Shell Size in the .410

[neutron619]

Thought I'd put this question to the PW Massif since I don't have enough experience with .410 to make a judgement or the equipment with which to experiment to determine the answer (or a good picture of what might be significant).

There are - so far as I can tell - two schools of thought regarding how to get the best patterns out of a .410 as far as cartridge length goes.

Let's say one has a .410 with a 3" chamber and has the choice between using

• a 16g load of #7 in a 3" case, and
• a 14g load of #7 in a 2½" case.

These two loads are reasonably similar, but I'll start by stating the obvious conclusion of which I'm already aware: the heavier load is going to have a higher number of pellets, so logically, if all other factors are equal, it should throw denser patterns.

However, I read in many places that because of the peculiarities of the .410 (with which, I reiterate, I'm not familiar), things are not always quite as clear cut.

For example, I've seen claims that:

 

A 2½" shell will usually throw a better pattern than a 3" shell, even when the 3" shell has a heavier load because fewer pellets getting deformed as the wad squashes them from behind when the cartridge is fired.

 

Evidence for this conclusion seems hard to come by, though it is apparently to do with having less space for powder and so having to use a smaller volume of faster powder to accelerate the shot charge. This seems to imply a harder "shove" behind the wad.

 

On the other hand, I've also seen it claimed that:

 

A 2½" shell - particularly one with a fibre wad - will throw an inferior pattern in a 3" chamber because of the long distance the wad has to "jump" between the end of the shell and the start of the barrel, where the diameter is chamber size, not bore size. This jump can allow combustion gas past the wad, damaging it and fusing the shot together. The wad can also be damaged as it enters the barrel from the chamber.

 

I'm assuming that this account refers to a gun with no forcing cone, as opposed to a gradual decrease from chamber to barrel size.

 

I've read in the past, on this forum, various people asserting that:

 

You may as well just use a 2½" shell - you lose as many pellets from the consequences of a long shot column as you gain from the extra weight of shot.

 

I've also heard them say:

 

The .410 is so incapable already past 15 yards that any extra pellets are better than no extra pellets. Never shoot anything less than a 3" shell if you can.

 

Now - obviously the answer here is for me to go and buy a selection of cartridges, a gun to fire them with and to spend a weekend shooting at cardboard to see if I can spot any statistically significant patterns in the pattern plates I produce. I'm sure, shooting anorak as I am, that that would be a perfectly enjoyable thing to do.

However, in the absence of the resources to do that experiment, can any of the .410 re-loaders here recount their experiences as far as the shell length question goes, or - even better - provide any real-world data that might give me a handle on whether it's

a) just a question of pellet count - the more the better, or
b) just as peculiar as I've heard - fewer pellets sometimes deliver better patterns in the .410?

With thanks in advance for any insights you can offer.

Adam.

 

PS - Just so we stay on topic, I'm aware that there are also two schools of thought about whether a .410 should be tightly choked or not, and I'm not looking to stray onto that subject, unless it's somehow relevant to chamber length in a way I haven't yet understood...

Edited November 7, 2016 by neutron619

[Walker570]

Right .... Firstly choking in my experience does have a significant effect on patterns and can also include cartridge choice, so it can get complicated. My Hilditz 30 inch barrels shoot my home load ITX #6s 3 inch into some excellent patterns with great penetration at 35yrds. Now on one shoot I go to I have to use fibre wads and I discovered the Lylevale Fibre 3 inch were all over the place out of the full choke #I tubes and settled own with the #II tubes in to just acceptable patterns AND seem to kill just as consistently. I choose to shoot Fiocchi #8s 3 inch where plastic wads are allowed. They are about #7s English. I have also had good results with RC #6s (UK 5s) in full choke application and with the #II tubes in. I am shooting the Fiocchi #8s this weekend with the #IIs fitted and will see what the results are. As I said it gets complicated and the only way you can answer your question is to go shoot some cardboard or better still a steel plate that you can paint over and use again. I pattern at 35yrds and my best patterns have been 30 inches and penetration which is equally if not more important is excellent passing through a good 3/4 inch of soaked packed newsprint and then burying into hard ply backing to the depth of the pellet. At the end of the day the trick is putting that bird in the middle of that 30 inch circle ... 20 inches at 20yrds!!

3 inch are available then why not shoot them. Any argument then why don't 12 gauge shooters shoot 2 inch shells ?

