The diplomats are out!!

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't think Russia is easily hurt, but much of the purpose of these things is (as you say) 'messages' that assassinating your enemies/traitors in UK cities won't go unnoticed.  To simply 'do nothing' and brush it under the carpet would not do.

 

I think you have stated it there, and I suspect he certainly won't be on Putin's Christmas card list.  I don't know what damage his activities did to Putin and his palls in the past.  Perhaps Putin has a long list and they are quietly working their way down it?  Perhaps also we know some covert instructions that may have been passed to operatives in the UK to act now?  That sort of thing isn't going to be revealed.  There were rumours he had been tipped off, but we don't know if that is true.

I cannot answer the points about Novichok, except to say that some reports say it can be used in a 'two part' form, say part a on the door handle, part b ??  car, restaurant/pub, in the street - no idea, and no idea if this is actually possible, but some stories are circulating along those lines.  I also can't understand how (if it is so deadly) his daughter seems to be very much better, and he is said to be recovering, but more slowly.  All very mysterious, but these are things Porton specialists will have looked into and reported 'upwards' on (including presumably to the International Chemical Warfare team and allied Porton counterparts).

Bottom line is that if our Government and all their experts and resources haven't made a case you can accept, I, a retired engineer am certainly not going to be able to from my kitchen table!

To me, the case is convincing - especially as I have seen no other explanation.  The actions taken to date have been diplomatically clear and have wide allied backing.  No individuals who have been expelled will have suffered much more than some disruption to their social lives - and that is a part of a diplomat's life.

I appreciate the the time you are taking to explain your viewpoint, and without the usual ridicule that accompanies an official stance opinion.

Like Ive said before, I dont scream conspiracy every time something like this goes down, if Boris and May had taken a less hysterical approach, I probably wouldnt have paid too much attention to the discrepancies in the narrative.
To my mind ,Boris was blaming the Russians before they even knew what had happened to Skripal and his daughter, and with such 'certainty' as to make it fake.
Im sorry ,but thats my feeling on the matter, it just doesnt sound right.
You approach it from the point where you believe what you are told is true, which is fine ,as long as the person or organisation  telling, has a proven track record for being honest.
Unfortunately, in this case, I see the will to create the SOLUTION by manufacturing the ACT , then justifying the process by apportioning BLAME , the INVESTIGATION takes a secondary role, and the results appear to be changing daily, the refusal to share any data with the Russians (so giving them nothing to refute) is peculiar in itself, justified by such terms as 'You dont let the arsonist investigate his own fire' 
Why dont they just say ,is this sample your chemical weapon  ?
What if they yes, someones obviously got hold of it.
If they say no, not ours, ours is like this.
Youre not really giving anything away, by showing them what you have on them, at the moment its a kangaroo court.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I appreciate the the time you are taking to explain your viewpoint, and without the usual ridicule that accompanies an official stance opinion.

Thank you, I have had various 'discussions' on threads on here and I have to say, most have always been good humoured, but have rarely changed views!  I also appreciate your common sense approach.

I think anyone using chemical weapons on the UK streets IS a very serious issue, but I don't see the response as exactly hysterical.  As I have said earlier, Boris (of whom I'm not a supporter) is inclined to engage mouth before switching on brain, and it shows at times.  I tend to ignore it.

IF we (with backup from the International Chemical Warfare mob) can establish without reasonable doubt it is of Russian origin ......... and we send it to them and they deny that (as I believe they would), it makes no forward progress, and gives them the ability to look as though they can confirm it wasn't them.  They have denied the Litvinenko and other cases, they denied the athlete doping thing for years.  The 'state' owning up to things isn't really their style.

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You approach it from the point where you believe what you are told is true, which is fine ,as long as the person or organisation  telling, has a proven track record for being honest.

I do, but in this case, I do believe the evidence overall so far, and appreciate it has 'matured', and expect it has more maturing to go.  If the International Chemical Warfare mob say that Porton is wrong and we are on the wrong track, I will have to backtrack, but at present I expect them to confirm Porton's findings.

