Chris Packham/Grouse Shooting - Merged Threads

[panoma1]

Written questions, rhetorical or otherwise require a question mark....or they did when I went to school.

[Scully]

Right. Only its hard to tell which one is which, with so many question marks about, and we don't learn much from rhetorical questions.

[big bad lindz]

Anyone read the Shoot magazine this month. There is a photo of CP resting his chin on his hand with two fingers running up his cheek. Is he trying to say something. Not long ago some other celebs were given a right roasting for making a similar gesture with there fingers.

Also some good reading regarding grouse shooting.

[scotslad]

Sorry to reseruct an old thread.

Due to a couple of different reason only had my first day down on the moors this week.

 

Just as i suspected like every year some moors are doing well others not so good generally dependant if they got some snow that fell late april time. But most moors no matter how they've faired still have a decent harvest to take

 

Most off the bigger moors (even the ones with poor numbers) are still shooting biggish days and will be shooting 3/4 days for another few weeks yet and thats on the poorer moors. Spoke to 1 keeper he's already worried that they won't be able to get enough shot by winter time, the moors in his area are breaking all the records, his moor has smashed 2 of the beat records by 50% this season.

 

So for M&S to try to make out there is no 'sustainably' shot grouse on the market is complete BS, there just trying to save face and cover there **** and bottling it big time (althou i still maintain if there trying to get into selling game meat grouse is not the best place to start anyway, not the best tasting and has too much baggage with it)

Or unless they have had some very bad advice (which i doubt) and somehow manged to pick every poorly performing moor there is and even then they would still have thousands of brace a week to sell

 

Had a right good craic with the owner on last drive, talking about this sort of stuff. He's 1 of the most honest forward looking moor owners i've met has involved local school kids to do curlew counts etc and quite involved with pR type stuff as well as a few other things,

He reckoned the whole M&S is just pure politics and total bottle job.

The money these boys are spending is just phenominal,

The ammount of over graved heather moorland (rubbish grassland) that has been/being restored is massive, many moors are doing 00's if not 000's of acres at roughly 80-100 quid an acre, thats an investment thst will realistically never turn a profit and will take 10yrs before u ever see any benefit.

 

I also see Langholm moor project has finished, well keepering anyway. Be interesting to see just how fast the moor boidiversity falls, esp in the 1st 2-3 yrs that will be due almost entirley due to vermin as the lack of habitat management won't kick in till after that.Website making big claims about how the habitat work has improved the black game numbers (not a lot of mention about the vermin control) we'll see how quick they'll slide back

Only tok a few years after last proect for grouse to be very rare on the moor, althou birds were in a through/bust part of the cycle.

[Scully]

I can't accept M&S have 'bottled it' on the hearsay or opinion of one owner or a keeper you talked to, and the 'phenomenal' amounts of money grouse moor owners are spending is irrelevant regarding the issue of M&S buying shot grouse.

Grouse moor owners spend phenomenal amounts of money every season, but no amount of money can control the weather.

Have you spoken to M&S or just your keeper friend?

Put it another way; if 80,000 dissenting voices ( the number which was reached if I recall when it was announced M&S wouldn't be stocking grouse on their shelves ) out of a potential 30,000,000 buyers can dissuade M&S, how irrelevant does that make the 'phenomenal' amounts of money grouse moor owners are spending, or how insignificant does it make the years of time and effort of those grouse moor owners, keepers, and all our live quarry shooting organisations? Where are all the shooting organisations which could have lobbied M&S, or the hundreds of thousands of quarry shooters who could have lobbied M&S?

If M&S have bottled it due to such an insignificant amount of dissenting voices, then basically, we're stuffed.

[scotslad]

Fair play then.

 

But if u honestly think a company like M&S or there advisers can't do there homework to find 5 or 6 moors to provide enough grouse to sell.

And with grouse more so than any other product there will always be the chance of demand outstripping supply but thats just the way things are and it will always be a short window, sometime only 3-5 weeks other years could be 3 months, but it's seasonal anyway so u will never have year round fresh supply

Now more so than ever before is a supply of grouse almost guarrantee'd most years, just varies how large it will be.

Hell even i could do that and i'm not overly knowledgeable about it. It really wouldn't be hard to source 4-5000 brace a week from 5-6 of the bigger estates

 

It IS a bottle job pure and simple M&S have made a mistake even trying to market grouse in the first place (in my opinion, many other nicer and cheaper game birds animals they could easily market without all this negative pr) so there looking for a way out that they can save face and not look like there doing the U turn that they are.

If they really wanted to market game most sensible/knowledgeable PR folk would have focussed on other game. The PR/marketing folk have made a massive cock up and are trying to get out of it.

That petion by avery about grouse shooting, think this is the 3rd/4th attempt off the exact same petion to get 100'000 names the previous 1's have bombed with few names the marketing men have tried something contraversial for the sake of it got it wrong at the worst time so have tried to save face

They could easily hammer partridge pheasant pigeon duck, all cheap as chips to buy and generally easy to cook and nice to eat (oppisate of grouse on all 3 fronts), few years ago ws about 70p a brace of pheasant from dealers. Not a lot of cash for 4-6lb of meat even when u add proccessing costs still very cheap meat

 

Do u think the 80'000 dissenting voices actually have a clue wether there is a sustainable grouse harvest or not? It's a good sound bite that is plausable to most folk so they accept it.

The number of grouse harvested every year is truely staggering if M&S and there advisers can't find a supply there in the wrong job or not looking hard enough.

Even being involved with it i still find it hard to believe the bags some esates shoot day in/out season after season esp in Eng

 

U believe wot u want, but i'd say the views of a well connected and educated owner heavily involved in the industry (as well as pr/marketing and best practice sides of it throu vorious orgs) do have some merit.

 

Must admit not entirely sure wot ur last paragraph is getting at? I'd say 80k is atually quite good for shooters considering how apethetic we generally are or s 80K the folk complaining about M&S stocking grouse??

If it is the later, how many times does a supermarket or anything get 80k of complaints?