[neutron619]

Right .... Firstly choking in my experience does have a significant effect on patterns and can also include cartridge choice, so it can get complicated. My Hilditz 30 inch barrels shoot my home load ITX #6s 3 inch into some excellent patterns with great penetration at 35yrds. Now on one shoot I go to I have to use fibre wads and I discovered the Lylevale Fibre 3 inch were all over the place out of the full choke #I tubes and settled own with the #II tubes in to just acceptable patterns AND seem to kill just as consistently. I choose to shoot Fiocchi #8s 3 inch where plastic wads are allowed. They are about #7s English. I have also had good results with RC #6s (UK 5s) in full choke application and with the #II tubes in. I am shooting the Fiocchi #8s this weekend with the #IIs fitted and will see what the results are. As I said it gets complicated and the only way you can answer your question is to go shoot some cardboard or better still a steel plate that you can paint over and use again. I pattern at 35yrds and my best patterns have been 30 inches and penetration which is equally if not more important is excellent passing through a good 3/4 inch of soaked packed newsprint and then burying into hard ply backing to the depth of the pellet. At the end of the day the trick is putting that bird in the middle of that 30 inch circle ... 20 inches at 20yrds!!

3 inch are available then why not shoot them. Any argument then why don't 12 gauge shooters shoot 2 inch shells ?

 

Hi Walker570,

 

Thanks for your reply which I've read with interest.

 

In case I wasn't clear above, I wasn't saying that I thought choking was unimportant to pattern quality - I'm well aware that it is. I was just trying to pre-empt any discussion of choke and keep it strictly on the question of shell size and it's relationship to chamber size, which is the variable I'm interested in understanding. Choke is of course one of a large number of other variables about which I feel I have a better understanding. Your comments on the Lyalvale 3" cartridges do however support some of the things I've read about less being more in terms of .410 choking, so another confirmation of that is useful to hear.

 

As I said, I would like to go and shoot some patterns and experiment, but lack of money and time prevent that so I have to settle for opinion and theory.

 

In response to your comment about 2" shells, I take your point, but the counter-question is why don't 12 gauge shooters use 3" or 3½" shells all the time? I'm not looking to start an argument or trying to offend, but a gun's capability to shoot a larger shell than the one you choose doesn't necessarily mean that the smaller shell is wrong. I suppose that brings me full circle - it's that question in the context of the .410 about which I'm trying to gain some insight.

 

Adam.

Edited November 7, 2016 by neutron619

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Slow day at work N619?

[neutron619]

Slow day at work N619?

 

*Hat tip*

 

I believe it was.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Lazy sod, I was out beating at Burghley!

[Guest cookoff013]

not being a .410 er at all. but from what i have learned with the 12gauge, whatever you do aim at the 1100fps or slower. seems to make decent patterns, the less powder to do this the better....

these patterns are good, but also have a slightly difference response to choking... being that they produce decent patterns, with most chokes.

 

saying that the .410 is "marginally" *cough* different to the 12.

[222mark]

I've tried every possible permutation in .410, from 3/4 ounce 3" shells to the tiny 2" and every thing in between. Home loaded and factory loads. Always returned to the 1/2 ounce 21/2" winchester cased ones. Why? because they kill the best. Its not always what looks good on a sheet of paper,its what does the job. Also i find 81/2 thou of choke plenty for every situation.

[motty]

Neutron, what is your intended target?

I have recently picked up some Fiocchi 18gm 9 (2.1mm). These for me are an ideal size for pigeons through the .410 - lots of pellets to get the job done.

[Stonepark]

I have found that with 410 (or any bore really but 410 seems to amplify any discrepancy), the following is what I go with: -

 

Higher Pressure = worse patterns - due to more damage to pellets in shot column in conjunction with;

 

Less cushioning by wad = worse patterns due to more damage to pellets due to pressure spike

 

Soft lead = worse patterns - due to more distorted pellets from physical factors

 

Shorter unpolished Forcing Cones = worse patterns due to pellet damage;

 

End of chamber gap = worse patterns due to expansion and then squeezing due to forcing cone and gas mixing/powder especially with fibre;

 

Tight short Chokes = worse patterns as pellets are damaged and shot column has no chance to settle before exit barrel.

 

Winchester AA does well due to hard shot and plastic wad.

 

High Velocity does not in itself cause worse patterns but is often associated with poor patterns.

 

Shot welding is caused by pressure and soft lead, not escaping/burning powder.