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

To my mind ,Boris was blaming the Russians before they even knew what had happened to Skripal and his daughter, and with such 'certainty' as to make it fake.

Boris may have had more background we aren't being told about, I don't know, or he may have opened mouth before switching on brain.  I come back to the fact that no other credible explanation has been offered (to date), and all of the evidence points to Russia who have form in this area.

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thank you, I have had various 'discussions' on threads on here and I have to say, most have always been good humoured, but have rarely changed views!  I also appreciate your common sense approach.

I think anyone using chemical weapons on the UK streets IS a very serious issue, but I don't see the response as exactly hysterical.  As I have said earlier, Boris (of whom I'm not a supporter) is inclined to engage mouth before switching on brain, and it shows at times.  I tend to ignore it.

IF we (with backup from the International Chemical Warfare mob) can establish without reasonable doubt it is of Russian origin ......... and we send it to them and they deny that (as I believe they would), it makes no forward progress, and gives them the ability to look as though they can confirm it wasn't them.  They have denied the Litvinenko and other cases, they denied the athlete doping thing for years.  The 'state' owning up to things isn't really their style.

I do, but in this case, I do believe the evidence overall so far, and appreciate it has 'matured', and expect it has more maturing to go.  If the International Chemical Warfare mob say that Porton is wrong and we are on the wrong track, I will have to backtrack, but at present I expect them to confirm Porton's findings.

Boris may have had more background we aren't being told about, I don't know, or he may have opened mouth before switching on brain.  I come back to the fact that no other credible explanation has been offered (to date), and all of the evidence points to Russia who have form in this area.

Agreed on all points, hopefully some clarity will emerge in the end.
My fear is that,if  nothing is proved beyond doubt ,then we end up with a festering situation that helps neither side, as with Litvenenko , who I fully believe was killed on Putins orders (I dont believe they planned on getting caught though)

It is in no ones interest to escalate this to a conflict (unless you are an arms manufacturer) the world these days works more on commerce than conflict, but sometimes too much sabre rattling, makes for itchy trigger fingers.

[Retsdon]

Here's an interesting theory, put forward by a Norwegian, suggesting that father and daughter were poisoned by a substance called saxotoxin ; a toxin so powerful that it was weaponized by the US in the 60s as -a nerve agent!  And where id saxotoxin found? In dodgy seafood - particularly shellfish.. And where had the Skhipols been immediately before they were found? Eating risotto pesce with king prawns, mussels and squid rings at a seafood restaurant.

But then 'the authoritues' discovered who they were; and jumped to the conlusion that they'd been hit with a nerve agent. The symptoms are the same because saxotoxin acts on the same cells in the same way. However, instead of waiting until the investigation was complete,  the spooks jumped the gun and believed what they wanted to believe and the balloon went up. And of course, once out on a limb there was no route back.

I like it, because it  hypothesises the affair through the maxim of  'never attribute to malice that which can be explained by straightforward stupidity' and it pretty muh covers all the bases.

The link is here.http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/04/the-best-explanation-for-the-skripal-drama-is-food-poisoning.html#more

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Retsdon

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Here's an interesting theory, put forward by a Norwegian, suggesting that father and daughter were poisoned by a substance called saxotoxin ; a toxin so powerful that it was weaponized by the US in the 60s as -a nerve agent!  And where id saxotoxin found? In dodgy seafood - particularly shellfish.. And where had the Skhipols been immediately before they were found? Eating risotto pesce with king prawns, mussels and squid rings at a seafood restaurant.

But then 'the authoritues' discovered who they were; and jumped to the conlusion that they'd been hit with a nerve agent. The symptoms are the same because saxotoxin acts on the same cells in the same way. However, instead of waiting until the investigation was complete,  the spooks jumped the gun and believed what they wanted to believe and the balloon went up. And of course, once out on a limb there was no route back.

