Side by side day

[dougall]

Checkering quality on the boxlock is not of a very high quality + having no makers name would suggest a mass made Birmingham gun such as were supplied to hundreds of gunshops who would then stamp their own name on it. Not worth a fraction of the Sidelock I would say and suggest around £500 when you can buy a nice English gun such as an Osbourne for the same money.

if you can find some osbornes in that 'appears unfired condition' for £500 buy them.....a decent Scott 700/701/702 is pushing and past £2000 in such condition...whilst the name Maleham means nought to me, it would appear quirky and quite rare and no doubt appeals to Manchester folk,and if it is effectively a Scott underneath all mounts up to a rather nice boxlock to my eye...i would also be wary of a decent Birmingham made boxlock ejector at @ £500 these days too.....

[dougall]

bit more info;according to Nigel Brown British gunmakers Birmingham and regions vol 2; Maleham was bought by Arthur Turner of Sheffield in 1910. unfortunately all records/books were lost in dec 1940 due to German bombing..intriguingly it would appear that any serial no starting with the same 2 numbers meant the gun was a pair so your 22...implies there may well be a paired gun out there somewhere...the serial number does not compute with it being a Scott made gun of that period,if it was farmed out for manufacture then brought back in house for finishing the serial number is within the right sphere for it to possibly to have been made by Thomas Wild(Birmingham)....with the records gone though it is unlikely to ever be truly known(thanks Adolf)...probably Birmingham made/possibly Sheffield.Chares Henry Maleham died 1935 operated out of 5 West Bar Sheffieled 1873-1910 but also had London premises 1878-1914.Arthur Turner kept the Sheffield address/offices until 1920 so gun could have been finished under the Maleham name in Sheffield at any time up until 1920.

[bruno22rf]

Dougall - the Boxlock is un named as I remarked in my post and no reference whatsoever was made to it being by Maleham - the OP also remarked that it shows signs of being fired! A Scott may well sell for your suggested price but this boxlock is not by them so why the comparison? BTW - who said it was an ejector?

Edited August 22, 2016 by bruno22rf

[buze]

Thanks @dougall, @fortune, @wymberley, @bruno22rf and I might miss some from the other page.

 

I had the guy at Emmet&Stone in bourne end have a look at them; the 'Walker' seems to him to be a Scott 700 or so, badged as such, he confirms it's very likely 'brand new' as there's no sign of wear at all; he also told me it's pointless to clean it, as it's... clean! just a bit of brushing/greasing and rodding and it's as good as new. He suggested perhaps have the wood cleaned separately to bring the grain out, but otherwise I was told 'go and shoot it!' :-) He told me 'insurance value: LOADS as it'd take £10k to have a 'new' one.' but resale value not so much, as it's a semi-ejector.

 

The Maleham definitely needs a 'deep' cleaning. Not a servicing per-se, but the ejectors etc are seized, I'm a bit suspicious as some of the deposit on it is more like hard wax then grease. He was very impressed with it, as he has other sidelocks in his shop, none are in such good condition not have such a fine wood. He also mentions easily >£5k on the market. I left him the gun to be professionally cleaned, 2 to 3 weeks turnaround it seems... He thinks the action might have been lapped back to metal, possibly to remove rust long in the past.

 

Anyway, thanks to everyone who contributes, it's really nice of you all.

[buze]

Some pics of the Walker post-cleaning. I passed some naphta on the action, nylon brush to clean any residue, and then passed an oily rag to protect it.

 

 

 

[Goldfish]

Absolutely beautiful !

[McSpredder]

Re the Edwin Walker boxlock, the hinge pin arrangement looks rather different from the W&S 700 series, though it could still have been made by Scott.

 

Gunman may be able to comment, as I have a feeling he was at one time involved in making W&S guns, as well as repairing them. (Apologies if I have got the wrong person).

 

The chequering is perhaps not particularly fine, but a lot of work has gone into engraving the trigger guard, and I suspect this was not a particularly cheap gun when new.

 

People certainly do not like paying big money for a BLNE, but it will kill as well as any sidelock ejector, and can give just as much pleasure to the owner, especially when it is a family heirloom. Also, there is much less to go wrong.

 

Presumably Edwin Walker would have been the retailer. It is not a very old gun, so it is quite likely that somebody in the gun trade around Sheffield will have knowledge of the firm.

[buze]

Edwin Walker was my wife's grandfather -- definitely not a retailer, he was a still an industrialist who owned several steel business around Sheffield, and he was also an all around 'geek' -- as we call them today -- He took 3D photographs, had all the cool gizmos of the days, cool cars etc. Unfortunately pretty much everything was sold/given away when the family downsized after his passing. I wish I had met him, as I'm sure we'd have gone on like a house on fire.