 

Range of 410, depends on the loading (pellet size and number), please note ranges are approximate;

 

9g of No9 can kill small game (pigeons) to 22.5 yards and that is 2 inch

14g of 8 can kill small game and medium game (pheasants and rabbits) to 27.5 yards in 2 1/2 inch

19g of 7 1/2 can kill small and medium game to 35 yards in 3 inch

21g Loading of No7 can kill medium game to 37.5 yards in 3 inch

21g loading of No4 can kill large game (geese) to 40 yards in 3 inch

 

Choke wise. my gun (with Briley chokes or OEM chokes) starts to spray (choke causing more random fliers or damaged pellets) above 15 thou constriction with fibre wad cartridges (.395).

Edited November 7, 2016 by Stonepark

[neutron619]

Cookoff, Stonepark - thank you as always for your insights which I appreciate hearing. Numbers and statistics are duly recorded and added to the morass of information I'm currently attempting to sift through to work out a mental model of what might be going on inside that little chamber.

 

Neutron, what is your intended target?

I have recently picked up some Fiocchi 18gm 9 (2.1mm). These for me are an ideal size for pigeons through the .410 - lots of pellets to get the job done.

 

Presently, none, as both money and time to spend on shooting .410 are non-existent, though I retain the idea of a Yildiz SxS as a project to work towards one day. I expect it would then get taken out for decoying / rough shooting in place of a 28 gauge gun I currently have and use with varying degrees of success. That is, assuming my shooting habits haven't changed substantially by the time I can afford it, which may be some years...

 

I've never used that particular Fiocchi cartridge which sounds like it could be very good for short-range decoying, though I did use the Fiocchi 19g/#7½ (Italian) load in a single barrel Baikal I owned for a few months a few years ago and it certainly didn't struggle to break the clays. I never actually fired it at birds as I wasn't confident with the gun (and the fit was appalling), which was one of the reasons it didn't stay in the cabinet very long, but the cartridge patterned pretty well, especially since I thought it the gun was over-choked and blew the patterns of Eley Extralong cartridges all over the place.

 

I've tried every possible permutation in .410, from 3/4 ounce 3" shells to the tiny 2" and every thing in between. Home loaded and factory loads. Always returned to the 1/2 ounce 21/2" winchester cased ones. Why? because they kill the best. Its not always what looks good on a sheet of paper,its what does the job. Also i find 81/2 thou of choke plenty for every situation.

 

Now this is the first bit of experience that backs up the 2½" shell argument - interesting. I take your point entirely - no point having a beautiful pattern if it doesn't mean a bird ends up on the floor, though good shooting is usually missing factor in my case, rather than cartridge or gun! I assume the Winchester cartridge use plastic wads, which seems to be the way forward in the .410 from what you chaps and the rest of the internet are saying.

 

Let me add a bit more background to the thread, which might shed some light on why I'm asking this kind of question.

 

I'm very interested in and have recently become very aware of why we choose to use this gauge or that cartridge in an historic context. I realize that cartridge development still goes on, that new powder compositions and geometries will continue to be invented and that cartridges will gradually be made more capable (though I imagine we're much closer to the physical limits than, say, in 1933 when the 3" .410 round was invented).

 

I'm not a hugely experienced shooter, but I find it interesting and significant, for example, that although there has been a move towards faster, lighter loads in this country, the vast majority of our ancestors, as well as the rest of the world today, consider a 1 1/8oz or 1 1/4oz load to be the best all-round weight of shot for the 12 gauge in a hunting / game shooting situation. Of course, individuals have their preferences, but that "average" if you like, is indicative of what's likely to work pretty well in a 12 gauge and that's a valuable piece of knowledge in my book. It represents millions of hunters firing billions of shells and all coming up with roughly the same answer. If we ask the same question of the 16 gauge, we get the answer "1oz"; for the 20 gauge, "7/8oz" and for the 28 gauge "3/4oz".

 

The .410 is where things get interesting. The 2" cartridge didn't exist by itself for very long at all - you just couldn't fit enough shot in it to make it particularly useful and the 2½" shell (with 3/8oz or 1/2oz shot) soon turned up to improve the situation. That lasted for a bit, but then the 3" shell (with 3/4oz shot) turns up in the '30s and muddies the waters. It's very hard to answer the question "what is the traditional .410 load?" because unlike the other gauges, there are lots of possible answers.

