Proof markings and steel shot

[panoma1]

12 hours ago, JJsDad said:

If he had followed the advice given by `Newbie to this` yesterday, we could all have been spared the sniping.

 

11 hours ago, motty said:

Or he could have followed the advice given by people who have real world experience, having fired thousands of steel cartridges through a variety of guns. Funny how all the people I know who use steel in their non - steel proofed guns haven't had a problem with them. Amazing how we have all got away with it! Phew!

Now! At last! We have the real choice facing the OP, does he follow official or unofficial advice?

[Scully]

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

challenge accepted !

http://www.fiocchi.com/en/category/products-by-uses-hunting-smoothbore-cal-20/line/wetland-cal-20

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=2&cartridge_type_id=7

 

Is that Fiocchi HP? Note the disclaimer! ?

[Kraai]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

Is that Fiocchi HP? Note the disclaimer! ?

900 bar is that hp?

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

challenge accepted !

http://www.fiocchi.com/en/category/products-by-uses-hunting-smoothbore-cal-20/line/wetland-cal-20

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=2&cartridge_type_id=7

 

??

[Guest cookoff013]

yeah, that just exceeds the 850bar average.

those pesky Italians have been doing this for ages. 

its also similar with some  fiocchi 12gauge game loads, the 65mm version is normal and the 70mm is HP and just sneaks over to 800bar map as compared to the 740 cip map limit.

 

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

yeah, that just exceeds the 850bar average.

those pesky Italians have been doing this for ages. 

its also similar with some  fiocchi 12gauge game loads, the 65mm version is normal and the 70mm is HP and just sneaks over to 800bar map as compared to the 740 cip map limit.

 

Fair enough; I wasnt sure. ?

[panoma1]

On 10/04/2018 at 18:55, 6.5x55SE said:

100% agree Kraai plenty of Berretta Benelli don't have Fleur de leys but Mr Berretta says they are Super Proofed I'll stand being corrected but does the 2 crown with SUP not mean Super Proof.

Wrong! No such thing as "Super" proof! So I doubt Mr Beretta said anything of the sort! Two crowns over SUP is the old magnum lead proof!

[panoma1]

On 10/04/2018 at 21:14, 6.5x55SE said:

Total Rubbish don't believe me ring Berretta as i stated my father's 3.5" chamber Benelli Pump has no Fleur de leys but is superior proofed so suitable for any steel cartridges also i had a 3.5" chamber again just the same as my Father's gun just a thought ring Birmingham Proof House as i did 

Not Rubbish! Your response is inaccurate....Superior proof has replaced the old lead magnum proof, and is NOT approved by the proofhouse for HP steel shot.........Steel proof is a different proof!

On 10/04/2018 at 22:11, 6.5x55SE said:

Never said they was also I personally have shot a 20ga for over 40yrs and never seen a 20ga superior proofed so rather than posting rubbish replys post something useful as i stated I'll stand being corrected and to proof a point i could take a photo of my father's gun but his is a 12ga not a 20ga as the OP was asking about .

If you've "never seen a 20g superior proofed" take a look at the photo in the OP's first post! Both CIP over an S and Two crowns over SUP......are superior proof marks!....Your talking rubbish!

Edited April 12, 2018 by panoma1
More facts included.

[panoma1]

13 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

What is it you find so hard to understand.

Berretta Benelli Yidiz are Superior Proofed which Birmingham AND London except for Steel proofing.

Again can't you read or understand myself and father rang both London Birmingham Proof House along with GMK .

You it would seem as I'm sure others would/will agree are a disbelieving person who likes causing controversy for a better word a " Troll "  so please go forth and multiply preferably into a bubble and float away 

I have quoted some of your rediculous responses on this thread and what springs to mind is an old saying that goes something like "better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[timps]

I have had long debates on PW in this in the past and not going down that road again but for some info.

According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like shot proof uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure (not burst pressure) per barrel than the standard PSF** 1370 lead shot test. The gun is then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

Meaning that while the chamber pressures are the same for both steel and lead, the pressure in the rest of the barrel is some 30% greater for HP steel proof test.

In the eyes of CIP a gun not subjected to the steel proof test would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased.

The proof test is designed to take into consideration if everything that could go wrong did go wrong (faulty load etc) the gun would survive.

