The Salisbury poison gas incident.

[Retsdon]

4 hours ago, mick miller said:

It's a funny old world. A world full of nut jobs. It seems several have found a home here. Anyone who thinks this isn't a Russian state sponsored use of a military grade nerve agent on British soil is genuinely bonkers, worthy of the finest custom foil hat. The nutnuts that continue to apologise for Putin's action should closely examine their loyalties too I suggest.

The component parts of the agent used can be analysed, that analysis produces a fingerprint, that fingerprint can be traced to a specific location. The expert analysis, admittedly not carried out by a housewife on Facebook, we are told points toward Russia as the origin. I don't really have any reason to doubt that, why would you?

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm referring to trusting the experts, not the politicians. The experts at Porton Down that did the analysis. Why would you not trust them over, say, a journalist or another agenda monkey? Or, indeed, the Russian government?

 

Hold on a minute there. 

Here is what Roger Black, head of Porton Down's Detection Lab wrote in an academic paper published by the Royal Society of Chemistry:

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published.

This wasn't written in 1998, or 2008, but two years ago - 2016. So as of then, Porton Down had no means to confirm the existence of this new generation of nerve agents. This view was endorsed by the OPCW, which is why novochok aren't on their list of banned substances.

If the UK, as of today, has developed the means to test and identify this substance and confirm that it comes from Russia and is an entirely new substance, they are obligated as signatories to the treaty setting up the OCPW to provide samples for confirmation. Let them do so, and let that process play out - concluding with whatever was used in Salisbury being placed on the banned list of substances and recognised by the OCPW as the new generation of nerve agent the UK govt claims it is.

In other words, the U.K. should conform to international law! So the government is either bypassing the agreed proper channels, or else it is unable to verify the provenance of this nerve gas. Which is it?

[Scully]

7 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Hold on a minute there. 

Here is what Roger Black, head of Porton Down's Detection Lab wrote in an academic paper published by the Royal Society of Chemistry:

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published.

This wasn't written in 1998, or 2008, but two years ago - 2016. So as of then, Porton Down had no means to confirm the existence of this new generation of nerve agents. This view was endorsed by the OPCW, which is why novochok aren't on their list of banned substances.

If the UK, as of today, has developed the means to test and identify this substance and confirm that it comes from Russia and is an entirely new substance, they are obligated as signatories to the treaty setting up the OCPW to provide samples for confirmation. Let them do so, and let that process play out - concluding with whatever was used in Salisbury being placed on the banned list of substances and recognised by the OCPW as the new generation of nerve agent the UK govt claims it is.

In other words, the U.K. should conform to international law! So the government is either bypassing the agreed proper channels, or else it is unable to verify the provenance of this nerve gas. Which is it?

I have no idea. Let us know of the response you get when you enquire of the relevant dept. Have you considered writing to any source of media also, such as the newspapers, to make them aware of your findings? 

Again, let us know how you get on. ?

[mick miller]

From what I have heard reported that's exactly what's now happening. Samples are being to the OCPW. Your post does undermine the assumptions by many on this thread that this is an internal job to finger or smear the Russians though doesn't it? It also contradicts the baseless hypothesis that the 'information has been available to all for years, so it could have been anybody' doesn't it. So which is it? Internal job, given that up till a few days ago that information was sparse? Or likely Russian in origin, given that they developed it, had the information, had a genuine grievance against someone they consider a traitor and substantial previous for bumping people off in other countries.

If you have a sample it' is entirely possible to have that analysed and work out the constituent parts. It's also entirely possible to identify fingerprints in the make-up of that sample that can point toward an origin. As I said, I'm not a scientist but these techniques are established and widely understood by others who are. Of course, if you don't have a sample because the information is sparse, it's not so easy. But fortunately, or unfortunately if you live in Salisbury, we do now have a sample.

Duh.

Edited March 15, 2018 by mick miller

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

Correct, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. 

 

Simply not true, you're just unwilling to engage with and listen to the tinfoil hat, conspiracy theorists  side. There is no way I can prove anything, there is simply not enough time, knowledge or 100% uncorrupted data here, for you or me. What I always say in these instances when people start throwing their toys out is to take a deep breath, relax and follow the info being offered out there on the social media platforms. My stance is the same as that of thousands of intelligent journalists, politicians, professors, lawyers, multi linguists, multi award winning authors, critical thinkers, news commentators, knowledgeable first hand data gained on the ground next to the bombs by social/rescue workers, historians, ACTUAL experts in their respective fields (rather than soundbite msm specialists)..............you get the picture. I trust them more than I trust your average hobby shooter with a school boy grasp of world politics, snide intended. 

