HSE

[dad]

i run a small business and recently had a visit from the hse for no reason just checking around. they asked me to put a dust extracter on a small jig saw that i have had for 30 years and a test certificate for the small compressor that runs it. they then sent me a bill for £129 for the paper work in volved, evedently you have to pay now for people un invited coming in to your work place and finding a contravention. the extracter cost £300 the compresser cert. another £450 we are moving in 6 weeks and i e.mailed hse for an extension so we didnt have to get it done twice they e.mailed back ok and charged £77 for the e.mail. that cant be right can it !!!

[robbiep]

If you'd gotten in a professional H+S consultant to advise where you were not complying with the law, the bill for such advise would have been considerably higher.

 

Or maybe you'd have preferred it if HSE just issued immediate prohibitions on work until all items rectified, and prosecuted you in a courtroom for your breaches of the law ?

[fitz]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/og/ogprocedures/inspection/inspection-procedure.pdf

 

And here;

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fee-for-intervention/what-is-ffi.htm

 

So in short, yes it look like they can charge you for their inspection if they find issues

[oowee]

Its pretty harsh but i guess its better than being in contravention and having an accident at some point.

[sitsinhedges]

It's all about the HSE being self funding rather than safety. It's just another way of the government squeezing some more money out of you to pay the wages of public servants who are of questionable value in reality. I wonder how each one of them would like it if someone could come into their workplace and relieve them of their wages for spurious reasons.

[robbiep]

It's all about the HSE being self funding rather than safety. It's just another way of the government squeezing some more money out of you to pay the wages of public servants who are of questionable value in reality. I wonder how each one of them would like it if someone could come into their workplace and relieve them of their wages for spurious reasons. and make their bosses require with Health and Safety requirements that have been around for decades.

 

Fixed that typo for you.

[oowee]

I think these things should be self funding.

[kyska]

 

Fixed that typo for you.

I'm with you on this, comply and you'll be sound, the law is the law, regardless of how many think health and safety is a pile.

 

The pain of a RIDDOR accident investigation is bad enough even if you are compliant.

[browning123]

Prior to retiring I was employed as a Group Site Director, The HSE once visited one of my companies smaller plants which was based seven miles from the Main factory.

 

This visit resulted in a cost to the company of £18,000 for a new dust extraction sett up, and a notice being served on myself to ensure the new unit was installed within 6 weeks.

 

The work was duly completed in the stated time frame.

Edited July 28, 2016 by browning123

[CharlieT]

Just as an aside,

I found a couple of them in one of my sheds some years ago. One sitting in one of my tractors and he other rummaging around.

After a heated conversation, Mr HSE sitting in the now running tractor informed me that the hand brake didn't work. I told him he was talking out of his rear end and climbed into the cab for him to demonstrate this apparent horrendous crime, only to find him yanking the p.t.o. lever up and down.

 

I chucked them off the farm with a flea in their ear.

[sitsinhedges]

 

Fixed that typo for you.

 

Thanks but no thanks. I've seen them come on site too many times using trivial infractions to relieve companies of there hard earned money. They generally know all of the theory but none of the realities of running a business safely. That'll be £155 please, where shall I send the bill?

[team tractor]

My friend works for the highways . Every hole they dig has to have a full risk assessment filled out and takes 10 mins plus 10 pages of paper. They can dig 60 holes a day .

 

 

If my lads don't wear a mask I can get in trouble but if I demand they wear them , im a bully.

 

Hse has replaced common sense

[Harry136]

Has anyone ever heard of them just tipping up at a clay pigeon site?

[fitz]

Unfortunately as mentioned above, HSE has replaced common sense. I run a factory with 50 staff. We pay for external H&S support to ensure we're doing the best we can by my employees. I work on the basis that I have to sleep soundly at night and use the external company to help us find solutions to some challenging H&S requirements. Safety of the staff is paramount, but there is still a job to be done.

