

I shoot a 22BR and my go to bullet has always been the 60gr Nosler Partition but I have recently changed over to some 55grn V Max. I like muntie meat so don't like wasting it. The V Max through the ribs usually puts them down very quickly but the one word you can never use when shooting

deer or anything else for that matter is ALWAYS. I changed to the V Max because it is a good all rounder, fox, crow, muntie it is accurate out of my Encore barrel. Through the ribs I don't get any noticeable meat damage not that there is much up front. The shoulder meat normally goes into

game pies. The back straps get smoked and eaten thinly sliced cold and the haunches boned and stuffed with mixed herb stuffing and wrapped in

smoked bacon. I try not to drive the bullet too fast because over the years I have learned a) accuracy is more important and b) a fast bullet can blow blood all through the meat.

[Savhmr]

Having shot crow with 60g V-max, I've found that it blows them to bits (driving them at 3140fps). There's usually a fist sized hole on the exit and the bird is eviscerated almost completely. They are very accurate but I would have thought that a soft point might be a better bet for less meat damage. I agree that V-max is a good fox and crow bullet but wouldn't personally use it on deer when other very accurate purpose made bullets like the Gameking are available and have more chance if hitting a shoulder for example to go on and penetrate the animal than V-max might. Anything to maximise the chances of a humane kill.

[Walker570]

Always had an exit. Never shoot ANY deer unless perfectly sideways on to me. No rush it will be there tomorrow. So concentrate on putting the

V Max just behind the shoulder meat, what little there is of it. I'm also not a head neck shooter. I have had to put too many deer out of their

misery with jaws hanging off, some already with maggots. I am slowly changing over to Barnes TTSX but they are like Rocking Horse Doo Doo, even in the USA and having spoken to the factory they are flat out trying to keep up with the home market. Shoot them in my 8x57JRS and 375JDJ with

excellent results. Still trying to get some for the 22BR, 257 Wildcat and 7-30 Waters(now there's a nice little muntie round!).

Edited June 2, 2016 by Walker570

[Graham M]

A V-max on deer!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

......................oh sod it. I get enough stick as it is.

 

 

 

G

[Savhmr]

Always had an exit. Never shoot ANY deer unless perfectly sideways on to me. No rush it will be there tomorrow. So concentrate on putting the

V Max just behind the shoulder meat, what little there is of it. I'm also not a head neck shooter. I have had to put too many deer out of their

misery with jaws hanging off, some already with maggots. I am slowly changing over to Barnes TTSX but they are like Rocking Horse Doo Doo, even in the USA and having spoken to the factory they are flat out trying to keep up with the home market. Shoot them in my 8x57JRS and 375JDJ with

excellent results. Still trying to get some for the 22BR, 257 Wildcat and 7-30 Waters(now there's a nice little muntie round!).

 

I find it interesting, and a little odd, that someone clearly responsible enough not to take head shots on deer would even countenance a V-max when better suited alternatives are available which are purpose designed for the job. Explosive expansion type varmint bullets to my mind ought not to be used on deer. That is not what they were designed for but point taken that the munty is a small animal and side on it should result in a clean kill but the risk of damage, especially rupturing the gut for a slight risk of missing to one side even a little, rules it out for me. There's no hardship in developing a few loads. My 55 SGK rounds shoot to about the same POI as the 60g Vmax (similar velocities hence barrel times) so there's no excuse for me not to be using those.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Savhmr

[Dougy]

 

As you can clearly see its very full with trees, brambles and such like, hence the reason for the need to see the Muntjac drop on the shot. Horses for courses every scenario will have its pro's and con's. I could use 2 other calibres 30.06 or 6.5 but in that area I choose what I think will save me time looking and risk loosing a shot deer in the undergrowth.

[Dekers]

.223 55g PRVI SP is plenty as I have said many times.

 

Mine don't go for a stroll after being shot!