What's more these guys/gals aren't all from the middle east, they include Irish, English, Scottish, Australian, Israeli, American, Canadian, eastern block countries, Russian, Iranian, Greek, Greek Cypriots, South American, African, etc, etc, etc...................what's holding you back, scared of finding out you've lived a lie all your life that's what. You know my name, FB friend me and tag along with the hundreds of commentator/posters there, they can't all be bonkers. 

Military grade that failed to even kill its intended victims, sounds more like pound shop grade, anyone who is naive enough to think Putin would court world wide condemnation so close to the world cup and with all the genuine dangers inherent in our world today is simply not thinking for himself. My loyalties are to ALL human beings, everything I say or write is because I detest war and I detest war mongers, poking Russia may sound a loyal thing to do to you but not to me. 

? I can assure you I haven’t got any toys to throw out of my pram even if I owned one! I’m perfectly relaxed; I just find you hilarious beyond belief. 

Russian state sponsored doping in sports.....conspiracy? ? 

By the way, you still  haven’t answered the questions I raised. No rush. ?

[mick miller]

I think you'll find it's been the Israelis doping the Russian athletes Scully. Part of a plot to undermine the illuminati or something.

[sierra 11]

" 5

VIDEO    Corbyn: Evidence points towards Russia "    (BBC website)

 

Oh! Jezza!   How could you?... you are a wag.........

[Rewulf]

I am actually quite surprised that some of you seem to be quite strongly against ANY notion that Russia MAY have been set up here.
The same people who quite regularly talk about government cover ups and misinformation regarding Brexit and the EU ,immigration and various other scandals, seem very unwilling to even consider government skullduggery this time.

I cant prove the Russians WERE set up, my feeling based on what Ive seen so far, leads me to believe they were.
To say that they are definitely guilty ('They' being the Russian government, and Putin in particular) based on what evidence there is, and the mindset of ' the russkies do this sort of thing all the time' isnt really good enough to my mind.
Its obviously good enough for our government though, as they have acted astonishingly suspiciously quickly in retribution.
And Ill say it again, this kind of kangaroo justice makes it all the more telling.

Ive learned a lot from this thread, and I hope that in the coming weeks and months, as this sorry tale unfolds, you will all think back , whichever side of the fence you sit on, and remember some of the things mentioned.

[Retsdon]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

I have no idea. Let us know of the response you get when you enquire of the relevant dept. Have you considered writing to any source of media also, such as the newspapers, to make them aware of your findings? 

Again, let us know how you get on.

Well, it seems we differ,. Me, I don't believe the government without evidence. And even then - after Iraq  - the evidence would need to be properly tested and verified, You, on the other hand, are seemingly happy to believe everything they tell you. No doubt you think me a tinfoil hatter, and no doubt I think you're hopelessly gullible.

And really, that's why political discussion is  probably best kept to those we  know we'll agree with, or those we know too well already to define by their political perspective. Politics can be horribly divisive; nobody ever changes anyone's mind; and otherwise good friends are lost before they are even made. And it'll be all the same in 100 years anyway.

[yod dropper]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

Military grade that failed to even kill its intended victims, sounds more like pound shop grade

You're so right, there's no way those two people who are still in intensive care were ever going to die if left to their own devices, probably just something bought in the high street.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Well, it seems we differ,. Me, I don't believe the government without evidence. And even then - after Iraq  - the evidence would need to be properly tested and verified, You, on the other hand, are seemingly happy to believe everything they tell you. No doubt you think me a tinfoil hatter, and no doubt I think you're hopelessly gullible.

 

You see ,I dont think that , people who dont agree with me on this particular matter are just following the official line, theres nothing wrong with that.
They can call me a nutter, tin foil hatter , I dont actually find it offensive, I dont think they are stupid or blind because they dont see it like I do.
Me, I just dont trust government, not since I was about 14 years old, but if you do thats fine.
We could put it to a PW vote if you like, but its not likely we are going to change government foreign policy any time soon is it ?

