HSE

[rodp]

If they are in a work place, powered up, and accessible to people working there, then they will definitely come under HSE legislation.

The only way to avoid such would be to have the machines physically 'locked-off' and no employees have access to the keys, or in a locked room to which no employees have no access (i.e. the door is kept locked at all times, and, again, no employees have access to the keys).

They weren't twenty years ago, all wired in and ready to go. No difference between having a machine wired in and an untrained person using it, they're not locked away from the bloke that sweeps up or drives the forklift ?

[scotslad]

A lot of the HSE stuff just goes way to far and a lot a the folk that choose to enforce it are .. well not folk u'd really like to share a pint with (or atleast in my experience).

No one wants to work in an unsafe environment but we're hardly sending schollboys up chimneys or under weaving machines anymore.

Just went far too far in the last 20 yrs

 

 

I have worked in some fairly heavily safety concious places (gas pipelines and railways) and some of their safety practices are absolutely shocking yet they insist u tick all these pointless boxes.They usually pick and choose wot rules they follow when it suits them and ignore them when it doesn't.

 

Tried to kick me of pipelines a few times but they usually get sick off it and leave me to it, eventually, althou not been back on them for a while as last 1 sickened me.

Tried to insist i wore a boiler suit (sleves rolled down at all times) gloves and googles at all times, i was on the saw felling and climbing i knew more about chainsaw safe working practices than they did.

Yet they allowed boys to feed chippers and work within the safety zone of cutters with absolutley no protection, was absolutely crazy

 

Another tme on railways the FF found our squad and sent me back to the van as i had 1 tiny piece of wire broke in my mesh visor (althou no rules saying u have to actually have it down to cut as can obstruct vison) argued so he stuck his pen throu it, luckily we had spares in the van.

The following wknd he watched us coup/roll a chipper twice and flip the bogeys once trying to get it onto bogeys that were not rated for the wieght or joined properly but he never said a word as there was no other easy way to get the work done.

Not big fans of them 1 bit.

 

 

Even in forestry trying to outlaw cuts i use most often, and the cut ur meant to do is actually less safe than the outlawed cut (on leaning, heavily wieghted to 1 side trees) but looks nicer and foresters are now coming out to inspect ur stumps, i have to tidy them up after.

Wouldn't mind if these boys had actually done the job and knew the score

[CaptainBeaky]

(Removed by Snip-o-matic)

 

Even in forestry trying to outlaw cuts i use most often, and the cut ur meant to do is actually less safe than the outlawed cut (on leaning, heavily wieghted to 1 side trees) but looks nicer and foresters are now coming out to inspect ur stumps, i have to tidy them up after.

Wouldn't mind if these boys had actually done the job and knew the score

Off topic, but interested - what cut do you use in this situation, and which one are you *supposed* to use?

[team tractor]

Regards to your fire extinguishers : Yes, they have to be checked every year. In addition, once they go past (I think) 10 years old they have to be replaced.

 

As to making them last' several years between inspections, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Most extinguishers have a CO2 cylinder inside them (yes, very similar to the ones on air pistols, etc), and the annual check is to confirm that the contents of that cylinder (which act as a propellant for the fire extinguisher contents), have not leaked out, or otherwise been disturbed, and a visual inspection that the cylinder itself is in good condition and not going rusty (think ... rusty pressurised cylinder / bomb / shrapnel, much like an airgun charging dive-type cylinder)

 

As to your £77 email bill, can we assume from your initial post that started this thread that it was in reference to your initial failure to have adequate dust extraction and the pressurised cylinder on the compressor (see earlier comment regards shrapnel) ?

 

I'll put it another way : why the hell should other, lawfully run businesses and the general taxpaying public fund YOUR failures to comply with H+S law that has been in place for decades ? HSE want to bill you for your incompetence, good on them.

This is proof you don't have your own small business .

I know where the op is coming from but you can't obviously .

Edited July 29, 2016 by team tractor

[CharlieT]

This is proof you don't have your own small business .

I know where the op is coming from but you can't obviously .

 

The problem is that publically funded bodies have no comprehension of time, money and suffer from a complete lack of common sense.

[robbiep]

This is proof you don't have your own small business .

I know where the op is coming from but you can't obviously .

Try again.

 

I run my own construction company. Have done since 2001, when I finished with a regional housebuilder as a site foreman.

 

Also have a 'normal' job too, and a very good relationship with local HSE.