 

Don't see any reason why the 55g Sierra Varmints shouldn't perform perfectly well.

[Redgum]

.223 55g PRVI SP is plenty as I have said many times.

 

Mine don't go for a stroll after being shot!

 

Don't see any reason why the 55g Sierra Varmints shouldn't perform perfectly well.

 

I think we must put this down to the fact that Muntjac in some areas are just a bit tougher for what ever reason . We can all sort of agree that a Roe will run on and sometimes quite along way and it seems that Muntjac fall over like a pack of cards in some areas. The thing that totally amazes me on this topic is that some drop a Munty on the spot and confess to sometimes missing ( which of course we can all and have done) but never fall in the grey area inbetween with the bullet strike being a few inches forward, high, low or back. On a red, fallow or even a Roe the fatal area is a fair bit bigger than a Muntjac thus the margin for error on a Muntjac in a field situation is greater. Could it be that those that drop em on the spot or miss sometimes don't follow up all their shots

Edited June 2, 2016 by Redgum

[activeviii]

It's because some munties are hard and don't read from the same song book. Some are on grass and high so don't react the same.

 

Some are shot with bs

[Redgum]

The 1360 sierra bullet continues to impress, shot a young Munty doe yesterday evening at around 80yds, slightly quartering but still the bullet performed admirably and considering the angle it was less messy than I expected with little meat damage. If I had taken the shot with the 243 it would have been very messy indeed. This animal did drop on the spot with just a little back leg kicking.

[TONY R]

Been experimenting over the years with various calibres and bullets to find a good recipe for Munties, just been trying out some 55gr 1360 sierra varmint bullets in 223 with varget powder. Not had the 223 for very long at all but now shot five munties with this load and it seems to be the perfect bullet, anyone else using it.

Why use the varmint bullet when the Game king is available, the game king is Not as distructive as the varminter but will drop them just as dead with less damage.

[Redgum]

Why use the varmint bullet when the Game king is available, the game king is Not as distructive as the varminter but will drop them just as dead with less damage.

 

Good question, two reasons, one is that the Game king is a full metal jacket and secondly its a boat tail and I wanted the heaviest bullet for its length as my 223 has a 1:12 twist. The 1360 is a heavier jacketed bullet than the other 55grs available designed more for higher speeds of the 22.250 so with less speed the expansion should be more controlled. On a small deer like a Munty I'm not sure if the Game king would expand enough without a lot of speed, maybe on a Roe (Scotland) it would be ideal, is anyone using them? My Quest was for an ideal munty bullet, if the 1360 had not been so ideal then I would have tried Game kings, the 1360 size for size acts very similarly to using 100gr Prohunters in 243 on Fallow.

[TONY R]

 

Good question, two reasons, one is that the Game king is a full metal jacket and secondly its a boat tail and I wanted the heaviest bullet for its length as my 223 has a 1:12 twist. The 1360 is a heavier jacketed bullet than the other 55grs available designed more for higher speeds of the 22.250 so with less speed the expansion should be more controlled. On a small deer like a Munty I'm not sure if the Game king would expand enough without a lot of speed, maybe on a Roe (Scotland) it would be ideal, is anyone using them? My Quest was for an ideal munty bullet, if the 1360 had not been so ideal then I would have tried Game kings, the 1360 size for size acts very similarly to using 100gr Prohunters in 243 on Fallow.

I understand your concers re the .223s speed and the 55 game king, they are a well constructed bullet, 1365 is the game king i had in mind, the 1335 FMJ is more a pelt harvester for .22250s, i would never consider that bullet.

the 55 GK 1365 could well mussroom ok on a munty i have not used them for this but they work on roe ok.

Only reason i mentioned it is the nature of the beat and its lair so to speak, Scrub and if it hits a bone a bit soon , i felt the varminter might be a bit of a wrecker, where as the Game king SBT 55 could buck the bbrush a little better and be more reliable with regards shot placement, just a sujestion not a critisisum.