[yod dropper]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

My stance is the same as that of thousands of intelligent journalists, politicians, professors, lawyers, multi linguists, multi award winning authors, critical thinkers, news commentators, knowledgeable first hand data gained on the ground next to the bombs by social/rescue workers, historians, ACTUAL experts in their respective fields

I guess with such company you must be right.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

You're so right, there's no way those two people who are still in intensive care were ever going to die if left to their own devices, probably just something bought in the high street.

Dodgy sausage roll from Greggs 

[Retsdon]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You see ,I dont think that , people who dont agree with me on this particular matter are just following the official line, theres nothing wrong with that.
They can call me a nutter, tin foil hatter , I dont actually find it offensive, I dont think they are stupid or blind because they dont see it like I do.
Me, I just dont trust government, not since I was about 14 years old, but if you do thats fine.
We could put it to a PW vote if you like, but its not likely we are going to change government foreign policy any time soon is it ?

Well if I had to try and convince anyone, I would point them to Putin's 2007 Munich speech, and his speech to the UN in 2015. Ask them to watch  the full speeches and make their own minds up. Is this some kind of Dr. Evil cartoon character, or is it someone who is genuinely concerned with the way the world is going. And I'd only respond subsequently to specific points raised by what Putin had to say - not this Punch and Judy name calling nonsense. We're in danger of being bounced into a crisis here that we might not find our way out of, and for anyone who lives in a democracy I'd say it's almost a duty to at least see what 'the other side's' perspective is. Because the only alternative to dialogue is war.

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

 

Hold on a minute there. 

Here is what Roger Black, head of Porton Down's Detection Lab wrote in an academic paper published by the Royal Society of Chemistry:

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published.

This wasn't written in 1998, or 2008, but two years ago - 2016. So as of then, Porton Down had no means to confirm the existence of this new generation of nerve agents. This view was endorsed by the OPCW, which is why novochok aren't on their list of banned substances.

If the UK, as of today, has developed the means to test and identify this substance and confirm that it comes from Russia and is an entirely new substance, they are obligated as signatories to the treaty setting up the OCPW to provide samples for confirmation.

 

Problem solved - Retsdon has established that it was indeed a fourth generation nerve agent, although quite how he established that is open to question.

[Retsdon]

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Problem solved - Retsdon has established that it was indeed a fourth generation nerve agent, although quite how he established that is open to question.

If you get your war with Russia, come back here and post how it was for you.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Well if I had to try and convince anyone, I would point them to Putin's 2007 Munich speech, and his speech to the UN in 2015. Ask them to watch  the full speeches and make their own minds up. Is this some kind of Dr. Evil cartoon character, or is it someone who is genuinely concerned with the way the world is going. And I'd only respond subsequently to specific points raised by what Putin had to say - not this Punch and Judy name calling nonsense. We're in danger of being bounced into a crisis here that we might not find our way out of, and for anyone who lives in a democracy I'd say it's almost a duty to at least see what 'the other side's' perspective is. Because the only alternative to dialogue is war.

[Gordon R]

Quote

If you get your war with Russia, come back here and post how it was for you.

Bizarre - no change.

[Scully]

59 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Well, it seems we differ,. Me, I don't believe the government without evidence. And even then - after Iraq  - the evidence would need to be properly tested and verified, You, on the other hand, are seemingly happy to believe everything they tell you. No doubt you think me a tinfoil hatter, and no doubt I think you're hopelessly gullible.

And really, that's why political discussion is  probably best kept to those we  know we'll agree with, or those we know too well already to define by their political perspective. Politics can be horribly divisive; nobody ever changes anyone's mind; and otherwise good friends are lost before they are even made. And it'll be all the same in 100 years anyway.

As far as I'm aware I haven't stated I believe the government at any time at all; I despise politicians of any party and have stated as much on more than one occasion on this forum. That doesn't mean however, that I don't think the Russians aren't responsible. Why would those two comments be incompatible? 

Can I take it from your reply above that you have no intention of contacting either the media or a government dept' with your revelations? I've lost count of the number of times people find the time to come on here and rant or comment about this that and the other yet fail to find the time to contact those concerned or do anything else about it.  If you care so much as you obviously do, then do something about it. 

[Hamster]

49 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

I guess with such company you must be right.

That company against present, no contest,  one could call it military grade humiliation. 

 

1 hour ago, Scully said:

? I can assure you I haven’t got any toys to throw out of my pram even if I owned one! I’m perfectly relaxed; I just find you hilarious beyond belief. 

