14 million in poverty

[Mice!]

It's all well and good saying the rich are too rich, its a shame for the poor, so what's the plan ? Let Corbyn in? Everyone gets £10 an hour? Paid for how? Everything would just go up in price.

If your only on minimum wage then you need a better job, which is easier said than done when you need to pay the bills and put food on the table.

I'm sure the rich have always been rich?

[Hamster]

19 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

I want to live in Chelsea and be driven to my private helicopter in a chauffeured Bentley. But alas I can't afford to. Am I in poverty. 

How relevant, 🙄 .

 

40 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

Or she could do what a lot do and go into agency work earning £20+ per hour. So over the year would raise her income to around 50k.this is happening on a massive scale the NHS pays out millions each year to agency staff. There is a 73 year old consultant phsyciatrist on the books through agency at our local hospital on £260 per hour can't drive so home visits have to be done by taxi. We have a screwed up system that's for sure. 

Sadly there is a huge amount of truth behind this, I have it from a reliable source that the NHS is being milked beyond belief by some of its own staff who know exactly what buttons to press, when and for how long and then repeat the process with a suitable pause to keep things inside the rules.  They will happily do this knowing that at times their void has to be filled by agency staff who charge the NHS stupendous fees. These same people will of course be moaning about our troubles all being down to immigration. 

7 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It's all well and good saying the rich are too rich, its a shame for the poor, so what's the plan ? Let Corbyn in? Everyone gets £10 an hour? Paid for how? Everything would just go up in price.

If your only on minimum wage then you need a better job, which is easier said than done when you need to pay the bills and put food on the table.

I'm sure the rich have always been rich?

Cutting out tax loopholes and forcing multi nationals to pay ALL due taxes with no fancy excuses would be a start. 

International agreements on what constitutes reasonable compensation to heads of public business and CEO's of utilities would be another, it won't happen of course because as I have mentioned earlier the collusion is deliberate and organised at the highest level. They call it lobbying but it's no more than legalised corruption. 

A complete re-think on this business of buy to let or buy to invest also wouldn't go amiss. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Hamster

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It's all well and good saying the rich are too rich, its a shame for the poor, so what's the plan ? Let Corbyn in? Everyone gets £10 an hour?

Im sure I read some labour policy of minimum £20 an hour wage !

 

9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Cutting out tax loopholes and forcing multi nationals to pay ALL due taxes with no fancy excuses would be a start. 

International agreements on what constitutes reasonable compensation to heads of public business and CEO's of utilities would be another, it won't happen of course because as I have mentioned earlier the collusion is deliberate and organised at the highest level. They call it lobbying but it's no more than legalised corruption. 

A complete re-think on this business of buy to let or buy to invest also wouldn't go amiss. 

Couldnt agree more, so lets elect a government thats going to do that,   good luck.

Because if you think labour are going to right the wrongs, well , weve had labour governments on a regular basis, and guess what ?
Theyve never done it.

And thats because they will say ANYTHING to get elected, and then pretty much carry on the status quo, and the system wins EVERY time.
At least the tories tell you straight , 'we will help the rich more than the poor, but the rich need the poor to work for them, so it wont be too bad'.
See this 14 million in poverty thing for what it is , a sound bite, politically driven to cause division ,at a time when we need unity.
 

[Mice!]

9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Cutting out tax loopholes and forcing multi nationals to pay ALL due taxes with no fancy excuses would be a start. 

That would be great, but it wouldn't help those on minimum wage, and certainly wouldn't affect people on benefits that don't want to work.

The system has been wrong for a long time, how can it be right that your better off not working than working?

I grew up with my dad working, but due to ill health and disability he stopped so mum started working, minimum wage job, obviously things weren't as dear then and they claimed disability allowance for dad, but they didn't gripe how it wasn't fair, we were brought up wanting to work not sponge off the state.

[Retsdon]

The WTC scheme is a scandalous system too. Why should tax payers subsidize the wage bill of private employers? There might be grounds for supporting small businesses or start ups, but then the onus should be on these businesses themselves to prove  that they're unable to pay a proper wage - and  then they should have to claim the money not the employee. That way, they're on the hook for any overpayments -  as they should be...after all they're the ones benefiting from the subsidy. 

This business of allowing (encouraging even) wholesale underpayment for work done is nothing but a racket and a fraud on taxpayers. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

The WTC scheme is a scandalous system too. Why should tax payers subsidize the wage bill of private employers? There might be grounds for supporting small businesses or start ups, but then the onus should be on these businesses themselves to prove  that they're unable to pay a proper wage - and  then they should have to claim the money not the employee. That way, they're on the hook for any overpayments -  as they should be...after all they're the ones benefiting from the subsidy. 