Off course they'll stop stocking it, its no rocket science, there aready is a maket for grouse anyway so m&S aren't going to change anything just wanting some publicity for themselves that has dramatically back fired.

Edited September 2, 2016 by scotslad

[Scully]

You've leapt to quite a few assumptions within this post I'm afraid, without anything more than your opinion on which to base them.

Fair play then.

 

But if u honestly think a company like M&S or there advisers can't do there homework to find 5 or 6 moors to provide enough grouse to sell. ​M&S are in contract to certain moors I believe; its big business; it isn't quite as simple as knocking on a few doors when your contracted supplier can't deliver.

And with grouse more so than any other product there will always be the chance of demand outstripping supply but thats just the way things are and it will always be a short window, sometime only 3-5 weeks other years could be 3 months, but it's seasonal anyway so u will never have year round fresh supply They aren't asking for a 'year round' supply, only seasonal.

Now more so than ever before is a supply of grouse almost guarrantee'd most years, just varies how large it will be.

Hell even i could do that and i'm not overly knowledgeable about it. It really wouldn't be hard to source 4-5000 brace a week from 5-6 of the bigger estates Perhaps you should give M&S a call and offer your services as a supplier then? Lots of money to be made for someone like you who obviously has the contacts.

 

It IS a bottle job pure and simple Really? Have you contacted them as I previously asked? Unless you have proof then it is merely your wild assumption based on nothing more than your own obvious resentment. M&S have made a mistake even trying to market grouse in the first place ​Why? M&S have ( as far as I'm aware ) successfully marketed grouse in previous seasons; this isn't new to them. (in my opinion, many other nicer and cheaper game birds animals they could easily market without all this negative pr) so there looking for a way out that they can save face and not look like there doing the U turn that they are.Again, mere assumption.

If they really wanted to market game most sensible/knowledgeable PR folk would have focussed on other game. The PR/marketing folk have made a massive cock up and are trying to get out of it. Without proof this is yet more assumption.

That petion by avery about grouse shooting, think this is the 3rd/4th attempt off the exact same petion to get 100'000 names the previous 1's have bombed with few names the marketing men have tried something contraversial for the sake of it got it wrong at the worst time so have tried to save face And again!

They could easily hammer partridge pheasant pigeon duck, all cheap as chips to buy and generally easy to cook and nice to eat (oppisate of grouse on all 3 fronts), few years ago ws about 70p a brace of pheasant from dealers. Not a lot of cash for 4-6lb of meat even when u add proccessing costs still very cheap meat This may be true, but nothing has quite the same appeal as driven grouse to M&S targeted buyers.

 

Do u think the 80'000 dissenting voices actually have a clue wether there is a sustainable grouse harvest or not? That's totally irrelevant; I doubt they either know nor care. You're missing the point. For them it's not about sustainability; its about killing raptors so those raptors can't interfere with the landed gentry and the well heeled can kill grouse for entertainment. It's a good sound bite that is plausable to most folk so they accept it. What is a good soundbite?

The number of grouse harvested every year is truely staggering if M&S and there advisers can't find a supply there in the wrong job or not looking hard enough.It may not be as simple as that; again, have you bothered to ask them?

Even being involved with it i still find it hard to believe the bags some esates shoot day in/out season after season esp in Eng

 

U believe wot u want, but i'd say the views of a well connected and educated owner heavily involved in the industry (as well as pr/marketing and best practice sides of it throu vorious orgs) do have some merit. That may be true, but again, it's just his opinion.

 

Must admit not entirely sure wot ur last paragraph is getting at? I'd say 80k is atually quite good for shooters considering how apethetic we generally are or s 80K the folk complaining about M&S stocking grouse?? It's the number of folk who signed the petition against grouse shooting, which I believe now stands at over 110,000.

If it is the later, how many times does a supermarket or anything get 80k of complaints? ​I have no idea, do you? Wouldn't it have been great if 80,000 shooters and lobbied M&S directly!

Off course they'll stop stocking it, its no rocket science, there aready is a maket for grouse anyway so m&S aren't going to change anything just wanting some publicity for themselves that has dramatically back fired. There's a bit of skewed logic I can't make head nor tail of.

 

The sad thing about this, is that IF M&S have bottled it due to antis pressure, it means that the entire wealth of the live quarry shooting industry, the entire accumulated lobby of all our shooting organisations and the entire number of live quarry shooters in this country couldn't mount an effective PR counter campaign against 110,000 dissenting voices!

Now that isn't an assumption; that's a fact. What does that say about us? Doesn't exactly bode well for the future does it?

[scotslad]

Ur last paragraph about sums it up thou, in this modern culture and twitter/social media and all that **** there is a large ammont of folk that just want to be offended by allmost anything and will have forgot about it seconds later. Most will have clicked a like/dislike button without thinking about it.

 

Thats why we have to be far more proactive about shooting and game meat in general 20-30 years ago it was the norm, i used to chap strangers doors selling rabbits i had ferreted. I get chased now if it turned up wih a badly gutted bloody rabbbit still in its fur (was only a young boy)

 

Look at it from the other side, rom M&S or the marketing folk

 

Grouse is never going to be a high volume seller, or something with very high profit margins due to its seasonality and supply some years.

So why even try to market it?? (i may be wrong but pretty sure M&S have just make noises about it but never really sold it, think they sold it once got loads of compliants so quickily took it off the shelfs and strarted all this ******** with choosing estates with higher standards, which is nonesense as grouse is a wild bird very little estates can do to make it a better product that they don't all already do.)

 

The only reason they have tried to market it is to make there supermarket seem more exclusive/posh, they don't really care about game shooting any fool could of predicted the fake moral outrage that was going to come there way via twitter and how the tabliods would lap it up.

No pr/marketing monkey is going to stand up to 80K compliants about a product they will stock for weeks/months with very little profit marign and by the time the add in marketing cost and posters etc i bet they would lose money stocking/selling grouse.

 

For me it's a no brainer, make up an excuse that gets u out of it but still saving face, its a pr/marketting stunt that has blew up in there faces.

