winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Morning all. I bought a Renault kangoo 57reg diesel a few weeks back and a few days ago it wouldn't start. I bought it privately off a chap who an electrician I know said was selling it and knows himself through work. I've just gone self employed (carpenter) and needed something to keep me going til I can get something a bit better and bigger. I had a mobile mechanic coneto look at it yesterday morning and he brought some glow plugs with him as he said it might be those. Unfortunately with the process of elimination he ruled them out, the fuel pump and came to the conclusion it's the injectors. The mechanic got a price for injectors and with labour it would be £800. I paid £1200 for the van so I'm not sure what to do as the mechanic said he personally wouldn't bother as the injectors would be 80-90% chance of a fix as it could lead to another problem? I can't afford another van as of yet. Would be grateful for your opinions? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) Do you know this mechanic? did he plug van into a computer for diagnostics? if so what fault codes,are you saying by elimination he has replaced all the parts listed? If it was a total wont start then glow plugs are a reasonable start but did he check then for function before replacement, Relay?? will it run at all even on easy start? normally when an injector goes down you can still get em to run rough. My view from here is , get it mended , get it working and get earning as its worth ****** all as it is and earning nowt, take comfort from knowing that its got new bits on it. This is the lottery of buying used they can be cheap to buy but dear to run. As an aside im in the market for a small van like this, 450 down and 130 a month get you a brand new one( plus vat,) so 540 and 160 a month all in. Edited May 6, 2017 by Rupert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 No I got his number through a good mates sisters boyfriend who runs a motor parts shop. I usually use a good old mechanic who's only down the road from me but only works mondays and Tuesdays. I called him a few times but no answer so I went to this chap as I needed to know. I'm going to call my one on Monday though. He didn't plug it in but he did use easy start and it started but then kept cutting out. He asked me to turn the ignition and I saw him doing something where I presume it was Diesel that spurted out. After that he said it's not the fuel pump. Then he said it was the injectors. I've got no knowledge on motors at all. Yes getting a van that way was my other option but I was told I need some trading history before getting a fiancé deal. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) All modern motors can be very difficult to diagnose what the real problem is. Sometimes injectors go down and the system detects the fault and the electrics cause a system shut down. This can be detected by testing the amount of leak off coming out of each individual injector by removing the rubber leak off pipe from the injectors and putting longer individual pipes into a container to collect the diesel. You can then find out if there is a different amount of diesel coming from one or more of them. It's all blooming expence that you don't need. Where are you? PS sometimes faults like this don't always show up under fault codes, or you get lots of fault codes that although shown are not real faults and are being affected by the fact that the problem that you do have is affecting other things causing phantom faults. It might be worthwhile looking at the fuel filter because if it is partially clagged it can cause system shut down. Removal of the injectors and putting them back on the pipes Will show if they are injecting BUT BEWARE Of THE HIGH PRESSURE SPRAY from the injectors because it can go through your skin. Edited May 6, 2017 by fortune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 That's all beyond my knowledge fortune haha. I'm in Kent. Through your skin!!! Blimey. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) That's all beyond my knowledge fortune haha. I'm in Kent. Through your skin!!! Blimey. Cheers Whereabouts in Kent?The injectors injection pressure is thousands of psi and is dangerous if it is not understood and worked on correctly. Edited May 6, 2017 by fortune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Leybourne on the edge of west malling. I wouldn't dare touch it haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aga man Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) I would get a second opinion. I have run Renault kangoo's for 15 years and never had a problem with the injectors. Has your van got really high mileage? Edited May 6, 2017 by aga man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) Removal of diesel injectors and testing on the vehicle is something that's almost impossible to do. The high pressure pipes are made of metal, and are normally located directly above the injector. It would be extremely difficult and daft to attempt to bend these pipes into such a position where the injector could be reconnected to view its spray pattern. What you need to do is get the vehicle connected to a suitable diagnostic interface that's able to view live data. You need to verify that the fuel rail pressure during cranking is above the manufacturers specification for the vehicle to start. I personally only ever use