motty Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 56 minutes ago, Scully said: Gordon Bennett! You’re hilarious! I’m not arguing with you for crying out loud; I never at any time even suggested you HAD suggested he couldn’t use HP steel through his gun! What on earth is your problem? The OP asked if he could use steel through his gun and the answer is yes; whether it is proofed for steel or not is irrelevant; the fact is he can! There is no information from the mighty woo or whomever to say he can’t, ( unless you know different of course ) official or otherwise. The fact is he can. Your information is nether incorrect nor inaccurate, but neither is mine, but then you started rabbiting on about crossing busy roads or something! Correct. ?Ditto for proofing for nitro. All my guns have survived steel shot proofing but none have a fleur de Lisle. Good replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraai Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 Name me 1 cal 20 steel cart that is hp..and i dont mean 3"" carts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Scully said: Gordon Bennett! You’re hilarious! I’m not arguing with you for crying out loud; I never at any time even suggested you HAD suggested he couldn’t use HP steel through his gun! What on earth is your problem? The OP asked if he could use steel through his gun and the answer is yes; whether it is proofed for steel or not is irrelevant; the fact is he can! There is no information from the mighty woo or whomever to say he can’t, ( unless you know different of course ) official or otherwise. The fact is he can. Your information is nether incorrect nor inaccurate, but neither is mine, but then you started rabbiting on about crossing busy roads or something! But you are arguing! Neither you, I, nor anyone else is qualified to judge or advise, whether any particular gun will be safe to fire any particular cartridge /load/shot, unless the proofmarks tell you it is!.....that's what they're there for! The only way anyone can know, is if the gun is sound, undamaged, unmodified, in proof and bears proof mark stamps confirming its suitability for use with a particular cartridge/load/shot.............so without this information, how can you in all conscience, advise people it's ok to shoot HP steel through any gun that is not proved to do so?........Sheer arrogance? As to my comparison with running across a motorway, anyone can of course do it........but like shooting HP steel through a gun not proofed to do so........No responsible person should recommend it to others! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, panoma1 said: But you are arguing! Neither you, I, nor anyone else is qualified to judge or advise, whether any particular gun will be safe to fire any particular cartridge /load/shot, unless the proofmarks tell you it is!.....that's what they're there for! The only way anyone can know, is if the gun is sound, undamaged, unmodified, in proof and bears proof mark stamps confirming its suitability for use with a particular cartridge/load/shot.............so without this information, how can you in all conscience, advise people it's ok to shoot HP steel through any gun that is not proved to do so?........Sheer arrogance? As to my comparison with running across a motorway, anyone can of course do it........but like shooting HP steel through a gun not proofed to do so........No responsible person should recommend it to others! You need to climb down off your high horse for a bit. I owned a Winchester Model 12 that had never been proofed, having been smuggled into the country by a previous owner via the USA and then from New Zealand. It became of interest to my licensing department when it was entered on my ticket as ‘given’. Did I fire it? Of course I did. Proof is nothing more than a revenue gathering exercise based on a fear by the English gun trade that their revenue was under threat from cheap continental imports flooding the market a few hundred years ago. It is a test that a specific barrel satisfied a specific specification at a specific moment in time. I haven’t shirked any responsibility on my part as a responsible person by my comment. The OP asked if he could use steel through his shotgun; the answer is still yes, he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Scully said: You need to climb down off your high horse for a bit. Proof is nothing more than a revenue gathering exercise based on a fear by the English gun trade that their revenue was under threat from cheap continental imports flooding the market a few hundred years ago. It is a test that a specific barrel satisfied a specific specification at a specific moment in time. So in your considered opinion, the proof testing of guns and cartridges, serves no purpose other than as "a revenue gathering exercise", so presumably in consequence you believe it to be unnecessary? Yep! Sheer arrogance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: So in your considered opinion, the proof testing of guns and cartridges, serves no purpose other than as "a revenue gathering exercise", so presumably in consequence you believe it to be unnecessary? Yep! Sheer arrogance! Seriously, you are being pathetic. I have absolutely no doubt that the gun in question would pass a steel proof test. It is very possible that the same barrel on a different gun has passed steel proof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 (edited) Whatever. Like I said, it is a test to prove that a barrel withstood a specific charge at a specific moment in time. My Model 12 certainly didn’t need to pass any British proof house tests to ensure it was safe to shoot; make of that what you will. Edited: I thought I’d quoted Panomas post prior to this response! ? Edited April 11, 2018 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 47 minutes ago, motty said: Seriously, you are being pathetic. I have absolutely no doubt that the gun in question would pass a steel proof test. It is very possible that the same barrel on a different gun has passed steel proof! Again someone quoting personal opinion not proven fact!......as for your accusing me of "being pathetic"......pot, kettle, black comes to mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 55 minutes ago, Scully said: Whatever. Like I said, it is a test to prove that a barrel withstood a specific charge at a specific moment in time. My Model 12 certainly didn’t need to pass any British proof house tests to ensure it was safe to shoot; make of that what you will. Edited: I thought I’d quoted Panomas post prior to this response! ? Rubbish! A gun barrel, once proofed remains "in proof" for the load/cartridge/shot It passed proof for, and as such is safe to use with this load/cartridge/shot until such time as the barrel, for whatever reason is rendered "out of proof"....proof does not expire immediately after the specific moment in time the test took place......it ain't an MOT! As for your Winchester, you DEEMED it safe to shoot, only the proof test could ENSURE as far as possible, it was safe to shoot! You, like other keep expressing your personal opinion, rather than quoting scientifically proven fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraai Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 What a waste of time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 L 10 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Rubbish! A gun barrel, once proofed remains "in proof" for the load/cartridge/shot It passed proof for, and as such is safe to use with this load/cartridge/shot until such time as the barrel, for whatever reason is rendered "out of proof"....proof does not expire immediately after the specific moment in time the test took place......it ain't an MOT! As for your Winchester, you DEEMED it safe to shoot, only the proof test could ENSURE as far as possible, it was safe to shoot! You, like other keep expressing your personal opinion, rather than quoting scientifically proven fact! Like I alluded to before, you could have two identical barrels on two identical guns that were made by the same person, one after the other. One is taken to the proof house and passes a steel proof test, the other isn't. Would you use steel in the one that wasn't proofed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kraai said: What a waste of time... Is that your considered opinion? Lol!........Don't fret, I've said what I want to say, people are free to choose to either follow some random unqualified personal opinion or scientifically proven fact! Same as firing an unproved gun really........or running across the motorway! Lol! it's up to the individual! 