 

When I had the family business, we didn't have the financial ability to pay for external support, and had to use common sense to ensure everything was as good as it could be. HSE doesn't discriminate, if you are a small business with 5 employees they will visit and measure you in the same manner as a company who has millions of pounds in turn over. A lot of smaller businesses could use the help of the HSE but not the cost of the visit and documentation.

[robbiep]

 

Thanks but no thanks. I've seen them come on site too many times using trivial infractions to relieve companies of there hard earned money. They generally know all of the theory but none of the realities of running a business safely. That'll be £155 please, where shall I send the bill?

 

The HSE documentation is quite clear that a FFI invoice will only be issued if there has been a clear breach of the law that requires an intervention.

that's why it is called 'Fee For Intervention'. Their invoicing makes it very clear exactly what intervention was required, and the parts of the law involved.

 

Maybe you'd prefer if they just forced a complete shutdown until all H+S was up to date ?

 

 

My friend works for the highways . Every hole they dig has to have a full risk assessment filled out and takes 10 mins plus 10 pages of paper. They can dig 60 holes a day .

 

 

If my lads don't wear a mask I can get in trouble but if I demand they wear them , im a bully.

 

Hse has replaced common sense

 

 

Make it clear that if they don't comply with the law then everyone's job is at risk, you are not prepared for that to happen, so those not willing to comply will be dismissed.

Then make sure you follow through with the threat if need be. Otherwise it's pointless.

[Savhmr]

 

The HSE documentation is quite clear that a FFI invoice will only be issued if there has been a clear breach of the law that requires an intervention.

that's why it is called 'Fee For Intervention'. Their invoicing makes it very clear exactly what intervention was required, and the parts of the law involved.

 

Maybe you'd prefer if they just forced a complete shutdown until all H+S was up to date ?

 

 

 

 

Make it clear that if they don't comply with the law then everyone's job is at risk, you are not prepared for that to happen, so those not willing to comply will be dismissed.

Then make sure you follow through with the threat if need be. Otherwise it's pointless.

 

Spot on Robbiep.

 

I've been on sites where I have unfortunately witnessed the aftermath of gross H&S breaches by people who couldn't be bothered to risk assess work, and cut corners. Risk assessment is NOT about filling in forms, it's about those doing the work assessing the hazards and risks, and ensuring that methods of working are chosen to eliminate or control those risks to an acceptable standard. Tool box talks and simply recording what was discussed is about as basic as it gets and is acceptable. Those running businesses (myself included) have a moral responsibility to ensure that they are aware of the laws and regulations applying to the work that they do, otherwise they stand a high risk, if targeted with random inspections, of having and HSE intervention and corresponding fees charged. More importantly, ignorance of the legal requirements run a risk that contraventions could lead to unacceptable risks for those affected in the workplace.

 

Everybody has the right to go to work and come home safe at night from accident, injury or disease. It beggars belief that there's even any debate about this in today's society. I have a brother who's suffered chronic asthma and other illnesses contracted at a factory where he worked. They produced cart parts and used compounds containing nasties like isocyanates and failed to provide adequate ventilation for the workforce resulting in many developing respiratory problems. They eventually had an enforcement notice served on them but not before the damage was done. The shocking thing was that they knew the score all along but refused to pay the money and sort it out.

 

There's a fair few very useful courses being run (anyone can do them) but some of the better ones are run by the National Examination Board in occupational Safety and Health (NEBOSH), an independent organisation founded in 1979. As a small business, you can send someone from your business, or better still, attend yourself and sit the course for managers, and you wont need to then spend loads on independent consultants except for specialist knowledge areas, as the NEBOSH exam is recognised as allowing a standard of knowledge and awareness sufficient to manage safety and health in the workplace, wherever that may be.