Edited July 29, 2016 by robbiep

[bostonmick]

the hse and others should never be self financing,there is not one business in this country that works 100% within their ever changing rules.nomatter how small the short cut is everyone makes one at some time.

[team tractor]

Try again.

 

I run my own construction company. Have done since 2001, when I finished with a regional housebuilder as a site foreman.

 

Also have a 'normal' job too, and a very good relationship with local HSE.

Staff?

I guess everyone is sub contract?

Do you have a workshop?

Offer pensions ?

Why have two jobs if you run your own business?

Edited July 29, 2016 by team tractor

[robbiep]

Staff?

I guess everyone is sub contract?

Do you have a workshop?

Offer pensions ?

Why have two jobs if you run your own business?

Only staff are myself and Mrs P

 

Yes, all others are sub-contract. However, I'm still completely responsible for their H+S on any of my projects. Risk assessments, inspections, toolbox talks, etc all falls on my shoulders. I'm the person listed on the HSE F10 forms.

 

Pensions : could you possibly explain to me what on earth that has to do with Health and Safety ? I guess I'll be waiting a long while for any relevant reply.

 

As to why do I have a normal job too, quite simply I only take on a few jobs - normally a couple of new builds or extensions a year, and they don't require micro-management. As such, if I didn't have something regular to go out to work for, I'd get bored out of my mind.

 

I'm NEBOSH qualified, scaffold inspector qualified, CSCS management cards, the lot. I've managed sites of 100 houses (in phases, when I was still working for a regional housebuilder), and I've managed little £10k jobs.

For me, it's not about money - I suppose I'm very lucky in that regard. It's about enjoying what I do

[team tractor]

Only staff are myself and Mrs P

 

Yes, all others are sub-contract. However, I'm still completely responsible for their H+S on any of my projects. Risk assessments, inspections, toolbox talks, etc all falls on my shoulders. I'm the person listed on the HSE F10 forms.

 

Pensions : could you possibly explain to me what on earth that has to do with Health and Safety ? I guess I'll be waiting a long while for any relevant reply.

 

As to why do I have a normal job too, quite simply I only take on a few jobs - normally a couple of new builds or extensions a year, and they don't require micro-management. As such, if I didn't have something regular to go out to work for, I'd get bored out of my mind.

 

I'm NEBOSH qualified, scaffold inspector qualified, CSCS management cards, the lot. I've managed sites of 100 houses (in phases, when I was still working for a regional housebuilder), and I've managed little £10k jobs.

For me, it's not about money - I suppose I'm very lucky in that regard. It's about enjoying what I do

Pensions was mentioned as an over head of having staff . It's hard employing staff and paying pensions, holidays, N I , extra insurance for staff. It's hard keeping up and paying everything.

If you don't employ staff your experiencing no where near the health and safety we go through.

Most businesses now only subcontract to avoid the hassle as its down to them .

 

Being booked up until Xmas and working 10-16 hour days I've no chance of being bored.

Currently their is 5 of us on the books and 4-5 sub contractors at the minute.

I'm also qualified cscs card and advanced joinery to the highest I can achieve . Even after all the paperwork I can't keep up with H&S changing the specs on my machines.

 

Common sense is more important

Edited July 29, 2016 by team tractor

[Savhmr]

I don't see what direct employment of staff has to do with anything, as sub contract or direct employment, the obligations are exactly the same for anyone working in your business or affected by what you do. I have managed very large staff teams on multi-million pound schemes previously but am now only responsible for myself, sub contractors and visitors. It makes my obligations no less onerous.

 

CSCS certification is really only the most basic confirmation that a person has had the correct training for the job that they are carrying out. If employing people, the minimum someone running a business ought to ensure is that they or someone appointed by them is to have the NEBOSH general certificate for managers. It doesn't cost the earth to do but does require a few months commitment to learn the stuff needed, and it gives you the knowledge and confidence to deal with the HSE and that you are providing the most appropriate level of welfare and safety management for your staff. CSCS doesn't allow for that as that is not really what it is intended for nor does it teach you anything much about the rafts of legislation that need to be complied with. It is a basic safety card to say that you've had the training to be on a site or within a business doing what you do personally, or where you may have responsibilities for a few others as say a foreman.