Not every gun a manufacturer sends to the proof house passes meaning that faulty guns are produced every year and the last place you want to find this out is a few inches from your face and next to your hand.

The increased risk is because there is always a remote possibility that your gun could fail the HP steel proof load but would have survive the standard PSF** 1370.

This mythical gun could quite happily survive on HP steel but one slightly different cart (faulty) or change in brand and there could be a failure.

God knows the odds on that scenario but I thought I would point it out all the same, there is an increase in risk, if you are happy with this risk then go for it, if not then don’t.

However, it is only responsible to point out the increase in risk however remote for the actual individual to decide for themselves.

[Smokersmith]

15 minutes ago, timps said:

I have had long debates on PW in this in the past and not going down that road again but for some info.

According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like shot proof uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure (not burst pressure) per barrel than the standard PSF** 1370 lead shot test. The gun is then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

Meaning that while the chamber pressures are the same for both steel and lead, the pressure in the rest of the barrel is some 30% greater for HP steel proof test.

In the eyes of CIP a gun not subjected to the steel proof test would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased.

The proof test is designed to take into consideration if everything that could go wrong did go wrong (faulty load etc) the gun would survive.

Not every gun a manufacturer sends to the proof house passes meaning that faulty guns are produced every year and the last place you want to find this out is a few inches from your face and next to your hand.

The increased risk is because there is always a remote possibility that your gun could fail the HP steel proof load but would have survive the standard PSF** 1370.

This mythical gun could quite happily survive on HP steel but one slightly different cart (faulty) or change in brand and there could be a failure.

God knows the odds on that scenario but I thought I would point it out all the same, there is an increase in risk, if you are happy with this risk then go for it, if not then don’t.

However, it is only responsible to point out the increase in risk however remote for the actual individual to decide for themselves.

A genuinely useful post amid all of opinions  ... nice work

[Big Mat]

33 minutes ago, timps said:

I have had long debates on PW in this in the past and not going down that road again but for some info.

According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like shot proof uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure (not burst pressure) per barrel than the standard PSF** 1370 lead shot test. The gun is then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

Meaning that while the chamber pressures are the same for both steel and lead, the pressure in the rest of the barrel is some 30% greater for HP steel proof test.

In the eyes of CIP a gun not subjected to the steel proof test would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased.

The proof test is designed to take into consideration if everything that could go wrong did go wrong (faulty load etc) the gun would survive.

Not every gun a manufacturer sends to the proof house passes meaning that faulty guns are produced every year and the last place you want to find this out is a few inches from your face and next to your hand.

The increased risk is because there is always a remote possibility that your gun could fail the HP steel proof load but would have survive the standard PSF** 1370.

This mythical gun could quite happily survive on HP steel but one slightly different cart (faulty) or change in brand and there could be a failure.

God knows the odds on that scenario but I thought I would point it out all the same, there is an increase in risk, if you are happy with this risk then go for it, if not then don’t.

However, it is only responsible to point out the increase in risk however remote for the actual individual to decide for themselves.

So if a gun if proofed to 1370 bar but no fluer de lys  ( which some are ). It's been subjected to a different proof cartridge to a gun with a 1370 bar proof and fluer de lys? 

That can't be right, 1370 bar is 1370 bar whether you're shooting lead , steel or gold! 

[Smokersmith]

3 minutes ago, Big Mat said:

Meaning that while the chamber pressures are the same for both steel and lead, the pressure in the rest of the barrel is some 30% greater for HP steel proof test.

Does that help explain it Mat ?

[Big Mat]

27 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Does that help explain it Mat ?

It does make some sense. 

Trouble with this steel proof, some manufacturers don't stamp them but then say they are proofed, I've 2 guns like that. It's just a great big confusing minefield. 

Now I'm off to shoot some steel through a non stamped gun?

[Guest cookoff013]

i`m not sure that turkey are a member of the cip. 

it stands to reason that the guns are imported into the uk. 

proofed to "some" standard in the UK (its proof marks tell me that.) 

it was made in 2014, hardly antique.

as for the HP with lead and HP with steel, i dont know. 

all i know is the importer probably would have to have the whole batch proofed. i doubt that it would have been proofed before sending to uk and there are different proofing standards all around the world. funny old subject really.