Russian state sponsored doping in sports.....conspiracy? ? 

By the way, you still  haven’t answered the questions I raised. No rush. ?

I rarely find true humour in military grade naivety, what question was that by the way ? Are you asking who I think did it again ? I told you I don't know beyond the fact it must be one or more of his enemies. This all looks too much of set up, the eagerness of Europe to tow the line and even Trump who has so far resisted other absurd suggestions such as Russian meddling in US elections has joined in on the bandwagon, to me it reinforces the machinations of the deep state at work. 

14 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

If you get your war with Russia, come back here and post how it was for you.

 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I am actually quite surprised that some of you seem to be quite strongly against ANY notion that Russia MAY have been set up here.
The same people who quite regularly talk about government cover ups and misinformation regarding Brexit and the EU ,immigration and various other scandals, seem very unwilling to even consider government skullduggery this time.

I cant prove the Russians WERE set up, my feeling based on what Ive seen so far, leads me to believe they were.
To say that they are definitely guilty ('They' being the Russian government, and Putin in particular) based on what evidence there is, and the mindset of ' the russkies do this sort of thing all the time' isnt really good enough to my mind.
Its obviously good enough for our government though, as they have acted astonishingly suspiciously quickly in retribution.
And Ill say it again, this kind of kangaroo justice makes it all the more telling.

Ive learned a lot from this thread, and I hope that in the coming weeks and months, as this sorry tale unfolds, you will all think back , whichever side of the fence you sit on, and remember some of the things mentioned.

Another excellent, woke post.

Let us all be careful what we wish for. 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Hamster said:

 

 

 what question was that by the way ? Are you asking who I think did it again ?

 

 

 

There was more than one question as you well know, but for your benefit I'll ask again.

1. What do our government plan to gain from blaming Russia for this attempted murder? 

2. Why aren't government opposition media all over this like a rash? 

3. Do you believe Russian state sponsored doping in sport is yet another conspiracy? 

4. Do you think it was just a dodgy sausage roll from Greggs as Rewulf suggests?  

5. I'm pretty sure there was another but I cant be bothered to look back through the thread as I don't expect any answers anyhow. 

[Retsdon]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

That doesn't mean however, that I don't think the Russians aren't responsible. Why would those two comments be incompatible? 

Quite. We agree. I'm happy to reserve judgement as to to who was responsible. You think it was the Russians. Fair enough - that's your prerogative. I think differently. All I'm saying is that at this point, unless there is evidence being withheld and the fact of that evidence existing being withheld, then all anyone has is 'I think'. And while that might be good enough on the Pigeon Watch off-topic forum it's a ****  poor way to run a government.

[Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

There was more than one question as you well know, but for your benefit I'll ask again.

1. What do our government plan to gain from blaming Russia for this attempted murder? 

2. Why aren't government opposition media all over this like a rash? 

3. Do you believe Russian state sponsored doping in sport is yet another conspiracy? 

4. Do you think it was just a dodgy sausage roll from Greggs as Rewulf suggests?  

5. I'm pretty sure there was another but I cant be bothered to look back through the thread as I don't expect any answers anyhow. 

Demonisation and isolation of Russia, this is all part of the payback for many years of Western humiliation and designs on future geopolitical alliances and even possible conflicts, in many ways it's a feeble gesture of threat.

Corbyn tried and got slaughtered (this is how the deep state functions), msm is complicit in MIC matters.

No meaningful opinion either way, on balance if I were a betting man I'd throw a tenner on Russia receiving more "equal" scrutiny than others.

Highly improbable, assumes the policeman helped himself to the remains. 

It's called delirious dysfunction brought on by a super naive persona . Sorry just too good an opportunity to miss. 

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Quite. We agree. I'm happy to reserve judgement as to to who was responsible. You think it was the Russians. Fair enough - that's your prerogative. I think differently. All I'm saying is that at this point, unless there is evidence being withheld and the fact of that evidence existing being withheld, then all anyone has is 'I think'. And while that might be good enough on the Pigeon Watch off-topic forum it's a ****  poor way to run a government.

[grrclark]

This somehow feels appropriate

[Howling Hound]

1 minute ago, grrclark said:

This somehow feels appropriate

Why? Whats the Queen got to do with it?

[grrclark]

I don't know, my protection stops me hearing the voices