I like it, because it  hypothesises the affair through the maxim of  'never attribute to malice that which can be explained by straightforward stupidity' and it pretty muh covers all the bases.

The link is here.http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/04/the-best-explanation-for-the-skripal-drama-is-food-poisoning.html#more

 

At what point did they invite the affected copper to join them for a seafood lunch? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Here's an interesting theory, put forward by a Norwegian, suggesting that father and daughter were poisoned by a substance called saxotoxin ; a toxin so powerful that it was weaponized by the US in the 60s as -a nerve agent!  And where id saxotoxin found? In dodgy seafood - particularly shellfish.. And where had the Skhipols been immediately before they were found? Eating risotto pesce with king prawns, mussels and squid rings at a seafood restaurant.

But then 'the authoritues' discovered who they were; and jumped to the conlusion that they'd been hit with a nerve agent. The symptoms are the same because saxotoxin acts on the same cells in the same way. However, instead of waiting until the investigation was complete,  the spooks jumped the gun and believed what they wanted to believe and the balloon went up. And of course, once out on a limb there was no route back.

I like it, because it  hypothesises the affair through the maxim of  'never attribute to malice that which can be explained by straightforward stupidity' and it pretty muh covers all the bases.

The link is here.http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/04/the-best-explanation-for-the-skripal-drama-is-food-poisoning.html#more

 

Was the policeman at their table?

 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

At what point did they invite the affected copper to join them for a seafood lunch? 

Good point. 

This is also being touted by the cousin 

https://news.sky.com/story/salisbury-attack-yulia-and-sergei-skripals-relative-refused-entry-to-britain-11319366

Whilst you might find the dodgy prawn story a little far fetched, the phone call between Yulia and her cousin threw this one up, the day before the phone call Mr Skripal was described as 'still critical but stable' during the phone call Yulia describes her dad as 'fine and no permanent issues'  ? Next day the announcement that he's out of critical and talking! It's a miracle! 

Apparently the cousins visa was refused because she didn't have enough money in her bank account, you'd have thought Putin would have dropped her a few quid, or the home office overlook such an issue? 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Rewulf

[ordnance]

Quote

Yulia and her cousin threw this one up, the day before the phone call Mr Skripal was described as 'still critical but stable' during the phone call Yulia describes her dad as 'fine and no permanent issues'  ? Next day the announcement that he's out of critical and talking! It's a miracle! 

 

Interesting, do you have a link to the hospitals statement on one day that he was critical, and a statement the flowing day that he was fine. ?

Edited April 7, 2018 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

37 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

Interesting, do you have a link to the hospitals statement on one day that he was critical, and a statement the flowing day that he was fine. ?

3 days in total, I'll try and sequence the news items, but it was all on mainstream channels. 

[ordnance]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

3 days in total, I'll try and sequence the news items, but it was all on mainstream channels. 

You said next day, now three days later. You seem to be repeating Russian propaganda, i suppose that shows their distraction tactics are working. 

 

Quote

Rewulf Next day the announcement that he's out of critical and talking! It's a miracle! 

 

[Rewulf]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2018/apr/05/russian-tv-broadcasts-call-from-yulia-skripal-video

Phone call, reported on the 5th so probably happened on the 3rd or 4th

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/06/sergei-skripal-no-longer-in-critical-condition-and-improving-rapidly

Reported on the 6th. 

1 minute ago, ordnance said:

You said next day, now three days later. You seem to be repeating Russian propaganda, i suppose that shows their distraction tactics are working. 

 

 

Not at all, draw your own conclusions. 

One day he's critical 

Next day there's a phone call describing his condition. 

The third day the emancipated persian is out of the bag, and lo  and behold he's fine! 

At one stage it was said he would never fully recover, or his daughter, she's just told her cousin she's getting discharged soon, I'd be asking for my money back on this 'military grade gear' 

[Rewulf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43315636

Apparently he left the house (where the toxin was supposed to be)  around 9am on the day of the poisoning. He left zizzi at 3.30 pm and was found at 415.