 

So 110k signed a petion 80k complianed directly to u about stocking it,really u'd be crazy to stock it from a marketing/pr point of view.

How many complianed about them not stocking it? Even if they done a complete u turn no one would really have complained anyway but they got out of it blaming supply problems when most moors are doing fairly well??

I'd say a win win for the marketing men started an ill thought out product, got loads of abuse,looking for a way out without looking silly, but can easily blame the suppliers/weather jobs a good 1

 

There is already a market for all the grouse shot, so M&S isn't offering anything that is not already there, just a bit of publicty bbut most of it tends to be bad publicity thou

 

80K folk don't complain about wars, famines or beheadings shown on social media but are upset at a type of meat a supermarket they never go into sells?

Really quite a sad reflection on modern society

 

Can u not buy frozen ready meals from aldi/lidl with all sorts of game in them (venison, wild boar) and no moral outrage. It is just a class thing.Which is the reason why they wanted to stock grouse in first place

 

Wether or not i'm making assumptions we'll never know, but i don't jus believe everything i'm told unless it makes some sense.

The sheer volume of grouse harvested every year if would really not be hard to pick 5-6 good moors where u could almost guarantee a fairly steady supply of grouse, it all depends on volume but even i culd name moors that combined will be shooting 3-5000 brace a week right throu august and into sept most years before dropping off

If the grouse harvest was more like on scottish moors i could understand it as grouse numbers are lower and moors fewer and closer together so bad weather can affect them more and some years will still be little shooting still quite sporadic on all but a few moors.

But in N Eng grouse is plentiful most years even bad years right thou august, its just ur september or october, novemeber days that are cancelled/not sold

 

i know that moor owner have been going there for years, i know all the work he does with the local community and down in london with various different orgs and political things and he is 1 of the more forward looking and active owners there will be, i'm not about to mention half wot we talked about on an open forum.

 

U will believe wot u want to believe, despite wot u think my mind is open about M&S but just really struggle to see how it was in any way possible not to source some grouse to sell. They have either been very badly advised (which i also find hard to believe) or they have misintrepted the ammount of stick they were taking and looking for a way out.

I know with farm porducts they insist on alot of BS farm visits and silly conditions and often exclusivity (if u sell pigs,sheep,beef to m&S often not allowed to sell it to anyone else or take it to market) With grouse u can'thouse themin better sheds, imporve ur breeding lines or better quality feed so unless the m7s selected moor owners can control the weather there not doing anything different that the neighbours aren't doing

[Scully]

Ur last paragraph about sums it up thou, in this modern culture and twitter/social media and all that **** there is a large ammont of folk that just want to be offended by allmost anything and will have forgot about it seconds later. Most will have clicked a like/dislike button without thinking about it. Agreed, it takes seconds to click on a button; but those who oppose us seem to able to manage it. They would appear to have more passion about their beliefs than we have about ours. To claim 'most will have clicked a like/dislike button without thinking about it' is yet again, just a wild assumption on your part. How do you know that? It is dangerously lethargic to dismiss antis with such pomposity.

 

Thats why we have to be far more proactive about shooting and game meat in general 20-30 years ago it was the norm, i used to chap strangers doors selling rabbits i had ferreted. I get chased now if it turned up wih a badly gutted bloody rabbbit still in its fur (was only a young boy) Totally irrelevant. It matters not a jot what you did in your youth; it is NOW which matters.

 

Look at it from the other side, rom M&S or the marketing folk

 

Grouse is never going to be a high volume seller, or something with very high profit margins due to its seasonality and supply some years.

So why even try to market it?? I can safely assume you haven't asked M&S then? (i may be wrong but pretty sure M&S have just make noises about it but never really sold it, think they sold it once got loads of compliants so quickily took it off the shelfs and strarted all this ******* with choosing estates with higher standards, which is nonesense as grouse is a wild bird very little estates can do to make it a better product that they don't all already do.) ​Again...where are you getting all this information? Do you just make it up? The threat to driven grouse shooting is real; it's no good simply forming opinions about M&S or the antis. The antis are winning this battle; we need something much more than taking the huff with M&S to combat it. Criticising M&S wont win the battle or the war.

You do similar when making the repeated claim that grouse shooting is much more sustainable and morally acceptable than any other form of live quarry shooting. That may be the case but who cares? The antis certainly don't! Grouse are killed for the same reason that pheasants, ducks, pigeons and partridge are...for sport. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't defend driven grouse shooting by criticising other forms of shooting nor those who choose to sell it.

 

The only reason they have tried to market it is to make there supermarket seem more exclusive/posh, they don't really care about game shooting any fool could of predicted the fake moral outrage that was going to come there way via twitter and how the tabliods would lap it up. Of course they dont care about grouse shooting, why should they? They're in business and only concerned about making a profit.

No pr/marketing monkey is going to stand up to 80K compliants about a product they will stock for weeks/months with very little profit marign and by the time the add in marketing cost and posters etc i bet they would lose money stocking/selling grouse. Totally irrelevant again, but I cant see M&S stocking anything to sell at a loss.

 

For me it's a no brainer, make up an excuse that gets u out of it but still saving face, its a pr/marketting stunt that has blew up in there faces. ​If you're not prepared to ask M&S then again, it's all just opinion.

 

So 110k signed a petion 80k complianed directly to u about stocking it,really u'd be crazy to stock it from a marketing/pr point of view.

How many complianed about them not stocking it? Even if they done a complete u turn no one would really have complained anyway but they got out of it blaming supply problems when most moors are doing fairly well??

I'd say a win win for the marketing men started an ill thought out product, got loads of abuse,looking for a way out without looking silly, but can easily blame the suppliers/weather jobs a good 1Assumption...again.

 

There is already a market for all the grouse shot, so M&S isn't offering anything that is not already there, just a bit of publicty bbut most of it tends to be bad publicity thou

 

80K folk don't complain about wars, famines or beheadings shown on social media but are upset at a type of meat a supermarket they never go into sells?