[Scully]

I find it amusing that no matter in which country guns are made, before they can be offered for sale in the UK and no matter what tests those guns have been subject to by their manufacturer beforehand, they have to undergo the ‘stamp’ of approval from the British proof house. 

This applies to famous and well established companies such as Browning, Winchester, Remington, Korth, Colt, Smith and Wesson etc etc etc and including Beretta, who were making firearms when Jesus was a lad! ?

Strange eh? 

[timps]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

I find it amusing that no matter in which country guns are made, before they can be offered for sale in the UK and no matter what tests those guns have been subject to by their manufacturer beforehand, they have to undergo the ‘stamp’ of approval from the British proof house. 

This applies to famous and well established companies such as Browning, Winchester, Remington, Korth, Colt, Smith and Wesson etc etc etc and including Beretta, who were making firearms when Jesus was a lad! ?

Strange eh? 

Most things go for type approval in the country of sale regardless of country of manufacture, cars are one for example.

Regarding Beretta, Winchester or Browning they are usually proofed in Europe, Italy or Belgium which are a CIP member sates and go nowhere near a British proof house.

I often worked with the American ASTM standards, some are far superior to ours, some woefully inferior so I get why we insist on our guns being proofed in a CIP member state.

Edited April 12, 2018 by timps

[Scully]

47 minutes ago, timps said:

Most things go for type approval in the country of sale regardless of country of manufacture, cars are one for example.

Regarding Beretta, Winchester or Browning they are usually proofed in Europe, Italy or Belgium which are a CIP member sates and go nowhere near a British proof house.

I often worked with the American ASTM standards, some are far superior to ours, some woefully inferior so I get why we insist on our guns being proofed in a CIP member state.

Everdays a school day. ?

I often wondered about companies such as Winchester, as the Model 12 I owned hadn’t been proofed in this country. My licensing department regarded it as out of proof, whereas it hadn’t been proofed at all. Hence the ‘given’ on my ticket. 

[mudpatten]

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php?id=723

 

It`s always worth reading the first couple of paragraphs. And then read it again. And then read it once more.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by mudpatten

[staffyspen]

So can we determine what some of these mean, not the magnum 20/76?!

[Scully]

20 is the bore and 76 the cartridge length. In mm.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Scully

[6.5x55SE]

8 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I have quoted some of your rediculous responses on this thread and what springs to mind is an old saying that goes something like "better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt"

And I take offence of your comments  ( 1 ) I am most definitely not a fool

( 2 ) I'm no lier

( 3 ) my father is not a lier 

(4 ) Both Birmingham and London told myself and father his Benelli my Zabala was suitable and safe to shoot/use all steel cartridges

( 5 ) GMK told my Father the same as both proof house.

Except it or not please stop you rubbish insulting replies to myself

[staffyspen]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

20 is the bore and 76 the cartridge length. In mm.

Cheers, that’s the part I do know!

[panoma1]

21 minutes ago, staffyspen said:

So can we determine what some of these mean, not the magnum 20/76?!

This is the makers info/spec, it's Turkish and irrelevant in respect of proof, Turkey is not recognised under CIP proof, so when imported into the UK it needed to be submitted to one of the two UK proofhouses to be proofed to CIP spec....to enable it to be legally sold in the UK.

In your first posting my interpretation of the proofmarks shown in the picture reveals it was proofed in Birmingham in 2014 by tester 5, for superior (old mag) proof, the bore dia, the bore (20b) and the chamber length 76mm.

but I'm sure someone on here will come up with a different interpretation! Lol!

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, staffyspen said:

Cheers, that’s the part I do know!

? Sorry, read it wrong! 

[staffyspen]

14 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

This is the makers info/spec, it's Turkish and irrelevant in respect of proof, Turkey is not recognised under CIP proof, so when imported into the UK it needed to be submitted to one of the two UK proofhouses to be proofed to CIP spec....to enable it to be legally sold in the UK.

In your first posting my interpretation of the proofmarks shown in the picture reveals it was proofed in Birmingham in 2014 by tester 5, for superior (old mag) proof, the bore dia, the bore (20b) and the chamber length 76mm.

but I'm sure someone on here will come up with a different interpretation! Lol!

Ok, cheers, 

so the letters and 870 mean nout to us as the important information is proof stamped on the barrels and was all done here.