That's a long time to not notice something might be amiss, considering the lethality of novichok. 

Just little descpencies that cast doubt on the official line. 

[ordnance]

Quote

At one stage it was said he would never fully recover, or his daughter, she's just told her cousin she's getting discharged soon, I'd be asking for my money back on this 'military grade gear.

It would depend on how much and what way they were infected, also on what and how quickly they were given antidotes. Have you never heard of cases were doctors have  said people were unlikely to survive and they did. 

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, ordnance said:

It would depend on how much and what way they were infected, also on what and how quickly they were given antidotes. Have you never heard of cases were doctors have  said people were unlikely to survive and they did. 

Yes of course. Generally speaking though, this is fairly alien territory for the doctors treating them, I would have thought they would need guidance from people who understood chemical warfare agents, I'm sure once they knew it was a nerve agent, they would fly some in.. Oh wait..

So If they got the antidote quick enough you say, but they didn't know it was a nerve toxin straight away, or did they? 

But then, military grade novichok doesn't have an antidote, or does it? It was a week before it was announced it was 'definitely Russian novichok' So unless they already knew for certain what it was, how could they possibly give the right treatment ASAP? 

You can blow holes in my theories all day long, but if you stand back and look at it without bias, you can also blow holes in the official line too. 

[Bazooka Joe]

39 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43315636

Apparently he left the house (where the toxin was supposed to be)  around 9am on the day of the poisoning. He left zizzi at 3.30 pm and was found at 415.

That's a long time to not notice something might be amiss, considering the lethality of novichok. 

Just little descpencies that cast doubt on the official line. 

I trying to see where the copper fits into all that, that's 7hrs 15mins before the Skripal's were effected, (if the Novichok was on the door handle) yet the copper was immediately.

More questions than answers.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I trying to see where the copper fits into all that, that's 7hrs 15mins before the Skripal's were effected, (if the Novichok was on the door handle) yet the copper was immediately.

More questions than answers.

Do you really think we will ever get answers? Truthful ones I mean! 

I just find the debate interesting, it's not like anyone's going to DO anything about it. 

Whatever the skripals were hit with, the cop got a light dose, and was detained for only a short time in hospital, maybe he gave one of them CPR? Way to many variables to speculate. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

Whatever the skripals were hit with, the cop got a light dose, and was detained for only a short time in hospital, maybe he gave one of them CPR? Way to many variables to speculate. 

Definitely a few variables...the point I was making, which doesn't make sense, was the Skripals getting infected 7hrs beforehand, (if that's true) & giving the reputation that Novichok has regarding lethality, it took 7hrs for them & minutes for the copper...

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Definitely a few variables...the point I was making, which doesn't make sense, was the Skripals getting infected 7hrs beforehand, (if that's true) & giving the reputation that Novichok has regarding lethality, it took 7hrs for them & minutes for the copper...

As has been said, swallowing the stuff or inhaling it, is going to hit you fast and hard. 

Whereas skin contact is a less potent delivery method.6 or 7 hours does seem a bit rubbish though!  But some versions of novichok are more potent than others, would not the Russians use their A grade stuff though? Is it even novichok? they SAY it is, but the only people who have confirmed it are Porton Down, they won't give any to the Russkies for some reason, though it would shut them up somewhat if they did, go figure. 

[Retsdon]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

At what point did they invite the affected copper to join them for a seafood lunch? 