Really quite a sad reflection on modern society Yes, it is. It is also totally irrelevant.

 

Can u not buy frozen ready meals from aldi/lidl with all sorts of game in them (venison, wild boar) and no moral outrage. It is just a class thing.Which is the reason why they wanted to stock grouse in first place

 

Wether or not i'm making assumptions we'll never know, Without validation from the sources involved it can't be anything else. but i don't jus believe everything i'm told unless it makes some sense.

The sheer volume of grouse harvested every year if would really not be hard to pick 5-6 good moors where u could almost guarantee a fairly steady supply of grouse, it all depends on volume but even i culd name moors that combined will be shooting 3-5000 brace a week right throu august and into sept most years before dropping off

If the grouse harvest was more like on scottish moors i could understand it as grouse numbers are lower and moors fewer and closer together so bad weather can affect them more and some years will still be little shooting still quite sporadic on all but a few moors.

But in N Eng grouse is plentiful most years even bad years right thou august, its just ur september or october, novemeber days that are cancelled/not sold

 

i know that moor owner have been going there for years, i know all the work he does with the local community and down in london with various different orgs and political things and he is 1 of the more forward looking and active owners there will be, i'm not about to mention half wot we talked about on an open forum.

 

U will believe wot u want to believe, ​despite wot u think my mind is open about M&S No, your mind isn't open about M&S at all; that much is clear. You've assumed many things about them, without having anything more than secondhand opinion on which to form that assumption, none of which is going to do anything to protect the driven grouse you cherish so much. M&S aren't the enemy here; you can find the enemy much closer to home if you care to look. but just really struggle to see how it was in any way possible not to source some grouse to sell. Then ask them! It's not rocket science! They have either been very badly advised (which i also find hard to believe) or they have misintrepted the ammount of stick they were taking and looking for a way out.

I know with farm porducts they insist on alot of BS farm visits and silly conditions and often exclusivity (if u sell pigs,sheep,beef to m&S often not allowed to sell it to anyone else or take it to market) With grouse u can'thouse themin better sheds, imporve ur breeding lines or better quality feed so unless the m7s selected moor owners can control the weather there not doing anything different that the neighbours aren't doing I'm sorry but most of that was simply illegible.

 

[ben0850]

For interest I acted on an email from BASC and contacted my MP about grouse shooting, see response below;

[panoma1]

Hope Julian Smith attends for and speaks in the debate and reiterates his support in parliament!

[felly100]

Does he do his signature on an etcha-sketch?

[ShootingEgg]

Here is mine from Liam Fox

 

Thank you for your email about grouse shooting. I enclose a most interesting article from Matt Ridley whose opinion on these issues is respected among environmentalists.

 

I share concerns over the illegal persecution of raptors and would encourage anyone with information about it to report what they know to the authorities. I believe that the Governments commitment to tackling wildlife crime was highlighted by its decision to fund the UKs specialist National Wildlife Crime Unit fully until at least 2020.

 

With regard to concerns about the impact of grouse shooting on moorland, in my view game management can make an important contribution to biodiversity by providing cover for wildlife, and through the creation and care of habitats such as woodland, grouse moors, beetle banks and hedgerows.

 

You may be interested to know that the vast majority of grouse moors that are sites of special scientific interest are now in favourable or recovering condition, whereas only around half were in that state in 2006. This reflects growing awareness among moorland managers of the importance and sensitivity of upland biodiversity.

 

Game management plays an important role in the rural economy, generating income and employment in some of our most remote communities. For example, shooting contributes in the region of £2 billion to the rural economy and supports the equivalent of around 70,000 full-time jobs.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely

 

LIAM FOX

[Scully]

Does he do his signature on an etcha-sketch?

 

You're showing your age.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Scully

[Adge Cutler]

The simple fact is, as I've said before ,( albeit in a previous life ,) game shooters are in a absolute minority in this country and we are a nation of bird lovers. Wild bird feed is a multi million pound business and these facts cannot be disputed.

 

Also the population trends of Red and Black Grouse over the last 40 years are declining, despite grouse shooting estates trying hard to reinforce species numbers by conservation and habitat management.

 

Red grouse are a RSPB amber status bird and Black, red status.

 

If grouse shooting is to be safeguarded ( and I hope it is ) the shooting conservationists and non shooting naturalists need to get their heads together and come up with a tangible action plan.

 

A good start would be an acceptance that nature will always find a balance without human intervention and the obvious persecution of magnificent birds of prey needs to stop.

 

What a fantastic PR coup it would be for a Grouse moor owner to be able to declare they have supported successful breeding of Hen Harriers on the moors rather than deny they knew nothing of the persecution they face.

 

Joe public are not idiots and will make their own minds up petition or no petition.

 

I don't dislike Packham....he just needs educating. shame he's not a shooter as he's completely plausible when he speaks about his passion and the public latch on to this...

Edited September 3, 2016 by Adge Cutler

[scotslad]

 

Ur last paragraph about sums it up thou, in this modern culture and twitter/social media and all that **** there is a large ammont of folk that just want to be offended by allmost anything and will have forgot about it seconds later. Most will have clicked a like/dislike button without thinking about it. Agreed, it takes seconds to click on a button; but those who oppose us seem to able to manage it. They would appear to have more passion about their beliefs than we have about ours. To claim 'most will have clicked a like/dislike button without thinking about it' is yet again, just a wild assumption on your part. How do you know that? It is dangerously lethargic to dismiss antis with such pomposity.

 

Thats why we have to be far more proactive about shooting and game meat in general 20-30 years ago it was the norm, i used to chap strangers doors selling rabbits i had ferreted. I get chased now if it turned up wih a badly gutted bloody rabbbit still in its fur (was only a young boy) Totally irrelevant. It matters not a jot what you did in your youth; it is NOW which matters.

 

Look at it from the other side, rom M&S or the marketing folk

 

Grouse is never going to be a high volume seller, or something with very high profit margins due to its seasonality and supply some years.

