English Sporting

[Scully]

At a recent informal shoot I noticed some shooters starting ‘gun up’ prior to calling for the bird.

Depending on the target I’ve always found this kills my swing and prefer to address the bird by reacting to the target. What are the definitive rules regarding starting with a pre mounted gun for ES? Does it matter? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

You may mount, adjust and remount for ESP, you may not do any of that for FITASC SPORTING.

Of course if it is an informal shoot, people can do whatever they want as long as they are safe.

As you say it may well kill the swing and takes up time, but as novices may need to prepare it is allowed.

[Hamster]

There are no rule restrictions regarding pre-mounting in ESP but in practice most experienced shooters prefer variations of an unmounted stance, that said there are definitely certain presentations that benefit from having the gun already in the shoulder usually to prevent excess swing speed and therefore lead. Examples include high quartering targets that are being missed in front or spot shooting going away rabbits where holding the gun out in the kill zone and waiting sometimes helps. 

[Westward]

Quite a lot of ESP shooters hold the gun high but not quite in the shoulder. From behind it looks to be fully pre-mounted, but if you watch the shooter rather than the target you often see a small movement of an inch or 2 as they bring the gun in to shooting position and perhaps tuck the elbows in bit.

[Scully]

Sorry gents, forgot I'd started this thread! I've seen both beginners and experienced shooters start with gun up, and all variations on a theme. My own preference is to start with gun down and mount as soon as I say pull. Admittedly a lot depends on the button man/woman being on the ball with this technique, and pressing the button immediately, but I find a gun up start not only kills my swing but spoils my view of the targets initially. Each to their own. Thanks all. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

Sorry gents, forgot I'd started this thread! I've seen both beginners and experienced shooters start with gun up, and all variations on a theme. My own preference is to start with gun down and mount as soon as I say pull. Admittedly a lot depends on the button man/woman being on the ball with this technique, and pressing the button immediately, but I find a gun up start not only kills my swing but spoils my view of the targets initially. Each to their own. Thanks all. 

Is it an age thing?

[Scully]

4 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Is it an age thing?

👍 Very likely. 

[Westley]

22 hours ago, Scully said:

👍   

  

 

22 hours ago, Scully said:

👍 Very likely. 

So is mounting the gun before the target appears   !

 In my younger days I shot all disciplines, except trap, with the gun out of my shoulder. Since having a couple of minor strokes and a failed shoulder operation, I too now find that I call "Pull" and start to mount the gun. On certain targets, such as springing teal, low, fast driven or general 'going away' targets, I pre mount the gun. Some days it works and some days it don't. I have just learned to live with it,  after all,  going out and shooting badly beats the hell of not going out at all !   

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

  

 

So is mounting the gun before the target appears   !

 In my younger days I shot all disciplines, except trap, with the gun out of my shoulder. Since having a couple of minor strokes and a failed shoulder operation, I too now find that I call "Pull" and start to mount the gun. On certain targets, such as springing teal, low, fast driven or general 'going away' targets, I pre mount the gun. Some days it works and some days it don't. I have just learned to live with it,  after all,  going out and shooting badly beats the hell of not going out at all !   

Not sure what you mean, but if the button man does his job properly there is a split second before the clay appears. Any delay and I'm scuppered as it would mean I've started gun up. If said button man isn't on the ball I'll wait until I hear the trap or see the bird, which ever happens first. 

[Westley]

19 hours ago, Scully said:

Not sure what you mean, but if the button man does his job properly there is a split second before the clay appears. Any delay and I'm scuppered as it would mean I've started gun up. If said button man isn't on the ball I'll wait until I hear the trap or see the bird, which ever happens first. 

There are some stands where the view of the clay is not instant, sometimes on a tower set behind trees, or a clay appearing in a clearing through the trees. When I was younger, I would wait until the target appeared, then with the barrels moving with the target, bring the stock to cheek and shoulder, then fire. With age I have developed a (sometimes bad) habit of mounting the gun, after calling for the target, BUT,  before it actually appears. All due, I feel sure, to eyes and movements slowing down with age. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

There are some stands where the view of the clay is not instant, sometimes on a tower set behind trees, or a clay appearing in a clearing through the trees. When I was younger, I would wait until the target appeared, then with the barrels moving with the target, bring the stock to cheek and shoulder, then fire. With age I have developed a (sometimes bad) habit of mounting the gun, after calling for the target, BUT,  before it actually appears. All due, I feel sure, to eyes and movements slowing down with age. 

Ah, with you. Yes, there are some targets you just have to wait for, and with those there's always time to wait, with gun down. Practise and practise and more practise means economy of movement, which is not the same thing as speed. I once shot with Kevin Mayor and he was the slowest shooter I'd ever seen, except he wasn't. As I progressed I realised it was economy of movement; gives you all the time you need. 🙂As we both know, there is more to shooting than just shooting. 🙂

[grrclark]

If you can pre-mount and remove the variability of mounting badly then there is a good argument to say why not do that.

Having the gun just out the shoulder is much the same, it reduces the margin of error from say a lower gun hold as in fitasc sporting or olympic skeet.

Of course there is a compromise in having to start the swing with a dead gun or maybe even barrel watching if you have the gun in the shoulder too long.

For me at sporting it is a combination of both techniques depending on what the target does.

One of the most common faults I have seen for those who always pre-mount is having their hold point too close to the trap, they are then jumped by the target and the resulting big shove to get the dead gun moving then takes them either off line or builds too much gun speed and they swing past the bird.

[Westley]

Strangely enough, I still shoot English skeet 'gun down' without a problem.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 I once shot with Kevin Mayor and he was the slowest shooter I'd ever seen, except he wasn't.

I haven't shot on the same squad as Kevin, but shot against him a few times at Blackpool Gun Club and Ken Winstanley's ground at Abram. I have never seen anyone take so much time to shoot. He seems to leave the clays travelling forever, but that is why he has been European Champion and I haven't. I have also never seen anyone shoot with a more battered gun. The top lever on his old Miroku was assisted by an elastic band. Talking to him a couple of years ag at Blackpool - he hadn't let success go to his head. Top lad.

[Scully]

🙂 Can't recall the condition of his gun, but yes, can remember him seeming incredibly slow but not missing! Good to watch. 

[100milesaway]

On 03/10/2018 at 12:48, Gordon R said:

I haven't shot on the same squad as Kevin, but shot against him a few times at Blackpool Gun Club and Ken Winstanley's ground at Abram. I have never seen anyone take so much time to shoot. He seems to leave the clays travelling forever, but that is why he has been European Champion and I haven't. I have also never seen anyone shoot with a more battered gun. The top lever on his old Miroku was assisted by an elastic band. Talking to him a couple of years ag at Blackpool - he hadn't let success go to his head. Top lad.

Yes Kevins elastic band was legendary. I shot with him once at Catton Hall, on the right hand side of the woods was a slow incomer, he took aim, left it to the very last second and an identical bit of clay hit my hand four times on the trot. That my friends is precision  shooting. A very talented lad.

 from Auntie.🙂