 

Is it a 1/2oz load in a 2½" case? That would be a compromise choice between the old 2½" load (that just didn't have enough shot to be truly effective) and the newer 3" load (which won't fit older guns), but without stuffing so much into the case that we see the negative effects Stonepark describes?

 

Or is it the case that - unlike the 12 gauge, where the capacity of the gun has moved on to offer the use of 3"/3½" shells but the cartridges themselves haven't followed for most shooters - the nature of the .410 makes the "magnum" loading the go-to shell and anything less is rendered obsolete? Certainly that seems to be the case on the evidence available.

 

I posed a thought experiment in the post that started this topic and perhaps there isn't space to put a cigarette paper between the two cartridges I described, in practical terms at least. That said, is there any point in taking a .410 to the field with a 16g or 19g load that you could shoot more effectively out of, say, a 28 gauge, for which it's historically appropriate? If you're going to buy the tiny 4lb gun, isn't shooting a light cartridge with it more sensible? Or does the long-standing availability of 2" and 2½" cartridges simply cater to old examples of guns in a gauge where, if we can shoot a "magnum" load, we really can't do without it?

 

Those are the kinds of things I'm considering. Thank you again to all of you for the responses which are helping me paint the mental picture of the .410 and its character which I'm currently developing.

 

Adam.

Edited November 7, 2016 by neutron619

[Walker570]

Having a good pattern is of no use if you don't have penetration. Velocity helps but hard shot is a factor here in my view combined with pellet weight obviously. That is why I was a little amazed at the penetration I got with the ITX non toxic which equalled if not beat some of the lead of the same size. The shot buried in the plywood backing when dug out showed very little if any distortion. The few ducks I have hit with this ITX have folded dramatically, including one teal snap shot at around 40yrds. I'm looking to load some of my own fibre wadded loads because I am not certain of the performance of the Lylevale fibre although I like their fibre in 16 gauge very much ... might be me not the cartridge.

Since going over to shooting 410s for most of my shooting, I have found there is more active discussion about the cartridge between enthusiast than any other. Great to hear and read findings from other shooters.

[Stonepark]

The .410 is where things get interesting. The 2" cartridge didn't exist by itself for very long at all - you just couldn't fit enough shot in it to make it particularly useful and the 2½" shell (with 3/8oz or 1/2oz shot) soon turned up to improve the situation. That lasted for a bit, but then the 3" shell (with 3/4oz shot) turns up in the '30s and muddies the waters. It's very hard to answer the question "what is the traditional .410 load?" because unlike the other gauges, there are lots of possible answers.

 

Is it a 1/2oz load in a 2½" case? That would be a compromise choice between the old 2½" load (that just didn't have enough shot to be truly effective) and the newer 3" load (which won't fit older guns), but without stuffing so much into the case that we see the negative effects Stonepark describes?

 

Or is it the case that - unlike the 12 gauge, where the capacity of the gun has moved on to offer the use of 3"/3½" shells but the cartridges themselves haven't followed for most shooters - the nature of the .410 makes the "magnum" loading the go-to shell and anything less is rendered obsolete? Certainly that seems to be the case on the evidence available.

 

I posed a thought experiment in the post that started this topic and perhaps there isn't space to put a cigarette paper between the two cartridges I described, in practical terms at least. That said, is there any point in taking a .410 to the field with a 16g or 19g load that you could shoot more effectively out of, say, a 28 gauge, for which it's historically appropriate? If you're going to buy the tiny 4lb gun, isn't shooting a light cartridge with it more sensible? Or does the long-standing availability of 2" and 2½" cartridges simply cater to old examples of guns in a gauge where, if we can shoot a "magnum" load, we really can't do without it?

 

Those are the kinds of things I'm considering. Thank you again to all of you for the responses which are helping me paint the mental picture of the .410 and its character which I'm currently developing.

 

Adam.

 

 

I think the 410 (like most bores/gauges) has been affected by 'mission creep', the original 2 inch was a step up from 9m floberts and with small shot (No9 to No12) allowed the control of small pests such as rats, sparrows, starlings etc at short range and enclosed spaces. The 2 1/2 came along when rabbit and other close in vermin shooting etc was tasked as 2 inch did not have a lot of space for shot. The 3 inch is the natural progression into an effective small to medium game cartridge.

