16ga / 32g Load: Column Height / Crimp Height

[neutron619]

Hello Chaps.

 

I'm just playing around with a slightly heavier-than-usual load for my 16 gauge - 32g/#5 instead of the ounce of #6 I usually use. Had quite a few long-range (40-50 paces) birds come down flapping on Saturday - more than I'd like, anyway - and whilst I'm sure that's nothing more than me not being on the bird properly, I thought I'd try moving up a shot size to see if it happens any less. As I said, I'm guessing not, but it's always nice to have a new reloading project to try.

 

Anyway - my question is, what column height or crimp height should I be aiming for for 32g of shot in a 16 gauge, 67mm case? I've currently got 1.45g of A0, followed by 3mm nitro, 13mm fibre wad and 2mm cork filler as my best guess, but I can't for the life of me get a good crimp out of it. I've added fillers, removed them, lowered the shot charge, but they're just not getting a nice rim on them like they usually do. Yes it's a Lee Load-All but I've had no trouble achieving decent crimps on the other loads I've created, albeit, sometimes with a washer.

 

Anyway - I'm aware that there are "good" column heights for certain shot charges - can anyone suggest what I should be aiming for, for the load described above?

 

Final thought: I am wondering if these cases - taken from factory loads - are now folded in one particular way which means I'm not going to be able to re-crimp them properly on another, different press?

 

Many thanks,

 

Adam.

Edited October 5, 2016 by neutron619

[Walker570]

Have you patterned the present cartridge at 40 or 45 yards to see what it is doing and also check out penetration at that range. As you say it might be operator error and your catching the edge of the pattern but if you have had a number consecutive it just might be the load AND the choking. I discovered a Lylevale fibre shot a far better pattern out of my 410 with about a half choke tube in than with a full choke. Until you put it on a sheet of paper you will never know. get a piece of old plywood and staple some paper on which will catch a 30 inch circle of shot as that is where you need to have the target. Then what I do to test penetration is soak some folded newsprint and fold it until you have a pad about 3/4 to an inch thick and about 12 inches by 6 inches. Staple this in the centre behind the main piece of paper. Then make an exact measurement of 40yrds with a tape ...amazing how you can be way out with estimations and strides. Then fire a shot at the centre of the board. Check how many pellets have grouped in that wet newsprint and see if they have fully penetrated. If they have not then, yes, you need to use a larger shot size. I would go from 6s to 4s as the difference between 6s and 5s is relatively small and the slightly large load will still more or less put the same amount of shot in the pattern. Most high pheasant shooters these days are using 4s. Repeat the above at 45 and 50yrds if you feel necessary.

It is most informative as to what a cartridge can do. I did this test on some 410 #6 ITX at 35yrds and the penetration was superb, right into the ply. It proved correct at the weekend when I shot three mallard out at 30yrds and they dropped stone dead and you could see the effect of the shot as it went through the bird.

 

On edit, what 16 are you shooting? I love the gauge and have a Remington 1100 in 16 which has put a lot of crows and pigeons on the deck in the last 30yrs.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Walker570

[neutron619]

Have you patterned the present cartridge at 40 or 45 yards to see what it is doing and also check out penetration at that range.

 

...

On edit, what 16 are you shooting? I love the gauge and have a Remington 1100 in 16 which has put a lot of crows and pigeons on the deck in the last 30yrs.

 

Yes - the abbreviation "CCPS" in my signature refers to the "Cambridgeshire Cardboard Perforation Society" :-)

 

The results of the pattern tests were that the full choke barrel produces an 81% pattern with the #6's at 40 yards (avg. 223 / 276 in the circle) and the half choke shoots 74%. I haven't tested it at 50 yards, but on those numbers I'd be expecting about 150-160 in the circle from the full choke barrel. It is not a fast load by any means, which goes some way to explaining the high pattern percentages, but it patterns well (and is completely useless inside 15 yards!).

 

I can't tell you what the penetration is like as I've never tested it, but of the 18 birds I downed on Saturday morning, 5 came down flapping. About twice that number dropped more feathers than I'd usually associate with a near-miss behind / pattern edge shot but carried on flying.

 

The significant evidence here, and the reason I want to try #5's in the 16ga is that when I ran out of ammo for my 16ga, I picked up my 12ga - loaded with 32g/#5's and 38g/#5's through a modified choke which manages 62-65%@40yd at best - and it stopped happening just like that. I'm afraid I don't believe fewer pellets in a slightly looser pattern is going to improve long range performance, so I'm inclined to attribute the increased success either to chance, or the increased shot size.