This business of allowing (encouraging even) wholesale underpayment for work done is nothing but a racket and a fraud on taxpayers. 

How strange, swap a few of those words around a bit , and it virtually describes to a tee the EU s CAP system 🤣

[Newbie to this]

22 minutes ago, Hamster said:

These same people will of course be moaning about our troubles all being down to immigration. 

That is one hell of an assumption. Do you know all of these people personally and are they open in their views on immigration?

[bostonmick]

17 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

And there's the problem. Who benefits from this subsidized labour?

Apart from giving the worker some self respect it would relieve the taxpayer of having to support them totally. There is a big misconception that all jobs that pay minimum wage are by super rich large profit business but a lot are low turnover small businesses. And to quote a cliche but never the less true if some of those suffering poverty gave up their fags their scratchcards and sky TV they may find they have money for luxuries like food and clothing. Electric and gas.etc.

[12gauge82]

27 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It's all well and good saying the rich are too rich, its a shame for the poor, so what's the plan ? Let Corbyn in? Everyone gets £10 an hour? Paid for how? Everything would just go up in price.

If your only on minimum wage then you need a better job, which is easier said than done when you need to pay the bills and put food on the table.

I'm sure the rich have always been rich?

And that's the problem, I think it would be very naive to say there is not a huge problem in the western world with the distribution of wealth, that said, it would be impossible to solve it as a lone country, it would require a huge shift in the whole western world and I just don't see that happening, power and money would put a stop to it as it always has.

[stumfelter]

2 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

Ok so let's here your wonderful right wing logic with this scenario.

A girl leaves school and wants to be a nurse. She lives in Bromley and is now qualified and takes home £22000 a year, she has got married and is now looking for somewhere to live. What are her options as a 2 bed flat in Bromley costs in excess of £200 000. On her wage she can only borrow just over £90000.... A nurse. So what's your plan for this? Just kick every other member of society to the kerb as they aren't fortunate enough to be earning the 100k a year needed to live in the South East? 

Before long you won't have any Nurses, Policemen, Fireman, Soldiers, Cleaners, Teachers. And it's attitudes like yours and blaming the left for an inequality problem that's been brewing. But I guess your ok so crack on and blame the left and the poor. 

What does her husband do?

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, bostonmick said:

There is a big misconception that all jobs that pay minimum wage are by super rich large profit business but a lot are low turnover small businesses.

I realize that. But it makes no difference to my point. The fact is that the moment the onus is on the employee to top up their own wage by claiming credits. That's wrong. If an employer is too small or too unprofitable to pay a living wage it should be up to them to claim support. I don't buy the argument that it would mean a lot of employers would shed labour. Most would find the extra money, and those that couldn't would put in claims themselves. Nobody is paying even a subsidized wage bill unless they have to.

[bostonmick]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I realize that. But it makes no difference to my point. The fact is that the moment the onus is on the employee to top up their own wage by claiming credits. That's wrong. If an employer is too small or too unprofitable to pay a living wage it should be up to them to claim support. I don't buy the argument that it would mean a lot of employers would shed labour. Most would find the extra money, and those that couldn't would put in claims themselves. Nobody is paying even a subsidized wage bill unless they have to.

And of course we all know the boss would hand over the money they claimed to the worker. 

[Hamster]

23 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

That is one hell of an assumption. Do you know all of these people personally and are they open in their views on immigration?

 👏 👍 Indeed it is and criticism duly accepted and noted but it was somewhat on purpose because it's no more  assumptive and ludicrous than : 

"but they didn't gripe how it wasn't fair, we were brought up wanting to work not sponge off the state"

which is the gist of an awful lot of what has come to define the responses to this thread and which you sadly failed to spot. 🙄 🤔

Edited November 17, 2018 by Hamster

[Retsdon]

Just now, bostonmick said:

And of course we all know the boss would hand over the money they claimed to the worker. 

They'd need to or face prosecution. These days everyone is paid through computerized payroll software. It wouldn't take five minutes to check - just like VAT.

 

[Hamster]

20 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

Apart from giving the worker some self respect it would relieve the taxpayer of having to support them totally. There is a big misconception that all jobs that pay minimum wage are by super rich large profit business but a lot are low turnover small businesses. And to quote a cliche but never the less true if some of those suffering poverty gave up their fags their scratchcards and sky TV they may find they have money for luxuries like food and clothing. Electric and gas.etc.

I'm a reasonable man, can you tell us the source of this assumption, we need to know how many you know and have interviewed to form this opinion, I know "Newbie to this" is also itching to find out. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Hamster

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, amateur said:

Bromley has always been an expensive place to live. However, were she to look a few miles away, within very easy commuting distance to Bromley, then there may well be other affordable places to live.