[dougall]

a semi ejector...must remember that one!..anyhow a cracking condition boxlock...who cares if it has lifters..in that nick it is worth a bit...indeed Bruno at a push may give you a couple hundred quid if interested...Nigel Brown knows a bit about guns and his view is Scotts are hugely underrated gunmakers,primarily because they made quite a few...

Dougall - the Boxlock is un named as I remarked in my post and no reference whatsoever was made to it being by Maleham - the OP also remarked that it shows signs of being fired! A Scott may well sell for your suggested price but this boxlock is not by them so why the comparison? BTW - who said it was an ejector?

oops.......

[McSpredder]

Edwin Walker was my wife's grandfather -- definitely not a retailer

That is really interesting. It is quite common to see ribs engraved with "Made specially for xxxxxx", but usually it is the name of a retailer, who may have been one of the smaller gunmaking or gunsmithing firms, or just a local ironmonger.

 

You have what is in effect a brand new gun, with a name of a relative engraved on it, and knowledge of its provenance. Members of your family will hopefully still be enjoying use of this gun 100 years from now, and every pigeon killed (clay or feathered) will bring added pleasure because the shooter knows the gun's history.

[buze]

That is really interesting. It is quite common to see ribs engraved with "Made specially for xxxxxx", but usually it is the name of a retailer, who may have been one of the smaller gunmaking or gunsmithing firms, or just a local ironmonger.

 

You have what is in effect a brand new gun, with a name of a relative engraved on it, and knowledge of its provenance. Members of your family will hopefully still be enjoying use of this gun 100 years from now, and every pigeon killed (clay or feathered) will bring added pleasure because the shooter knows the gun's history.

 

Well yes, and it fits my wife /perfectly/ too, just the rigth size. We've compared it with her current over and under, and it's the same pull; it's like it had been made for her! So it's going to be shot as soon as this week-end with her 21g's CompX!

 

I talked to father in law about the Walker, he is quite sure he hasn't been fired ever, as far as he's aware -- he went with grandfather to pick it up so knows exactly what happened. So perhaps it had been shot at the maker's ?

[triumphant59]

Any chance of pictures of the boxlock proof marks?

[bruno22rf]

oops--? Explain?

[dougall]

Dougall - the Boxlock is un named as I remarked in my post and no reference whatsoever was made to it being by Maleham - the OP also remarked that it shows signs of being fired! A Scott may well sell for your suggested price but this boxlock is not by them so why the comparison? BTW - who said it was an ejector?

''a scott may well sell for your suggested price but this boxlock is not by them so why the comparison''

......as the OP has now taken the gun to a gunshop who say it looks like a brand new W&S 700 and is badged as such......I'm guessing it might be a Scott as I conjectured in an earlier post. I have just been trying to assist the OP. you have stated on this thread so far CH Maleham name started in 1910 when actually that was the date he retired and sold out to Turners,you knocked the chequering and the gun because it looked like it may have been fired(shock horror a gun is shot) when it looks a very well put together boxlock in fab condition and your value of £500 would have been accurate in about 1985. Obviously neither of us have seen the gun in the flesh and have both tried to help the OP. Having owned/shot Scotts/Powells/Boswells et al I know a little about Birmingham made guns and thus put some comment up. My oops was slightly tongue in cheek and I apologise if you found it a bit near the bone. I guess it is up to the OP to decide whose comments have been most helpful on this thread.

[buze]

Well everyone has been very informative, and without resorting to biting each other's nose, which is quite unusual on this forum I have to say -- so thanks to everyone really! I'll take pics of the proof mark's on the Walker when I get it out of the cabinet again -- it'll be shot this week-end! And I'll report as soon as I get the Maleham back from the cleaning...

Father in law told me he has some papers that might be of interest too, not sure when they'll land in my pile but I'll report if I find anything of note!

[bruno22rf]

No apology needed whatsoever Dougall - if we cannot enjoy a debate concerning a common interest then what is the point?. Now lets see if I can explain a couple of points.

1/ At no point did I say that Maleham ceased trading in 1910 - the NAME as CHARLES H MALEHAM was used up until 1910 ( company was known as such since 1873)- after this it was CH MALHAM & CO despite being run by Arthur Turner until, I think 1920 when Turner started using his own name. It would seem to me that the label on the box would indicate pre 1910.

2/ The Boxlock has NO indication of being built by W&S - to the best of my knowledge all such guns by this maker ,and built to their standards, are relatively easy to spot - I would ask that the owner provides a picture of any such markings - the word "badged" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Edited August 23, 2016 by bruno22rf

[DanWalker]

Webley & Scott made a huge number of guns for lots of different makers as well as their own production. I have a Trulock & Harriss that is a Webley & Scott A&W model boxlock.

A lot of the pre-War William Evans guns are Webley and Scott built.