easystart or similar as a diagnostic last resort. It can bend conrods and cause engine damage in no time, though moreso on petrol engines. When was the fuel filter last changed? When was the air filter not changed? What's the vehicle mileage? I wouldn't rule out a compression test either, or even a bad earth cable or starter motor. The fuel and air systems will need further investigation. If you take it to a garage with the proper diagnostic equipment (who know how to use it), you'll be in better hands than you are by asking on a forum. Faulty coolant temperature sensors can also prevent some engines from starting, but ideally you need the fault codes read. Edited May 6, 2017 by Cannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) I would get a second opinion. I have run Renault kangoo's for 15 years and never had a problem with the injectors. Has your van got really high mileage? 106000 mate and I'm definitely going to get a second opinion. Edited May 6, 2017 by winnie&bezza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aga man Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) 106000 mate and I'm definitely going to get a second opinion. That mileage is nothing for ones of these if it has been well looked after. Great little engines. Good luck with it. Edited May 6, 2017 by aga man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Removal of diesel injectors and testing on the vehicle is something that's almost impossible to do. The high pressure pipes are made of metal, and are normally located directly above the injector. It would be extremely difficult and daft to attempt to bend these pipes into such a position where the injector could be reconnected to view its spray pattern. What you need to do is get the vehicle connected to a suitable diagnostic interface that's able to view live data. You need to verify that the fuel rail pressure during cranking is above the manufacturers specification for the vehicle to start. I personally only ever use easystart or similar as a diagnostic last resort. It can bend conrods and cause engine damage in no time, though moreso on petrol engines. When was the fuel filter last changed? When was the air filter not changed? What's the vehicle mileage? I wouldn't rule out a compression test either, or even a bad earth cable or starter motor. The fuel and air systems will need further investigation. If you take it to a garage with the proper diagnostic equipment (who know how to use it), you'll be in better hands than you are by asking on a forum. Faulty coolant temperature sensors can also prevent some engines from starting, but ideally you need the fault codes read. Thanks for your advice. It all sounds expensive for a £1200 van? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 That mileage is nothing for ones of these if it has been well looked after. Great little engines. Good luck with it. It has been looked after and the chap MOT'd it and had a service done on it the day he brought it to me. The mechanic I mention said that the kangoo is basically a Mercedes? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-dot Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) Change the fuel filter as the bio fuel algae can stop the fuel entering the injection pump. Over pressure in the fuel line can cause a shut down of the system. It cant be all four injectors failing at the same time. Also blow back the supply pipe entering the fuel filter head unit as the in tank gauze filter gums up too. Edited May 6, 2017 by Red-dot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Change the fuel filter as the bio fuel algae can stop the fuel entering the injection pump. Over pressure in the fuel line can cause a shut down of the system. It cant be all four injectors failing at the same time. Also blow back the supply pipe entering the fuel filter head unit as the in tank gauze filter gums up too. There all things that's beyond me. Second opinion is needed. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-dot Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Really? Best get an honest mechanic then but for heavens sake don't let him know you couldn't put nuts in a monkeys mouth or you are in for a humping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Really? Best get an honest mechanic then but for heavens sake don't let him know you couldn't put nuts in a monkeys mouth or you are in for a humping! Yep, I've never done anything like that on a vehicle. Luckily with a twist of fate I bumped into the trusty mechanic I use in Tesco today. He said it doesn't sound like the injectors and will hopefully have a look at it next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshAndy Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Sorry to say I recently scrapped my 86,000 mile kangoo with the same issue. Diagnostics said number 3 injector, which I changed, then the diagnostics said fuel pump, changed that, then the diagnostic said it was a relay.... the list went on and on. Luckily the garage is owned by a very close family friend. Engine would turn over but never fire. Sorry - but if you Google the problem there are hundreds of people who have suffered the same 'injector' fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) If changing the injector for the same classification of injector doesn't fix the 'injector' problem, then the next logical step is to investigate the injector signals using an oscilloscope. This