So why even try to market it?? I can safely assume you haven't asked M&S then? (i may be wrong but pretty sure M&S have just make noises about it but never really sold it, think they sold it once got loads of compliants so quickily took it off the shelfs and strarted all this ******* with choosing estates with higher standards, which is nonesense as grouse is a wild bird very little estates can do to make it a better product that they don't all already do.) ​Again...where are you getting all this information? Do you just make it up? The threat to driven grouse shooting is real; it's no good simply forming opinions about M&S or the antis. The antis are winning this battle; we need something much more than taking the huff with M&S to combat it. Criticising M&S wont win the battle or the war.

You do similar when making the repeated claim that grouse shooting is much more sustainable and morally acceptable than any other form of live quarry shooting. That may be the case but who cares? The antis certainly don't! Grouse are killed for the same reason that pheasants, ducks, pigeons and partridge are...for sport. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't defend driven grouse shooting by criticising other forms of shooting nor those who choose to sell it.

 

So u reckon a large national supermarket with a fancy webpage etc is going to deviate from there well worded excuse written by expensive PR folk? I very much doubt it

If u read the statement from M&s websites gives u a load of blurb about the best grouse moors in coutry etc, yet they have no grouse to shoot? Just doesn't add up.

Fair enough last year was generally an poor to average season all round but some moors still shot some decent bags. This year its generally a good to average season all round with quite a few moors having excellent seasons, if u can't source grouse this year u will never source grouse.

I know u live near to moors but do u actually realise the volume of birds shot on some moors?

 

 

Do u also believe everything politians tell u too?

 

I try to be very caareful when i gritise other forms of shooting but when u see some off the posts on here that the toffs should be defending it on there own etc it does not help matters.

There winning because divide and conquer does work esp when u add in the class war angle.

 

The only reason they have tried to market it is to make there supermarket seem more exclusive/posh, they don't really care about game shooting any fool could of predicted the fake moral outrage that was going to come there way via twitter and how the tabliods would lap it up. Of course they dont care about grouse shooting, why should they? They're in business and only concerned about making a profit.

No pr/marketing monkey is going to stand up to 80K compliants about a product they will stock for weeks/months with very little profit marign and by the time the add in marketing cost and posters etc i bet they would lose money stocking/selling grouse. Totally irrelevant again, but I cant see M&S stocking anything to sell at a loss.

 

Have u never heard of loss leaders? Not that uncommon for supermarkets to sell some stuff at a loss to either attract u in or raise there brand awarness (which is wot i ASSUME marks were trying to do to make them seem a higher end supermarket)

 

For me it's a no brainer, make up an excuse that gets u out of it but still saving face, its a pr/marketting stunt that has blew up in there faces. ​If you're not prepared to ask M&S then again, it's all just opinion.

Yes it may be just an opinion but it does not make it wrong. Do u not know anyone who works in politics/pr or marketing, i've got a couple of mates and its the type of get out of jail free excuse they'd jump at. No supermarket wants 80K complaints about a product they haven't even started to stock yet.

 

So 110k signed a petion 80k complianed directly to u about stocking it,really u'd be crazy to stock it from a marketing/pr point of view.

How many complianed about them not stocking it? Even if they done a complete u turn no one would really have complained anyway but they got out of it blaming supply problems when most moors are doing fairly well??

I'd say a win win for the marketing men started an ill thought out product, got loads of abuse,looking for a way out without looking silly, but can easily blame the suppliers/weather jobs a good 1Assumption...again.

 

There is already a market for all the grouse shot, so M&S isn't offering anything that is not already there, just a bit of publicty bbut most of it tends to be bad publicity thou

 

80K folk don't complain about wars, famines or beheadings shown on social media but are upset at a type of meat a supermarket they never go into sells?

Really quite a sad reflection on modern society Yes, it is. It is also totally irrelevant.

 

Can u not buy frozen ready meals from aldi/lidl with all sorts of game in them (venison, wild boar) and no moral outrage. It is just a class thing.Which is the reason why they wanted to stock grouse in first place

 

Wether or not i'm making assumptions we'll never know, Without validation from the sources involved it can't be anything else.

So ur 'source' is obviously to be believed above any other info? Do u not try to read between the lines sometimes and make up ur own mind.

There should be a few articles coming out shortly in the broadsheets and FT about grouse shooting and the finnacial aspect as well as conservation angles

 

but i don't jus believe everything i'm told unless it makes some sense.

The sheer volume of grouse harvested every year if would really not be hard to pick 5-6 good moors where u could almost guarantee a fairly steady supply of grouse, it all depends on volume but even i culd name moors that combined will be shooting 3-5000 brace a week right throu august and into sept most years before dropping off

If the grouse harvest was more like on scottish moors i could understand it as grouse numbers are lower and moors fewer and closer together so bad weather can affect them more and some years will still be little shooting still quite sporadic on all but a few moors.

But in N Eng grouse is plentiful most years even bad years right thou august, its just ur september or october, novemeber days that are cancelled/not sold

 

i know that moor owner have been going there for years, i know all the work he does with the local community and down in london with various different orgs and political things and he is 1 of the more forward looking and active owners there will be, i'm not about to mention half wot we talked about on an open forum.

 

U will believe wot u want to believe, ​despite wot u think my mind is open about M&S No, your mind isn't open about M&S at all; that much is clear. You've assumed many things about them, without having anything more than secondhand opinion on which to form that assumption, none of which is going to do anything to protect the driven grouse you cherish so much. M&S aren't the enemy here; you can find the enemy much closer to home if you care to look. but just really struggle to see how it was in any way possible not to source some grouse to sell. Then ask them! It's not rocket science! They have either been very badly advised (which i also find hard to believe) or they have misintrepted the ammount of stick they were taking and looking for a way out.

I know with farm porducts they insist on alot of BS farm visits and silly conditions and often exclusivity (if u sell pigs,sheep,beef to m&S often not allowed to sell it to anyone else or take it to market) With grouse u can'thouse themin better sheds, imporve ur breeding lines or better quality feed so unless the m7s selected moor owners can control the weather there not doing anything different that the neighbours aren't doing I'm sorry but most of that was simply illegible.