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that DS Bailey had eaten a prawn pizza for his lunch in the same restaurant independently and was poisoned independently.. First he was supposedly poisoned while 'tending' to the Skripols, although medical first responders were unaffected.Then he was supposedly poisoned in their house. Then 'traces of a nerve agent' were apprently discoveref in the restaurant, although exactly how or where remains typically opaque. But of course, by the time the  culprit prawns were analysed, there would have been a full blown international incident on the go to defuse. " Um, terribly sorry - we went off at half-cock. Actually, it was the prawns...' Like I said - no way back off the limb. So better to just brazen it out and hope. About par for the course for this government quite honestly.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Retsdon

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that DS Bailey had eaten a prawn pizza for his lunch in the same restaurant independently and was poisoned independently.. First he was supposedly poisoned while 'tending' to the Skripols, although medical first responders were unaffected.Then he was supposedly poisoned in their house. Then 'traces of a nerve agent' were apprently discoveref in the restaurant, although exactly how or where remains typically opaque. But of course, by the time the  culprit prawns were analysed, there would have been a full blown internatoonal incident on the go to defuse. " Um, terribly sorry - we went off at half-cock. Actually, it was the prawns...' Like I said - no way back off the limb. So better to just brazen it out and hope. About par for the course for this government quite honestly.

? 

[ordnance]

 

Quote

A grade stuff though? Is it even novichok? they SAY it is, but the only people who have confirmed it are Porton Down, they won't give any to the Russkies for some reason, though it would shut them up somewhat if they did, go figure. 

And what do you think the Russians would say if they give them a sample, OK we tested the sample and it was us we did it.  The Russians are playing games trying to muddy the water, the government did the right thing giving the evidence to the organisation for the prohibition of chemical weapons a independent organisation that can come to a conclusion that will be more believable than anything the Russians will say. 

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that DS Bailey had eaten a prawn pizza for his lunch in the same restaurant independently and was poisoned independently.. First he was supposedly poisoned while 'tending' to the Skripols, although medical first responders were unaffected.Then he was supposedly poisoned in their house. Then 'traces of a nerve agent' were apprently discoveref in the restaurant, although exactly how or where remains typically opaque. But of course, by the time the  culprit prawns were analysed, there would have been a full blown international incident on the go to defuse. " Um, terribly sorry - we went off at half-cock. Actually, it was the prawns...' Like I said - no way back off the limb. So better to just brazen it out and hope. About par for the course for this government quite honestly.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

And what do you think the Russians would say if they give them a sample, OK we tested the sample and it was us we did it.  The Russians are playing games trying to muddy the water, the government did the right thing giving the evidence to the organisation for the prohibition of chemical weapons a independent organisation that can come to a conclusion that will be more believable than anything the Russians will say. 

Is it? 

I'm sure they've broken their own rules by not letting Russia be part of the investigation. 

You say Russias trying to muddy the waters? They could test the sample and say it wasn't them, of course they could! And then what? We call them liars err, like we already are doing! 

If they wanted to be really play games, and presuming they ever get a sample, they could say yes, it's our manufacture, but we didn't do it, this stuff we sold to NK! 

But for some reason, they are not allowed anything, samples, evidence, you know those things that go with accusations! Otherwise that's all it is, accusation. Because they've got form.

But if you really wanted to frame someone, this is exactly what you would do. 

[ordnance]

Quote

You say Russias trying to muddy the waters? They could test the sample and say it wasn't them, of course they could! And then what? We call them liars err, like we already are doing! 

Exactly it would be a pointless exercise. 

Quote

I'm sure they've broken their own rules by not letting Russia be part of the investigation. 

 You are sure they have broken the rules or they have broken the rules which is it. ?

Edited April 7, 2018 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Exactly it would be a pointless exercise. 

 You are sure they have broken the rules or they have broken the rules  which is it. ?

Without checking, I can't be 100% 

I heard any investigation into illegal use of chemical weapons needs all members states of the OPCW to participate in said investigation, but it's irrelevant anyway, they have decided not to share anything with Russia, they even voted on it, the problem is, there are many more NATO countries on the panel than not, so its somewhat stacked, that's why I asked if you really think its independent. 

Out of interest, what do you think the findings of the OPCW will be? 

[ordnance]

Quote

Out of interest, what do you think the findings of the OPCW will be? 

I don't know that is what the investigation is for, i will believe them before i believe the Russian government, or should i say Vladimir Putin. If others would rather believe Russia thats fine.