 

H&S management is not always easy, practical or straightforward and we all recognise that. Working for more practical solutions where none currently exist is a positive step in the right direction, but many still treat this aspect of work as a bolt-on or a "nice to have". It's neither. When building a business or running one, H&S management and compliance is an integral and essential part of your work commitments and expenditure and should be planned for in that respect. Ignorance of the requirements or a refusal to accept them is likely to result in enforcement action down the ine or in someone being hurt. As for Charlie's example above, the HSE then were clearly out of order. They were themselves committing clear breaches of safety by even being on a tractor! There's numpties in all walks of life but you did the right thing by slinging them off in that instance Charlie and I''d have done the same.

[dad]

i dont have a problem with hse compliance at all i welcome safety at work, it was the £77 bill for replying to an e.mail i sent to them. does each hse officer have to generate a certain amount of income each month to justify his salary. will the local council soon be able to charge us for correspondence or if the police pay you a visit will they charge, the list goes on, is it not in the interest of self funded departments to make more money to employ more staff to pay higher saleries and pensions.will they make more rules so they can get a contiual supply of contraveners. i have to have fire extinguishers they have to be checked yearly every year i have to change something and get a bill for £300 or some where near or insurance wont be valid, surely we can make fire extinguishers that last.

[fitz]

The fee is probably there as a deterrent for business owners, ensuring H&S is not slack on their premises, and to ensure the changes happen fast.

 

The £77 email would stick in everyones throat I bet, but without wanting to be rude - if your machines were in a fit state of repair, there would have been no costs to yourself at all. Chase the problem back to the beginning.

[dad]

i actually thought charlie was very brave they could come back with a vengeance and go through with a fine tooth comb for revenge i bet there is not a farm yard or small business in this country that an inspector coudnt find fault with, i dont know any small farms or small businesses that can afford to bring in h&s companys

[robbiep]

Regards to your fire extinguishers : Yes, they have to be checked every year. In addition, once they go past (I think) 10 years old they have to be replaced.

 

As to making them last' several years between inspections, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Most extinguishers have a CO2 cylinder inside them (yes, very similar to the ones on air pistols, etc), and the annual check is to confirm that the contents of that cylinder (which act as a propellant for the fire extinguisher contents), have not leaked out, or otherwise been disturbed, and a visual inspection that the cylinder itself is in good condition and not going rusty (think ... rusty pressurised cylinder / bomb / shrapnel, much like an airgun charging dive-type cylinder)

 

As to your £77 email bill, can we assume from your initial post that started this thread that it was in reference to your initial failure to have adequate dust extraction and the pressurised cylinder on the compressor (see earlier comment regards shrapnel) ?

 

I'll put it another way : why the hell should other, lawfully run businesses and the general taxpaying public fund YOUR failures to comply with H+S law that has been in place for decades ? HSE want to bill you for your incompetence, good on them.

[rodp]

I had them in twenty years ago, some woman with a chip on her shoulder. She went round with a fine tooth comb and came up with a list. Can't remember them all now but she stood there, pulled herself up to her full 5' 3" and stated, "lathe has no guard, miller has no guard, vertical bandsaw has no guard, etc etc." I said "correct" and she went red in the face, then purple It was then I told her that Only I use the machinery, no staff are allowed to and I don't use them for business purposes, purely personal. Stroppy *** threw the papers on the floor and stropped out the unit

 

Don't know if the same rules apply now ?

[fitz]

I'm not sure if they do. We had a bandsaw at our old work place, and only a family member was allowed to use it. One of the staff knowing they were not allowed to use it, proceeded to do so and lost the end of a finger. He got a few grand in compensation from the insurance company even though he wasn't allowed to use said machine.

[rodp]

These were personal items, bought by me, as are the one's I have now (not booked to the company). Maybe that's the difference ?

[fitz]

I'm not sure. It might be worth checking. There could be an assumption that as the items are stored in a work place they are still a risk and need assessing. Do you have signs up near all the machinery to state who is trained to use them?

[robbiep]

If they are in a work place, powered up, and accessible to people working there, then they will definitely come under HSE legislation.

The only way to avoid such would be to have the machines physically 'locked-off' and no employees have access to the keys, or in a locked room to which no employees have no access (i.e. the door is kept locked at all times, and, again, no employees have access to the keys).