 

Don't get me wrong - I know one pellet will remove half of a pigeons feathers if it flies through them in a particular way and that the most likely explanation for all of this is simply missing, but I was in the form of my life last weekend - I've no idea why - and I honestly thought that at least some of the "feather explosions" and the associated "bounce" of the bird I was seeing was me being on the bird, but the bird being too far away for the shot to get through. My few years experience and the opinions of others I trust tells me that's b*ll*cks, but that's how it felt all the same.

 

The gun is a Baikal 16 gauge SxS - heavy, but points well. £140 on the off chance, but it turned out to fit like a glove and I shoot it more than anything else now.

 

As for testing being informative, certainly: I have a 28 gauge that shoots a 65% pattern through a "cylinder" choke

Edited October 5, 2016 by neutron619

[6.5x55SE]

Could it be you need to load 32gram in a 70mm case ??

As when many years ago i shot a 16ga i admit using Factory Cartridges the 1-1/8oz was loaded in 2-3/4" Cases eg Eley Alphamax and Remington

Edited October 5, 2016 by 6.5x55SE

[neutron619]

Could it be you need to load 32gram in a 70mm case ??

As when many years ago i shot a 16ga i admit using Factory Cartridges the 1-1/8oz was loaded in 2-3/4" Cases eg Eley Alphamax and Remington

 

Well - I ran out of time today but I will give that a try tomorrow - it's only a case or two wasted if I have to cut them open again. That said, if anything, I think the column wasn't high enough. I was just asking in the hope that someone might say "oh, I used X-size nitro card, Y-size wad and Z-millimetres of fillers" and I could copy that.

 

I do 3mm nitro + 20mm fibre wad in a 70mm case for the 1oz load and that crimps pretty well, though it sometimes needs a little help with a washer / the RTO tool.

 

Now, I can't account for powder density - I'm using A0 for the 1 1/8oz load rather than A1 for the 1oz and maybe that's the difference.

 

That said, if I've got 3mm nitro, 13mm fibre and 2mm filler, that's 18mm of height compared to 23mm in the other one. However, it's a 67mm case rather than 70mm (or really 66.5mm vs 69mm), so it needs to be at least 2.5mm shorter. That leaves me 2.5mm difference to accomodate 1/8oz extra shot, which sounds about right. Just not sure why it's not closing as neatly as I'd like.

 

I'll post a few pictures tomorrow. Maybe I just haven't got the feel of this one yet. A number to work to would be appreciated if anyone's got one, though.

 

Thanks.

[TONY R]

You could load a heavier charge in non tox wads use them as if they were old patterndriver wads pack them out with 20 bore nitro cards and a couple of cork fillers in the wad base, keep the packing of firm card not soft fibres or felt, this once its more than about 3 or 4 mm starts to raise pressures.

Was never a big fan of pattern drivers back in the day but not knowing how soft fibre wads raised pressures back then i supose i never gave them a realistic chance.

Using a steel wad as i sujest makes wad column adjustment straight foreward for whatever load you choose to load.

I would be looking at lil gun as my propelent if i were you. Good luck with your project keep us posted how you get on please.

[roughshooter]

A change of powder to a double based laminated powder will give you the height you need with your existing wad. you can load up to 36g in the 16

[rbrowning2]

Any help?

 

http://www.cortiniepezzotti.it/eng/pages/posts/star-crimp-roll-crimp-19.php

 

My take is that the crimp height remains unchanged and you adjust wad column height to obtain required crimp height for given case length and crimp style.

 

So for 67mm in 16ga top of shot is at 67mm less 10.5mm = 56.5mm to get good star crimp.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting, I look forward to more developments in the 16 Gauge wonder shell.

[neutron619]

Any help?

 

http://www.cortiniepezzotti.it/eng/pages/posts/star-crimp-roll-crimp-19.php

 

My take is that the crimp height remains unchanged and you adjust wad column height to obtain required crimp height for given case length and crimp style.

 

So for 67mm in 16ga top of shot is at 67mm less 10.5mm = 56.5mm to get good star crimp.

 

Thank you - just what I was looking for.

 

Have been out to the reloading room since and attempted some more loads. Played around again with fillers and wads. Ironically enough I've returned to the original recipe as that appears to be giving the best results.

 

I remain confused, however. I've checked both the charges and the shot being dropped by the press and they're consistent enough, but the crimps still remain somewhat variable. Certainly I expected the loads with fillers to crimp less tightly, but even over 10 shells where the recipe is the same, the results are rather variable. For instance - three of the same recipe next to a 12 gauge shell with what I'd call a good(ish) crimp.

 

 

The left-most shell is representative of the ones I was turning out after about 20 loads - they did settle down a bit, but the first box were all over the place. The middle 16 gauge shell is one I turned with the roll crimping tool - you can't easily see it but it's got a bulge around the crimp and another round the base and may not go in the gun. The right-most blue shell was again the same recipe but the crimp slopes into the shell rather than bulging slightly outward like the first shell.