That said neither of these guns quite rings true for me as a W&S. It is worth searching the barrels around the fore end loop for a serial number that doesn't match the gun's or for a maker's mark.

There's a copy of the 1914 W&S catalogue available online to compare against here

Edited August 23, 2016 by DanWalker

[fortune]

I can't really see why this thread has gone the way it has. All that matters is that the two guns are very nice and as they have been given as heirlooms they ain't for sale so they only need a value for insurance purposes. Both guns are very well made with well struck off barrels. The 21 grm load should shoot very nicely in that boxlock. It's a bit of a shame that these guns have lane dormant for so many years without being used for the job that they were intended for.best wishes to the new owners and may they give you many years of service and pleasure.

[DanWalker]

I can't really see why this thread has gone the way it has. All that matters is that the two guns are very nice and as they have been given as heirlooms they ain't for sale so they only need a value for insurance purposes. Both guns are very well made with well struck off barrels.

 

 

I was merely trying to add a bit of info to the identity of the guns - I think that's half the fun of old English-made guns, as they can have a very complicated backstory with the name on the gun (especially in the case of the boxlock) having very little to do with the actual manufacturer.

[kevin55]

I've found it interesting, especially as I'm currently looking at a no-name English boxlock and wondering how I will tell who the maker was

 

K

[buze]

Chaps, I think everyone was very nice, we can all slap ourselves on the back on this one; we did have a bit of opinionated discussion as befell people who are technical and care about their stuff...

 

Overall, I think that beside having had the privilege of originating it, this is one of the best threads on PW that I've read so far, I'm amazed at the data that everyone has been pouring in, and yes I also thank the couple of 'doubter' posts that forces everyone to reset their compass and make sure we don't go overboard the other way..

 

Yes, both my wife and I are beyond delighted to have landed these, and we'll be using these as often as we can! I know there's a bit of temptation to say 'oh, it's pristine, lets keep it pristine' but my philosophy is that you use it, and then you die anyway. I'm for using it, taking great care of it, and then it gets passed on with a bit more history attached to it.

[McSpredder]

Great to hear that those two guns are going to be kept in the family, and used.

 

I inherited a Gallyon side-by-side, and treasure that gun because it belonged to my father. I was with him when he bought it from Gallyon's shop in Cambridge, and still have the receipt (£50 in 1961, for a fairly plain BLNE with only some border engraving, when it was already about 40 years old, but had had just been re-barrelled). I don't know who actually manufactured it, and suspect that the plainer guns sold by Gallyon were probably just bought in from the Birmingham trade. An economist might say it was a poor investment, because it certainly has not kept pace with inflation.

 

But I don't care a jot about how much it might fetch if sold, and for me the value lies in family memories. I am sure lots of other PW members could say the same about guns that have been inherited.

 

Maleham guns are not especially rare, and I wonder whether their owners ever have a get-together at a shooting ground somewhere. I have certainly read that there is an owners' club for Perrins guns, which also welcomes folk with other makes of vintage guns, and it occurs to me that Worcester (whence Perrins originated) is mid-way between the OP's locations of Powys + Berks. Maybe some PW members know more about it?

[bruno22rf]

I don't understand the problem with this thread going the way that it has? At no point has anybody been disrespectful or petty and I cannot see why we should not discuss our opinions about these Guns - surely the point of a forum? As far as I am concerned they are both v.nice pieces and ,no doubt, will be treasured by their new owner - for my part I am simply trying to work out their history using the little knowledge that I have in such matters. Happy to apologise if I have spoiled the thread in any way for the OP .

[wymberley]

One point that I don't think anyone is going to disagree with and that is by the look of it, Buze married well.

[kevin55]

Great to hear that those two guns are going to be kept in the family, and used.

 

I inherited a Gallyon side-by-side, and treasure that gun because it belonged to my father. I was with him when he bought it from Gallyon's shop in Cambridge, and still have the receipt (£50 in 1961, for a fairly plain BLNE with only some border engraving, when it was already about 40 years old, but had had just been re-barrelled). I don't know who actually manufactured it, and suspect that the plainer guns sold by Gallyon were probably just bought in from the Birmingham trade. An economist might say it was a poor investment, because it certainly has not kept pace with inflation.

 

But I don't care a jot about how much it might fetch if sold, and for me the value lies in family memories. I am sure lots of other PW members could say the same about guns that have been inherited.

 

Maleham guns are not especially rare, and I wonder whether their owners ever have a get-together at a shooting ground somewhere. I have certainly read that there is an owners' club for Perrins guns, which also welcomes folk with other makes of vintage guns, and it occurs to me that Worcester (whence Perrins originated) is mid-way between the OP's locations of Powys + Berks. Maybe some PW members know more about it?

 

 

I've seen a group at AGL (Atkin Grang & Lang near J9, M1) who shoot with Greeners and another group who shoot with hammer guns

K