 

 

I take it u have never been involved with selling direct of the farm to M&S then?

Usually to become a supplier its like quality assurance on steriods with lots of pointless hoops to jump throu, every thing is vetted animal housing/conditions, ur type/strain of animal, wot u fed them etc, any new sheds or different handling or rearing systems have to be approved, even if u want to change ur breed/use different bulls has to be approved and not uncommon to be 100% exclusive so u can only sell ur stock to M&S no matter wot they offer u.

Some of it has a point with farm livestock to a degree althou taken far too far, with grouse it is all completely irrelevant as a completely wild bird so very little u can do to alter the product, and almost every moor will be doing the exact same asjust best practice anyway

 

[scotslad]

Are the 2 letters not quite simiar to each other a couple of sentances and the paragraph about SSsi's being in good condition are practially identical.

Do u think it is a stock letter to send out to shooters altered/cut and pasted very slightly for different mp's so not all the exact same.

 

Would actually be interesting to send them a letter complaining about grouse shooting, see if they send u out a similar letter expressing there support for grouse shooting and highlighting the benefits OR do u think they have an other standard letter they send out for the antis expressing there concerns about grouse shooting.

So just telling the voters wot they want to hear to secure a vote. Possibly i'm just a cynic thou

(u would have to follow the original letter up with a follow up leter explaining wot u were doing thou)

[ShootingEgg]

Scotslad i did notice the similarities, thats why i added mine from Liam Fox. Although he states in his response that its not his words.

 

Also your comment "telling voters what they want to hear" they are in politics, ofcourse they do that..

[scotslad]

No i reallise that but even if it means having 2 letters composed almost the exact oppisate of each other.

 

The letters are pretty strong in support of grouse shooting/shooting in general, would be interesting as a 'conrol' to see if they have a 2nd letter prepared which is equally as strong for the banning of grouse shoting?

It would be nice if they did send that letter out as well even to the anti's

[Brixsmaid]

I think it's a shame we are spending so much time and squabbling/debating amongst ourselves, rather then uniting/ standing together to defend our sport. How many game shooters are there?

 

The most helpful thing for me is some idea what I should be asking my MP in an email? I'm not the most literate person and would love a draft I could use.

[BrowningB525]

No response as yet from Yvette Cooper.

I think it's a shame we are spending so much time and squabbling/debating amongst ourselves, rather then uniting/ standing together to defend our sport. How many game shooters are there?

 

The most helpful thing for me is some idea what I should be asking my MP in an email? I'm not the most literate person and would love a draft I could use.

There's a basc website where you type your details in and it contacts them for you.

[Scully]

I've seen the M&S blurb Scotslad, and also all the relevant RSPB ones. I've never once claimed that M&S haven't bottled it, but according to my source ( which is possibly just as biased as yours ) they haven't, and until I can find real evidence that they have then I'll keep an open mind.

Yes, I've heard of loss leaders, I just find it hard to believe a professional and leading high street consumer brand would risk such potential damage to their customer base by choosing a produce which would attract such controversy. As PR marketing exercises go ( or even as a gauge of public reaction ) it's not up there with the best is it?

 

Criticising other forms of shooting isn't being 'careful' at all, it develops resentment and a closed shop. Have you asked your keeper friend why grouse moor owners have inflicted this damage on themselves by the illegal persecution of raptors? Or do you just intend to blame M&S through sheer speculation? If grouse moor owners who by your admission spend 'phenomenal' amounts of money can't mount an effective anti anti campaign, then what chance do the rest of us stand? Friends in high places will only be effective if they can clean up their act, and not even Iceland will touch them if they can't.

Believe it or not I have worked in the food industry and was deeply involved with the companies BS5750 quality assurance scheme when we dealt with companies such as Farleys, Cow & Gate and Mars, producing the much less controversial product of whey concentrates and powders for human consumption. Baby food basically.

Lastly, no, I don't believe everything politicians tell me, but choose to keep an open mind. Reading between the lines is all well and good, but it still doesn't qualify as evidence or proof.

Rather than try to deviate blame for this issue, your time would be better spent telling your keeper friend that unless he and his chums ( the people who are without doubt responsible for this predicament; and that is a fact proven beyond all doubt that not even you can deny ) clean up their act they'll take us all down with them, but M&S will carry on regardless.

[scotslad]

Must admit scully i find it very hard to figure out wot ur actually getting at.

 

I'm in the wrong for assuming that in a year with grouse being shot pretty much all over and many moors having excellent years, yet i should be believed a big well resourced supermarket can't find any.

 

But it is ok for u to tarnish all/most grouse keepers with illegal persecution of raptors?? Ur not even trying to disguise it. Yet i should't critise any other form of shooting Takes a bit of figureing out.

If u look at recent confirmed cases of raptor persecutions and guility verdicts most have been of lowland keepers. Was there not a pheasant keeper that had a freezer full of buzzards as well as feed bags with them in fairly recently? Was it not quite a high number too? Or does that not affect the sport as anti's not focussing on it??

Think been quite a while since an been anyone convicted of shooting a HH which is the raptor most common on moorland

So how come the upland keepers are getting the blame.

Raptor persecution is at an all time low in scotland and down to single figures of confirmed cases, and i imagine it is the exact same in england too.

 

Think it was the Moorland Assoc had some figures of recent HH nesting succeses in Eng and ALL were from managed grouse moors. So it's not as rare as these sites try to make out. Also historically HH has never been a common breeding bird in eng anyway

 

Mibee u should stop believing all ur read on the Rspb and raptorpphile groups (who interesting enough tend to agree that M&S have bottled it due to there pressure, think the only comment on there websites i agree with) u claim grouse shooters are responsible for this predicamnet.

Complete nonesense Avery and his chums with the peddling of lies is the problem, there is very very little evidence of any widespread raptor persecution, hell i even know a geordie keeper up in angus glens that made the papers by shooting a branch out of a tree that an eagle was tangled up in and took it to the local resue centre.

