pattern testing ,over bored barrels worth the hype ?

[Guest stevo]

right then ,

those that know me me  ,

know I don't really think a great deal to pattern testing  different types of cartridge with different chokes etc etc ,however  ...

yes I do pattern all my guns but for NO other reason then for gun fit , for me personally the proof of how a cartridge performs is is real use . however ...... I know there are a lot of the PW massive that do like to how there  cartridge and choke combos work and I respect that .

over the past few weeks I sort of got thinking ( as you do )  I have have in my gun cabinet a Beretta 391 tenkys with a nominal bore of 18.4 and  a Beretta dt11 ( couple of weeks old ) with the tapered boring 18.6 backboard  . and and it got me thinking about ALL THE HYPE about the dt11 overbored HP Optima verses the Optima barrel is it really better or is it nothing  more than a sales pitch ?

sooooo thought I would do a little back to back test . 

you know my views on patterning so I will leave it to you lot to discuss, I will  be really interested in your views , good or bad  . 

so lets get going then .

guns and shell used . and distance.

gun 1 .

Beretta AL391 teknys  Optima choke system 

Eley superb size 8 shot 28 grams , plaswad

barrel bore  Beretta Optima 18.4 nom ( straight tube ) 

choke 3/8th 

Distance 35 yards 

pic 1 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qb2wut9gl4vs4lf/Photo 26-05-2018%2C 16 36 16.jpg?dl=0

 

next up 

Beretta dt 11 HP optima choke system 

Eley superb size 8 shot 28 grams , plaswad 

barrel bore Beretta HP Optima 18.6 back bored Tapered barrel 

choke 3/8th

Distance 35 yards 

pic 2 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8puvsr6vt7g5xc/Photo 26-05-2018%2C 16 37 07.jpg?dl=0

so there you have it folks , Old verses New . what are you views ? is there a satisfactory advancement in performance? 

just to add I have done my level best to insure the best comparison possible, , as in the ONLY thing different is the barrel boring and the choke system, everything else is the same .

hope its of interest.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by stevo

[TIGHTCHOKE]

No pictures yet!

[Guest stevo]

I know I maybe shouldn't say owt , but I can't help but look and admire the pattern thrown by the DT11 , in my view its about as good as it gets . 

[Esca]

Newdes seem tighter 

[Ttfjlc]

I'm certainly curious....as to whether or not you picked up the 2 plastic wads....??

Edited June 29, 2018 by Ttfjlc

[Guest stevo]

Just now, Ttfjlc said:

I'm certainly curious....as to whether you picked up the 2 plastic wads....??

hahaha , you sir are a legend  ?and fair play .

3 minutes ago, Esca said:

Newdes seem tighter 

yes but see how consistent it is across the whole pattern area .

[Esca]

2 minutes ago, Ttfjlc said:

I'm certainly curious....as to whether or not you picked up the 2 plastic wads....??

I didn't want to go there. But now you mentioned it........ ?

3 minutes ago, stevo said:

hahaha , you sir are a legend  ?and fair play .

yes but see how consistent it is across the whole pattern area .

OK at the risk of setting the thread aflame.  Have you tried fibre. This is a genuine question ?

[Guest stevo]

6 minutes ago, Esca said:

I didn't want to go there. But now you mentioned it........ ?

OK at the risk of setting the thread aflame.  Have you tried fibre. This is a genuine question ?

no I haven't , only because these are comp guns and will only ever be using plaswad . but I'm willing to wager the results would be the same only patterns would be more akin to 1/4 as opposed to 3/8th 

[Gordon R]

Without spending too much time on comparison, the DT11 seems a more evenly spread pattern with less pellets outside the circle. The Teknys looks slightly denser in the centre.

A better comparison might be with felt wads. More chance of gas going past the wad on an over-bored barrel.

Just noticed that someone has raised the same issue.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Gordon R

[Guest stevo]

I have used fibre wad in the DT11on some DTL and ABT just not at the pattern plate   , it performed no different to plaswad , the new DTs have a different bore to the early Gen 1 models . 

Edited June 29, 2018 by stevo

[Ttfjlc]

17 minutes ago, stevo said:

hahaha , you sir are a legend  ?and fair play .

 

Sorry mate couldn't resist ??

15 minutes ago, Esca said:

I didn't want to go there. But now you mentioned it........ ?

 

?

[Guest stevo]

Just now, Ttfjlc said:

Sorry mate couldn't resist ??

?

im a big boy mucker . and I certainly love a bit of banter .

[Salopian]

Could you do 10 or better still 25 shots of each and compare please?