4 minutes ago, motty said: L Like I alluded to before, you could have two identical barrels on two identical guns that were made by the same person, one after the other. One is taken to the proof house and passes a steel proof test, the other isn't. Would you use steel in the one that wasn't proofed? That isn't the question is it? I will keep my personal opinion to myself....but if advising someone who asked me the question, I would recommend choosing the proofed barrel every time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Rubbish! A gun barrel, once proofed remains "in proof" for the load/cartridge/shot It passed proof for, and as such is safe to use with this load/cartridge/shot until such time as the barrel, for whatever reason is rendered "out of proof"....proof does not expire immediately after the specific moment in time the test took place......it ain't an MOT! As for your Winchester, you DEEMED it safe to shoot, only the proof test could ENSURE as far as possible, it was safe to shoot! You, like other keep expressing your personal opinion, rather than quoting scientifically proven fact! Really? A gun barrel remains in proof as part of the proof act until it is deemed out of proof by that same act. I wasn’t suggesting proof expired immediately after the event, but rather that proof is no guarantee the barrel won’t fail; it is merely a stamp to state that the barrel underwent proof. As regards my Model 12, I rather think Winchester may have deemed it safe at time of manufacture. ? I very much doubt they feel that further vindication from a British proof house is needed, although the British proof house would appear to disagree with that. I wonder why? Could it be money? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 There are two types of people in this world .... those that do things . and those that moan about people that do things ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Scully said: Really? A gun barrel remains in proof as part of the proof act until it is deemed out of proof by that same act. I wasn’t suggesting proof expired immediately after the event, but rather that proof is no guarantee the barrel won’t fail; it is merely a stamp to state that the barrel underwent proof. As regards my Model 12, I rather think Winchester may have deemed it safe at time of manufacture. ? I very much doubt they feel that further vindication from a British proof house is needed, although the British proof house would appear to disagree with that. I wonder why? Could it be money? ? Let's face another fact, the only thing guaranteed in life is death, gun barrel proof testing is as near as you can get to a guarantee of safety ............someone's opinion on whether a gun is safe is just that...........an opinion! Deemed and proved are not the same!.......as I said the clue is in the word! I'm fed up of going over the same ground, so everyone else probably is......so I'm out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraai Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 53 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Is that your considered opinion? Lol!........Don't fret, I've said what I want to say, people are free to choose to either follow some random unqualified personal opinion or scientifically proven fact! Same as firing an unproved gun really........or running across the motorway! Lol! it's up to the individual! That isn't the question is it? I will keep my personal opinion to myself....but if advising someone who asked me the question, I would recommend choosing the proofed barrel every time! Did you ever fire a steel cartridge or do you just read books and dont shoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 Has that answered your question OP? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsDad Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 (edited) If he had followed the advice given by `Newbie to this` yesterday, we could all have been spared the sniping. Edited April 11, 2018 by JJsDad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 (edited) What is it you find so hard to understand. Berretta Benelli Yidiz are Superior Proofed which Birmingham AND London except for Steel proofing. Again can't you read or understand myself and father rang both London Birmingham Proof House along with GMK . You it would seem as I'm sure others would/will agree are a disbelieving person who likes causing controversy for a better word a " Troll " so please go forth and multiply preferably into a bubble and float away Edited April 11, 2018 by 6.5x55SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 I've got a 20ga here that is proofed to 1630 bar, no fluer de lys on it, so obviously I can't shoot steel through it... It's a superior proof, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what they do in the proof house different for steel shot proofing, other than sticking a huge cartridge through it, same as lead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 1 hour ago, JJsDad said: If he had followed the advice given by `Newbie to this` yesterday, we could all have been spared the sniping. Or he could have followed the advice given by people who have real world experience, having fired thousands of steel cartridges through a variety of guns. Funny how all the people I know who use steel in their non - steel proofed guns haven't had a problem with them. Amazing how we have all got away with it! Phew! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 It’s amazing that threads about this subject always bring out vitriol on both sides. Such a pity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffyspen Posted April 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 I’m still confused!!!!! That really did blow up! thanks all for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 12, 2018 Report Share Posted April 12, 2018 9 hours ago, staffyspen said: I’m still confused!!!!! That really did blow up! thanks all for your input. Glad we could help! ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 12, 2018 Report Share Posted April 12, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Kraai said: Name me 1 cal 20 steel cart that is hp..and i dont mean 3"" carts challenge accepted ! http://www.fiocchi.com/en/category/products-by-uses-hunting-smoothbore-cal-20/line/wetland-cal-20 http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=2&cartridge_type_id=7 Edited April 12, 2018 by cookoff013 i have limited computer skills and fat fingers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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