 

If anything all shooters are just as responsible for keeping our heads down and hoping the problem will go away, as i said earlier (labeled irrelevant by u)

 

Scully were not doing any favours here and taking away from the thread, i may not be the most literate or best at writing in these thing but i do know woti'm talking about and have a very good idea the numbers of grouse being shot on many estates, Grouse keeping/shooting is a very very small community, quite a few times guns i've picked up/loaded for in yorkshire or borders have turned up in the highlands on moors i've been up visiting to work my dogs and see different areas/moors.

Most keepers all talk about there bags (althou would not want them broadcast on here) so it does not take that long to have a pretty good idea wot bags are being shot where and hows numbers are

1 simple fact is there is NO shortage of grouse this year, Marks have either bottled it OR been badly advised and picked the wrong estates (which i don't beieve either, as its really not that hard to pick a few estates thats amost always perform very well)

 

I know u live near grouse country but have u ever been out on the hill and done much driven grouse beating? a lot of ur comments give the impression u haven't (but i may be wrong, won't be first or last time)

Scully this tit for tat between us is not doing any favours, i most definately will not change my mind (and i would say it is open, but i do know trust my sources and know exactly how involved they re and how much work they do to protect grouse shooting, and also my intellegence to not just take things as gospel from anyone and make up my own mind that suits the facts, so far u've gave no facts aother than the 'offical comment' and a bloke u know) and i doubt u will change ur's either.

But the fact that grouse are fairly plentiful this year again and yet they can't find any not ring some alarm bells?

 

Tell u wot no matter wot the weather is for the next year i'll make a prediction for u, next year grouse will also not be at sustainable levels to be shot so no stock for M&S.

U heard it here 1st. If i'm wrong i'll put 50 quid to decent charity of ur choice (althou idealy conservation related eg GWCT, Songbird survival or NGO has an educaional trust doesn't it?) Can't say fairer than that

 

 

As for the supermarkets marketing team, i have no idea wot they were thinking, but have mates in that line of work and they're pretty good at it, some of the stupid ideas and brain farts they have had to deal with from others is just unbelievable. Esp coming from degree educated people, so it would not surprise me 1 bit if this was a cunning ploy to try increase the M&S brand awarness to put M&S on a level with Harrods? or some real fancy uperclass supermarket (not any in my neck of woods) and they underestimated the antis support.

 

Just as an side previosly i mentioned its due the the click and slide culture and most folk won't know wot there liking, u gave the 80K or the 110K that signed the petion quite a lot of credit. If they really believe in there cause where have they been the previous 3 years when avery had the exact same petion running but never got aything like this support??

The vast mahority of folk aren't overly bothered but at same time don't really know much about it so lies and mis truths are easily accepted and passedfor fact.

Even many shooters won't know that much about grouse moor management and how it all works and numbers involved

Edited September 4, 2016 by scotslad

[Scully]

Must admit scully i find it very hard to figure out wot ur actually getting at. I'm getting at people who base their arguments on nothing more than their biased opinion, rather than hard evidence. M&S may have indeed bottled it, but you don't know that for definite, anymore than I do; but you're making it out as fact.

 

I'm in the wrong for assuming that in a year with grouse being shot pretty much all over and many moors having excellent years, yet i should be believed a big well resourced supermarket can't find any.

I've never said you were in the wrong at all; merely pointed out that what you are claiming as fact regarding the reasons for M&S not stocking grouse this season, isn't proven.

 

But it is ok for u to tarnish all/most grouse keepers with illegal persecution of raptors?? Ur not even trying to disguise it. Yet i should't critise any other form of shooting Takes a bit of figureing out. The difference between you and me is that I'm not trying to defend driven pheasant shooting by criticising driven grouse shooting, whereas you are, and repeatedly so. Of course not all keepers are responsible for raptor persecution, but some are, including those on grouse moors, and it's just as illegal on lowland as well as high land moors. Why should I try and disguise it?! It isn't even my opinion; but hard facts backed up by evidence. If u look at recent confirmed cases of raptor persecutions and guility verdicts most have been of lowland keepers. So what? I've never tried to claim driven pheasant shooting is squeaky clean, but have never tried to deflect criticism of it by criticising any other form of shooting either, which you repeatedly do. Do you not understand; we are killing living creatures for no other reason than we enjoy it.....morals and ethics don't even come into it as you have tried to claim. The killing of raptors is illegal; whomever it is carried out by. Was there not a pheasant keeper that had a freezer full of buzzards as well as feed bags with them in fairly recently? Was it not quite a high number too? ​I have no idea, but are you trying yet again to defend grouse moor keepers by criticising pheasant keepers? Or does that not affect the sport as anti's not focussing on it?? Of course it affects us because it's still illegal!

Think been quite a while since an been anyone convicted of shooting a HH which is the raptor most common on moorland

So how come the upland keepers are getting the blame. Because the issue is driven grouse shooting and M&S, as kicked off by Packham and Avery and the RSPB. You appear to be blaming M&S for the current situation and possible reasons of them not stocking grouse this season, whereas even if it were true, the blame clearly lies elsewhere.

Raptor persecution is at an all time low in scotland and down to single figures of confirmed cases, and i imagine it is the exact same in england too.

 

Think it was the Moorland Assoc had some figures of recent HH nesting succeses in Eng and ALL were from managed grouse moors. So it's not as rare as these sites try to make out. Also historically HH has never been a common breeding bird in eng anyway

I may be wrong but I read that the highest numbers of HH breeding pairs is on land keepered for driven grouse shooting; higher than even land owned by the RSPB, but that news doesn't make headlines in as much a dramatic manner as one which is illegally killed. All it takes is for one to be illegally killed and it doesn't matter how many were successfully reared; all that hard work has been undone.

 

Mibee u should stop believing all ur read on the Rspb and raptorpphile groups (who interesting enough tend to agree that M&S have bottled it due to there pressure, think the only comment on there websites i agree with) u claim grouse shooters are responsible for this predicament. I tend not to believe much of what I read on websites that clearly have agendas, but I haven't claimed grouse shooters are responsible for this predicament, but rather the illegal actions of some of their keepers. Let me ask you this question: if some grouse moor keepers aren't responsible for the current predicament, then who is?