 

Some of the shells not shown here actually have a diagonal crimp - i.e. turn the shell sideways and the top looks like a ski-slope. I took to turning the shell 120 degrees and pressing it again which helped even them out a bit, but I've not had trouble like this before.

 

I do wonder if these cases just aren't very good for reloading - my gut feeling says they're pretty thick and might need skiving, though the insides of the cases do show signs of that having been done - they are ex-factory-load cases after all.

 

Ah well - I'll be out on Saturday, hopefully with my newly acquired magnet, so maybe I'll get a shot or two at more than just cardboard to test them.

 

Dave - if you think another extraordinary general meeting of the CCPS is in order, you'd better inform the members!

[rbrowning2]

From the photo they are shouting use a spinner like the GAEP to finish the crimp it would make a big difference to their appearance and performance.

[Cyrus1988]

Are you weighing the cartridge after each drop of powder and shot to confirm it's actually dropping what it's meant to? The Lee is a good loader but I weigh every drop.

[neutron619]

Are you weighing the cartridge after each drop of powder and shot to confirm it's actually dropping what it's meant to? The Lee is a good loader but I weigh every drop.

 

Yes for the shot for each shell and as an average; no for the powder - but the latter is only because I've calibrated that bushing with that powder extensively in the past, so I know the range and standard deviation of the drops. Within 0.6 grains either way but usually within 0.3 grains, which is near enough for my purposes.

[wigeon jim]

I load a lot of 16g shells ,steel and lead but all with a flang disk and a RTO finish, much easier, Jim.

[mecman]

three different cases three different results is what i would expect. try to get a measurement of 10 ~11 mm from top of shot to top of case.

[neutron619]

Well - here's an update.

 

The shells patterned well - average of 75% through the full choke barrel with a range of 70%-82%, so pretty close to where I'd expect with that gun.

 

No problems with lethality / velocity either. I picked a sitting magpie off a distant branch with an aimed shot between 40-50 yards and it fell down flat, which - given that they're small birds - confirms the pattern is decent enough.

 

Recoil was also fine - even possibly on the light side for a 32g cartridge in a side-by-side.

 

The only two downsides on the day were my shooting and the state of the barrels after firing them.

 

My shooting was, frankly, awful - but that always happens when I'm testing a new shell or the time after I have a good day out (i.e. last week). You know - when you actually need to hit a few birds to a) know what the shell is doing and b) prove that when you shot 18 last week it wasn't a fluke... Still, I haven't learned not to put myself under pressure that way, so the weight of my own expectations stresses me out and then the first miss sends it all to sh*te. Therefore I don't have a lot of "real-world test" results to report for 20 cartridges shot. The ones I hit came down cleanly, put it that way.

 

The state of the barrels after shooting was variable, but much filthier than my usual 1oz cartridge that uses A1. I suspect that the shell could take a little more powder to up the pressure and increase the burn rate and that might clean it up, but I'm not sure about that yet. The Gualandi "winter" load will allow another 0.05g of powder, but I try not to load to maximum loads, even with fibre cartridges. The gun will take a lot more (it's a 3½" semi) but at this point, I think I'm not convinced enough to want to make the switch.

 

I'll load another 20 and see how I do next time. After that, I'm not keen, but I might try an ounce of #5 using the old A1 recipe as a compromise. Generally I'd say there weren't enough #5 pellets for a long range pattern in that quantity of shot, but I suppose it might be worth a try...

 

Thanks to you all for your comments / advice. Much appreciated.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Still trying to resolve the ability problem then?

 

More confidence needed Mate.

[rbrowning2]

If the barrels are very dirty and you are loading recommended dose of powder then the pressure is low due to poor crimp.

 

Upping the powder at this stage is not ideal you need to tighten the crimp to hold back the pressure for a fraction of a second longer to allow for an efficient burn of the powder.

 

Have you tried the washer trick with the lee loader to improve the crimp? Or invest in a spinner if not.

 

Rb.

Edited October 10, 2016 by rbrowning2

[neutron619]

Have you tried the washer trick with the lee loader to improve the crimp? Or invest in a spinner if not.

 

Looking like a spinner is in order at some point, I'd think. Can't seem to get the washer trick to work on the 16 gauge press, though I have no trouble with the 12... Weird.

More confidence needed Mate.

 

Yep, but I've no idea where to get it from. Know anyone who sells it bottled?

 

Funny - I thought I'd found some (again) after doing so well 10 days ago, but it's always the same pattern: one good day followed by three or four where I miss almost everything, then one good day, and so on...