 

Similarly the 12bore started off at 2 inch (3/4 or 7/8 ounce), moved to 2 1/2, then 2 3/4 and then 3 inch, only going to 3 1/2inch when lead was banned and more volume was needed for steel shot to be effective. At each stage, volume increase gave a wider range of scenarios gun could be used, relegating other bores into obsolescence.

 

Would a 28g with 3/4oz give better patterns than a 410... probably as works at slightly lower pressure, hence less damaged pellets, more tolerance for small discrepancies in loadings, physical factors are a smaller in relation to other influences etc. However 410 is versatile downwards (still can get 2 and 2 1/2 cartridges) and top end meets light 12 bore (21g 7.1/2 fibre clay cartridges), so it fills a complementary role, whereas both 28g and 20g now overlap with 12 bore common loadings, and it is the physical aspects a of lighter gun which I believe appeals to a lot of people as 12 bore weight has moved from 6lbs to 6 1/2lbs to 8lbs. A modern 28 bore is weight wise like shooting a 2 inch 12 bore of yesteryear, and I suspect the 12bore would give better patterns than the 28b for similar reasons of the 28b over the 410.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Some very interesting points made within this thread.

 

The biggest problem you will come up against when looking to make a .410" shotgun usable on live targets is the dimension of the pellet column.

 

Too long and too narrow.

 

As noted above, the correct length of cartridge for the chamber, smooth forcing cones and good long chokes will help, as will plastic wads and hard shot.

 

An interesting read, but the 28 bore is king in your cabinet Mate and you already have a cracking load for that.

[Old farrier]

Few more variables to consider

 

Just to make it harder

Type of case

Plastic

Paper

Brass

Ohh and crimp type

 

 

Sorry to mess with your maths

 

All the best

Of

[neutron619]

Thank you all again for your comments which have again been interesting to read.

@Old farrier:
Don't worry about messing with the maths - I'm not trying to calculate anything here, but just to get a picture of one point of interest. I take your point however - there are probably even more factors in the complete list.

@Stonepark:
I should have known (but I didn't) that the Flobert came first. That helps explain the origins of the 2" case which I've always been slightly confused about. I still to this day don't understand why, if you've got a case that small, you'd fill it with #6 shot (e.g. Eley, Lyalvale, Gamebore) where #9 or smaller would be far more appropriate, as you've indicated. (I'm sure that #9 at 20 yards will kill a rat just as well as #6, for instance.) It does however make a lot more sense if you look at the cartridge as an improvement on the Flobert round, rather than as a stand-alone design - otherwise, I'd have thought almost any of us (and any sensible gunsmith) would have said "nope, can't get enough shot in that - make it 2½ inches" (or 3").

The biggest problem you will come up against when looking to make a .410" shotgun usable on live targets is the dimension of the pellet column.

Too long and too narrow.

As noted above, the correct length of cartridge for the chamber, smooth forcing cones and good long chokes will help, as will plastic wads and hard shot.

Ok, so what we all seem to be settling on, by one route or another, is that, faced with the choice I posited in my first post, the imaginary 16g cartridge I described is the one to go for. In fact, I copied the numbers from the Gamebore catalogue, but regardless, it seems to be the most appropriate because:

• It has a 3" case which is appropriate to the chamber of the imaginary gun.
• It is a light 3" load - compared, say, to the Winchester 21g or Fiocchi 19g loads.

With this imaginary cartridge, we're gaining the benefit of the cartridge matching the size of the chamber, so we should avoid things like wad damage or propellant gas escaping past the shot column. However, we're actually aiming for the lightest feasible load that we can put in the 3" case to keep the shot column as short as possible and avoid all of the ill effects associated with that. I imagine too that this will leave plenty of space for some high-volume, smooth-burning, single-base powder that will more gently accelerate the shot column, rather than relying on a double-base powder that explodes underneath and "shoves" the column much more suddenly, compressing the pellets.

 

An interesting read, but the 28 bore is king in your cabinet Mate and you already have a cracking load for that.

Did you mean "16 bore" by any chance? Though I've had some good days with the 28ga recently as well. Not lots of birds, but some good shots. I'm still trying not to get over-excited about shooting them when they appear 100 yards away and turn at 50...

 

As a final thought, I've been wondering if anyone knows whether the old fourten.org.uk website is still maintained? Certainly it's needed bringing into the modern era in terms of style / design for a number of years now, but it was still updated reasonably regularly for quite a long while. That seems to have tailed off in the last year or two. Does anyone know who owns it? Or whether they'd be interested in getting some people together to give it a facelift? We clearly have plenty of experts here and I'm sure that more than one of us must be a software engineer with a tendency to take on big projects just for fun... Just a thought.