Complete nonesense Avery and his chums with the peddling of lies is the problem, ​I have absolutely no doubt there is much lying and fabrication of facts going on, but it is only PART of the problem. there is very very little evidence of any widespread raptor persecution, You just don't get it do you? It doesn't have to widespread; it just has to happen once, and then the entire shooting industry and everyone in it is tarred with the same brush. We not only have to be seen to be squeaky clean, but we literally have to be squeaky clean, because not even that will stop the antis. We need to be able to turn round to them and say 'prove it' while knowing without doubt that they can't. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I'm really pleased that the petition to stop driven grouse shooting will hopefully get its day in Parliament, because perhaps then we'll all get to know the facts. I'm not worried; why should I be? Are you? hell i even know a geordie keeper up in angus glens that made the papers by shooting a branch out of a tree that an eagle was tangled up in and took it to the local resue centre. Good for him.

 

If anything all shooters are just as responsible for keeping our heads down and hoping the problem will go away, as i said earlier (labeled irrelevant by u)

 

Scully were not doing any favours here and taking away from the thread, i may not be the most literate or best at writing in these thing but i do know woti'm talking about and have a very good idea the numbers of grouse being shot on many estates, Grouse keeping/shooting is a very very small community, quite a few times guns i've picked up/loaded for in yorkshire or borders have turned up in the highlands on moors i've been up visiting to work my dogs and see different areas/moors.

Most keepers all talk about there bags (althou would not want them broadcast on here) so it does not take that long to have a pretty good idea wot bags are being shot where and hows numbers are

1 simple fact is there is NO shortage of grouse this year, Marks have either bottled it OR been badly advised and picked the wrong estates (which i don't beieve either, as its really not that hard to pick a few estates thats amost always perform very well) ​I can give you exact figures for one or two of the estates so far this season...but I wont; what does that prove?

 

I know u live near grouse country but have u ever been out on the hill and done much driven grouse beating? a lot of ur comments give the impression u haven't (but i may be wrong, won't be first or last time) I've only been a couple of times; it isn't really my thing, but I do know many of those involved, including keepers. It's hard not know anyone who isn't involved in some way, around here. My nephew and his mates love it and go at every opportunity, but they admit they only do it for the promise of the shooting. Lets be honest, the 'phenomenal' amounts of money involved never finds its way to the beaters!

Scully this tit for tat between us is not doing any favours, i most definately will not change my mind (and i would say it is open, but i do know trust my sources and know exactly how involved they re and how much work they do to protect grouse shooting, and also my intellegence to not just take things as gospel from anyone and make up my own mind that suits the facts, so far u've gave no facts aother than the 'offical comment' and a bloke u know) and i doubt u will change ur's either. I doubt your sources are in any better decision to judge than mine, but mine is also keeper based. Strange eh?

But the fact that grouse are fairly plentiful this year again and yet they can't find any not ring some alarm bells? It can ring all the bells it wants, it doesn't prove there's a fire, but would these be the same bells you claim M&S are hearing regarding illegal persecution of raptors on grouse moors?

 

Tell u wot no matter wot the weather is for the next year i'll make a prediction for u, next year grouse will also not be at sustainable levels to be shot so no stock for M&S.

U heard it here 1st. If i'm wrong i'll put 50 quid to decent charity of ur choice (althou idealy conservation related eg GWCT, Songbird survival or NGO has an educaional trust doesn't it?) Can't say fairer than that Very noble of you I'm sure, but this will prove what exactly?

 

 

As for the supermarkets marketing team, i have no idea wot they were thinking, but have mates in that line of work and they're pretty good at it, some of the stupid ideas and brain farts they have had to deal with from others is just unbelievable. Esp coming from degree educated people, so it would not surprise me 1 bit if this was a cunning ploy to try increase the M&S brand awarness to put M&S on a level with Harrods? or some real fancy uperclass supermarket (not any in my neck of woods) and they underestimated the antis support. It wouldn't surprise me either, but until it is proven as such then it's just opinion...again. I find it ironic that you set much in store for your own opinions but disregard those of Packham and Avery. Isn't it their opinion that driven grouse shooting is cruel? Hasn't it been proved that some keepers have been guilty of killing raptors, or actively engaged in the persecution of such? Who can blame them for forming such opinions, when based on fact?

 

Just as an side previosly i mentioned its due the the click and slide culture and most folk won't know wot there liking, u gave the 80K or the 110K that signed the petion quite a lot of credit. If they really believe in there cause where have they been the previous 3 years when avery had the exact same petion running but never got aything like this support?? ​I have no idea; have you?

The vast mahority of folk aren't overly bothered but at same time don't really know much about it so lies and mis truths are easily accepted and passedfor fact. Indeed, as are opinions, on both sides of the story.

Even many shooters won't know that much about grouse moor management and how it all works and numbers involved They don't need to know. I don't need to go onto the moors to know that some keepers have in the past ( and possibly still are ) engaged in the persecution of raptors, and neither do the general public. I've never been to the moon, bit I know quite a bit about it.

 

I'm not sticking up for M&S by any means, I just simply don't like it when conclusions are jumped to. Like I've already said M&S may well have bottled it, we may never know,and even if it were true, who would really be responsible for that situation; the situation the owners and keepers of driven grouse moors now find themselves in? Or shooting sports in general for that matter? Be honest.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Scully

[Adge Cutler]

Couple of points

 

1. The RSPB couldn't support the Hen Harrier project on active Grouse Moors because the bird itself is in decline, being on the amber list status. It would have been seen to supporting shooting of a declining species to preserve another.

 

2. M&S will only put on their shelves what people want to buy. I looked for some grouse in Waitrose a couple of weeks back couldn't find any..asked the duty manager why they didn't have any..."because there's no demand for it and we end up chucking it away." nothing more sinister than that