I have my doubts as to if overboring is worth all the trouble .

[Guest stevo]

7 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Could you do 10 or better still 25 shots of each and compare please?

I have my doubts as to if overboring is worth all the trouble .

If I’m totally honest with you ..... nope , as I said I only pattern for gun fit personally, I don’t think 25 shots will tell you anything  on paper .

if you really want to see for yourself , go test one . 

I will say that my DT 11s do the job better than anything else I’ve shot . 

When you say you have you doubts about over boring , what is it your hoping to get from it ? 

What does it mean to you ? 

Edited June 29, 2018 by stevo

[Salopian]

Stevo,

 To answer your questions :-    It is standard practice to evaluate patterns from the average of ten shots , not just one .

Neil Winston , an American technoid did extensive testing of numerous overbored barrels and produced graphs and charts to back up his research .

It showed no meaningful difference between overboring and the industry standard of 0.729" bore .

If overboring is so wonderful , how do we explain the exceptional performance of 20 & 28 bores using same loads as a 12 bore performing equally as well and in certain cases even better?

At the end of the day it's a tube with a constriction throwing an ounce of lead into the sky !

I have witnessed exceptional Game shots shooting 20's & 28's outperforming their friends using a 12 bore .

I don't think anyone as persevered with a 20 or 28 in clay shooting so we may never know the real answers .

But finally if a DT11 is so wonderful , why haven't other manufacturers gone down this route ?

[Guest cookoff013]

Use a huge range of shells, 32-36g.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

20 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

Use a huge range of shells, 32-36g.

Limited to 28 gramme in competitions!

[Gordon R]

Quote

But finally if a DT11 is so wonderful , why haven't other manufacturers gone down this route ?

A fair number have done. My gripe with over-bored barrels is that they don't clean as easily as normal. I appreciate there is very little difference in bore size, but the phosphor bronze brushes don't seem to scrub as well in over-bored.

[Hamster]

4 hours ago, Salopian said:

Stevo,

 To answer your questions :-    It is standard practice to evaluate patterns from the average of ten shots , not just one .

Neil Winston , an American technoid did extensive testing of numerous overbored barrels and produced graphs and charts to back up his research .

It showed no meaningful difference between overboring and the industry standard of 0.729" bore .

If overboring is so wonderful , how do we explain the exceptional performance of 20 & 28 bores using same loads as a 12 bore performing equally as well and in certain cases even better?

At the end of the day it's a tube with a constriction throwing an ounce of lead into the sky !

I have witnessed exceptional Game shots shooting 20's & 28's outperforming their friends using a 12 bore .

I don't think anyone as persevered with a 20 or 28 in clay shooting so we may never know the real answers .

But finally if a DT11 is so wonderful , why haven't other manufacturers gone down this route ?

? 

I've never understood what over or under boring is meant to do anyway, both those patterns look excellent and neither is going to cost you a missed bird in the real world. If we want denser patterns we just put a tighter choke in, if we want more even we can experiment with shells and different choke brands (not that once we have achieved our "more even" it means a damn thing in practice !).

I've shot all kinds of barrel profiles and misses are always down to technique where distance and density are a match for the clay in question, you can start to get poor breaks and misses once you go beyond the sort of range a certain choke was optimised for, this is true for over or under bored. 

[wymberley]

Agree with Salopian.

I've looked and looked but still can't tell as you keep having to switch from one to t'other. To be more sure you'd need them side by side and to be absolutely certain you'd need to count the strikes, but it seems to me that the distribution in the first photo has a steeper 'bell' than in the second. In which case, you could debate that as the outer portion of the pattern is never sufficiently dense to do the business, the first is the better clay breaker. But I emphasis that as I can't tell as above, I'm not too sure.

[Guest cookoff013]

I know its limited to 28g in clay pigeon world but not physics.

[wigeon jim]

You will get around 100 fps faster cartridge using an over bored barrel,.   Jim.

[Salopian]

A good point Wigeon Jim , but when the manufacturer lies or misquotes velocity does 100fps really matter when the clay is only travelling at 59fps and you have a surplus of around a 1000fps in the cartridge.

[Guest stevo]

8 minutes ago, Salopian said:

A good point Wigeon Jim , but when the manufacturer lies or misquotes velocity does 100fps really matter when the clay is only travelling at 59fps and you have a surplus of around a 1000fps in the cartridge.

What gun/guns do you use for clays 

 

[Guest stevo]

Is that better ? 

4 hours ago, cookoff013 said:

I know its limited to 28g in clay pigeon world but not physics.

as these are comp shells through a comp gun thats only every going to be used for comps . nothing else really matters .