 

Attitudes are, thankfully, changing but it's worth saying again that if running your own business, H&S management is an essential part, integral to that business and not a "nice to have". There's plenty of test cases where following serious accidents, fatalities and illnesses, the business owner has pleaded that they can't afford the training or to have someone advise them. In each and every case, their business has been shut down (prohibition notice) or served with an improvement notice until such time as they have the means to operate safely and to provide the minimum legal requirements. I know it's not easy and involves cost and time, but having first hand experience of site fatalities, illnesses and accidents, I am firmly in the camp that says EVERYONE has the right to go home safe and sound at the end of a day's labour. Anything else is just exploitation and unacceptable.

[CharlieT]

Savhmr

 

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with your statement "everyone has a right to go home safe and sound at the end of the day", he rest of your post shows scant knowledge or appreciation of the pressures of time and money on small businesses. Very many small businesses, such as mine, simply so not have the money or man hours available to follow the path you suggest.

Like many,I'm lucky, having worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, if I can show a profit and pay myself l living wage.

 

How on earth am I, and the many small businesses like mine, coupled with all the rest of the legislation and rules I'm supposed to keep up with, find the time and money to employ professionals or gain qualifications in blessed H & S. It is just impossible and to read posts (good chap that you are), like the one above, shows a complete lack of understanding of the pressures small business employers are under.

[Yellow Bear]

A further point re CSCS and site safety - as a contractor I constantly had battles with main contractor safety officers. Part of my training was an iosh qualification and platinum CSCS yet still had to sit through 2 hour site safety briefings given by unqualified junior building "engineers" who often gave erroneous information and got stroppy when picked up, to the extent of stopping site access on one occasion until I "pulled rank" and went over his head to the site manager (who had specifically requested my presence). Until someone sorts the safety "industry" out there will continue to be problems both ways.

[robbiep]

A further point re CSCS and site safety - as a contractor I constantly had battles with main contractor safety officers. Part of my training was an iosh qualification and platinum CSCS yet still had to sit through 2 hour site safety briefings given by unqualified junior building "engineers" who often gave erroneous information and got stroppy when picked up, to the extent of stopping site access on one occasion until I "pulled rank" and went over his head to the site manager (who had specifically requested my presence). Until someone sorts the safety "industry" out there will continue to be problems both ways.

That's absolutely nothing to do with HSE though. And if an unqualified person is giving safety briefings, toolbox talks, etc. then that is the problem for the principal contractor to sort out.

[Savhmr]

Savhmr

 

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with your statement "everyone has a right to go home safe and sound at the end of the day", he rest of your post shows scant knowledge or appreciation of the pressures of time and money on small businesses. Very many small businesses, such as mine, simply so not have the money or man hours available to follow the path you suggest.

Like many,I'm lucky, having worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, if I can show a profit and pay myself l living wage.

 

How on earth am I, and the many small businesses like mine, coupled with all the rest of the legislation and rules I'm supposed to keep up with, find the time and money to employ professionals or gain qualifications in blessed H & S. It is just impossible and to read posts (good chap that you are), like the one above, shows a complete lack of understanding of the pressures small business employers are under.

 

I fully appreciate that as I run a small business too Charlie. The clear advantage I suppose that I have is that when employed by others, I was put through NEBOSH, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're willing to put the time and effort in it is doable (I had to do the day job, working weekends and evenings on training for NEBOSH, and ended up taking a week off for the intensive course prior to the exams). I appreciate it isn't easy or always possible and I don't have scant regard for anything. I still work damned hard to keep my own business afloat so know what hard graft it can be

[Yellow Bear]

That's absolutely nothing to do with HSE though. And if an unqualified person is giving safety briefings, toolbox talks, etc. then that is the problem for the principal contractor to sort out.

Ah - but it should be as it has a high impact on safety, particularly when it was always the principal contractors doing it.

[Savhmr]

I think there's often a mis-use of wording here.

 

The key word used when describing personnel with responsibilities for safety management or when describing the standard for a specific task to be undertaken is "competence".

 

Competence is a mix of experience and knowledge. It doesn't matter if someone giving a toolbox talk isn't formally qualified providing that they have adequate training and experience.

 

Whilst it's not all about qualifications, the higher your responsibilities or the more specialised, then the more likely it is for competence to require formal training and qualification in addition to experience.

 

The truth is that no one person knows it all or can be expected to lead (ie dictate how stuff is accomplished) alone. Good managers will rely on the input of their experienced and knowledgeable staff who ought to be doing a bulk of the RA on site, at the office or in the workshop/factory floor, or out in the field as it is they who are responsible for undertaking the work. Often, H&S management is just making sure that activities involving risk are properly managed and undertaken, with proper assessment and control measures recorded and in place.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Savhmr