will determine whether or not there is an ECU or wiring issue. I've seen it time and time again where cars are deemed unfixable because the owner or garage doesnt know how to properly diagnose a fault. Everything I suggested in my previous post is quick and simple to do, but you really need a mechanic who knows what they're doing. It's worth mentioning that diagnostics don't tell you the fault. They are a starting point. Properly trained diag techs use their knowledge and skills to interpret and test components in order to find the fault. Edited May 6, 2017 by Cannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 oh mate! sorry to hear you're having grief already, it's not just me then. injectors can and do go wrong no matter what make the vehicle is. I've just had to replace my old combo van for a similar reason, I managed to get a couple of hundred for it as spares or repair but wish i'd gotten it fixed as I've now got to re rack out another van, that's the trouble with small vans though, we need to be a bit clever with the racking to get everything in. there are companies who advertise on ebay that replace/repair worn injectors for about £50 a piece, there's also something I saw recently on wheeler dealers where they run purified, positive charged fuel through the vehicle and it gives a thorough clean to the whole fuel and exhaust system, it was peanuts against changing injectors so might be worth looking in to. hope you manage to sort it all out, Paddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Sorry to say I recently scrapped my 86,000 mile kangoo with the same issue. Diagnostics said number 3 injector, which I changed, then the diagnostics said fuel pump, changed that, then the diagnostic said it was a relay.... the list went on and on. Luckily the garage is owned by a very close family friend. Engine would turn over but never fire. Sorry - but if you Google the problem there are hundreds of people who have suffered the same 'injector' fault. Oh dear. Well I'll see what the mechanic I know says. If it is injectors then I'll have to make a decision. I wouldn't spend anymore on it if there is further problems. Great! Sounds promising haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 If changing the injector for the same classification of injector doesn't fix the 'injector' problem, then the next logical step is to investigate the injector signals using an oscilloscope. This will determine whether or not there is an ECU or wiring issue. I've seen it time and time again where cars are deemed unfixable because the owner or garage doesnt know how to properly diagnose a fault. Everything I suggested in my previous post is quick and simple to do, but you really need a mechanic who knows what they're doing. It's worth mentioning that diagnostics don't tell you the fault. They are a starting point. Properly trained diag techs use their knowledge and skills to interpret and test components in order to find the fault. As you say, I need someone who knows what they are doing. All like a foreign language haha. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted May 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 oh mate! sorry to hear you're having grief already, it's not just me then. injectors can and do go wrong no matter what make the vehicle is. I've just had to replace my old combo van for a similar reason, I managed to get a couple of hundred for it as spares or repair but wish i'd gotten it fixed as I've now got to re rack out another van, that's the trouble with small vans though, we need to be a bit clever with the racking to get everything in. there are companies who advertise on ebay that replace/repair worn injectors for about £50 a piece, there's also something I saw recently on wheeler dealers where they run purified, positive charged fuel through the vehicle and it gives a thorough clean to the whole fuel and exhaust system, it was peanuts against changing injectors so might be worth looking in to. hope you manage to sort it all out, Paddy Cheers mate and no it's not just you! The first van I bought in 2009 was a ford connect and was using it as my main vehicle for private jobs and fishing gear. It was a 6 yr old ford connect and within 2 months the fuel pump went. So the two vans I've bought have both gone wrong. I know what you mean and this van was to tide me over for a while til I can afford a bigger one. That's interesting,I'll see what my mechanic says and if would for recon injectors. Thanks mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gustaff Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 seen it many times especialy with vehicles fitted with the new style injectors running on super market cheap **** fuel a waxy build up inthe injector spinning vanes causes them to fail. the government says all diesel must have a minimun of 5% of another sustainable scource added to it but the rip off super markets have been known to have 18% added not illegal but will cost you a set of injectors if you use regualarly lot cheaper to use branded fuel with the bs en570 labeled on pump or new injectors in long term Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 if the van was serviced properly it would have had a fuel filter change. If the system was not bled correctly there could be air in the system causing problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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