 

Thank you all again for your input. I'm very happy to continue this further if others have more to add.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes I do, well spotted Pike!

 

16 Bore is king in your cabinet!!!!!

[Walker570]

I have to also go along with the 16 gauge as the most pleasant and effective shotgun for game bird shooting. I could never understand why the 12 became more or less the standard but I do remember reading an article as to why this was so.

 

I do enjoy the challenge of shooting the 410 and now you can have interchangeable chokes fitted, that has made a huge difference to how the gauge performs. The advent of all 410 driven days shows how many others are finding that this little cartridge will perform at sensible ranges. I am met with the same comment on occasions, "Oh, all you do is have pricked birds", well I retort, I wonder how many pricked birds fly on, on those crazy 70 -80yrd high pheasant days being fired upon by super dooper magnum canon shells. From what I have seen they don't have a very high shot to bird rate.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Walker570

[neutron619]

I have to also go along with the 16 gauge as the most pleasant and effective shotgun for game bird shooting. I could never understand why the 12 became more or less the standard but I do remember reading an article as to why this was so.

 

I do enjoy the challenge of shooting the 410 and now you can have interchangeable chokes fitted, that has made a huge difference to how the gauge performs. The advent of all 410 driven days shows how many others are finding that this little cartridge will perform at sensible ranges. I am met with the same comment on occasions, "Oh, all you do is have pricked birds", well I retort, I wonder how many pricked birds fly on, on those crazy 70 -80yrd high pheasant days being fired upon by super dooper magnum canon shells. From what I have seen they don't have a very high shot to bird rate.

 

I agree on both points. I keep reading every now and again that the 16 gauge is a "snobs" gauge for people who think they're better than everyone else (i.e 12 gauge users). I think that's a nonsense - either you're a snob or not and that's not down to which tool you've picked to do the job - but I will admit to being very fond of my cheap, old, slightly battered Baikal (£140) with which I now shoot some very good birds (when I'm on form!) and for which, as TIGHTCHOKE implies, I have a very good home loaded cartridge.

 

As for the high bird days, they're well out of my experience, but I have read articles suggesting that a 1-to-10 ratio of birds to cartridges is often considered a "good" standard. As many folk who know me will tell you, I'm not a particularly good shot and I have bad days like the rest of us, but if I was only managing to bring home one bird for every 10 shots (and paying for the privilege, no less) I'd be packing it in and taking up crochet. (By myself I tend to vary between 1-for-2 and 1-for-4, depending on what time the kids have woken me up that morning. When I visit TIGHTCHOKE that drops significantly because he's intimidatingly good and I lack the confidence to shoot well in his company!)

Edited November 8, 2016 by neutron619

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On the continent the 16 bore is the gun of choice, over here it is the 12 followed by the 20, strange how we differ.

[222mark]

Read " climbing the north face of the .410" tim woodhouses book neutron. its the .410 bible.

[Walker570]

Must look that one up on Abe books. I enjoy shooting anything with a stock and forend but must admit the last two seasons and a bit of pigeon and crow shooting with the 410 has been most enjoyable. Just booked another 120 bird day with a team of 410ers for pheasant and partridge. Had a gun walk up to me week last Saturday and comment "That little gun doesn't miss much does it" note!!! 'the little gun' not me.

 

 

OUCH!!! £30 FOR A SOFT COVER SECOND HAND VERSION. NOPE

Edited November 8, 2016 by Walker570

[wymberley]

Must look that one up on Abe books. I enjoy shooting anything with a stock and forend but must admit the last two seasons and a bit of pigeon and crow shooting with the 410 has been most enjoyable. Just booked another 120 bird day with a team of 410ers for pheasant and partridge. Had a gun walk up to me week last Saturday and comment "That little gun doesn't miss much does it" note!!! 'the little gun' not me.

 

 

OUCH!!! £30 FOR A SOFT COVER SECOND HAND VERSION. NOPE

A well known RFD that has several outlets - one of which is in Newport - has some new (albeit stocks are limited) copies available at £8.32

[Walker570]

Thanks I will have a look see.

 

Ordered ...many thanks.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Walker570

[wymberley]

Pleasure, pleased i could help.