 

How does moving away from Bromley help anyway ? Surely that would entail higher travel costs and who says moving XX minutes away would mean they get to buy a house for what their mortgage lenders will lend them ? It's not exactly asking for a helicopter to Chelsea is it. 

[Retsdon]

21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

How strange, swap a few of those words around a bit , and it virtually describes to a tee the EU s CAP system 🤣

if your'e talking about set aside, it could be argued that there are environmental spin offs that benefit everyone. But you're right - it's mostly the very well off who mop up the gravy. But I don't imagine that's going to change after Brexit

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

And that's the problem, I think it would be very naive to say there is not a huge problem in the western world with the distribution of wealth, that said, it would be impossible to solve it as a lone country, it would require a huge shift in the whole western world and I just don't see that happening, power and money would put a stop to it as it always has.

Is it a problem ? 

When has there been a time, world wide , when this wasnt the way things have been?
Think of a time, a region, or a race, when there was true equality.
It never happened, maybe in some communist wet dream, but the reality of it is, when weve tried to level the playing field, its  usually ended up with a bloodbath, before eventually reverting back to the same old system.
And theres a reason for that, its because its a STABLE system, I dont like it or agree with it, but mans inherent ability to destroy himself is largely kept in check by it, we crave leaders.
So those leaders are going to exercise one of mans other less fragrant qualities, abuse of power.
We see it EVERY DAY , we moan about it, and dream of fixing it, then go back to sleep and vote the next bunch in.
Rinse and repeat.

The difference, and this is what this debate is all about, is we believe WE live in this enlightened liberal generation, WE can fix these issues .
We wring our hands at the worlds injustices , allay our guilt with rhetoric , and promise ourselves that tomorrow we WILL do something about it.
Then we go back to sleep.

[bostonmick]

16 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I'm a reasonable man, can you tell us the source of this assumption, we need to know how many you know and have interviewed to form this opinion, I know "Newbie to this" is also itching to find out. 

 

I don't need to interview people. If you lived in boston you could see for yourself the town is full everyday of unemployed and single mothers. The jobcentre entrance is like a drinking and smoking club. On a recent trip to the local tip with a trailer load of waste I got talking to the weighbridge guy and he works 5.5 days a week for just under £400. A week has three children he is the only one in his street working but the only one who watches free view.all the others have one of them dishes on the wall. However I would not really count it as an interview. Just someone a bit peed over the system. Or do you think he should give up any self respect and join them

Edited November 17, 2018 by bostonmick

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It never happened, maybe in some communist wet dream, but the reality of it is, when weve tried to level the playing field, its  usually ended up with a bloodbath, before eventually reverting back to the same old system.

That's not true. Before they mucked it up by letting in swarms of aliens the Scandinavian countries probably had it as right as it can be. There's absolutely no economic or social reason why one man doing his work should be wondering where his next meal is coming from,  while another is wondering where his second holiday home should be.

[bostonmick]

Funny really how so many comments on this subject by people who have thousands sitting in cabinets in guns. And spend large amounts on cartridges and round fees. After driving distances in their 4x4 and then maybe stop off for a meal on the way home. Or maybe you pay for a day's game shooting. I guess this is how you are able to be experts on poverty. 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

That's not true. Before they mucked it up by letting in swarms of aliens the Scandinavian countries probably had it as right as it can be. There's absolutely no economic or social reason why one man doing his work should be wondering where his next meal is coming from,  while another is wondering where his second holiday home should be.

Are you joking !?
So the 'aliens' werent just taking a more pro active action to redistribute the countrys wealth by 'migrating' there ? 🤣

Besides the fact that the Skandi countries 'had it right' because they had a good strong work ethic, very low unemployment, coupled with high taxes, that paid for excellent social schemes.
Lets see where those policies get them in 20 years, with a generation of imported people with none of those ethics ?
Very poor argument Retsdon.

[yod dropper]

2 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

But I guess your ok so crack on and blame the left and the poor. 

I'm okay. I'm also living in poverty by most of the definitions. I think a sense of proportion is missing, your extreme poverty is not nearly of the same magnitude as that of people around the world, such as those literally, as in actually, who are born on and live on the streets of say, India. A good test would be to see if places would readily be swapped. If not, then I don't think they can be the same. Perhaps, there is poverty, extreme poverty, really extreme poverty, even more extreme poverty than that through to the poorest of all.

2 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

Government sector workers have been on a pay freeze for the last 8 years.

Er, no. Below inflation perhaps but not a freeze. Family in 3 diverse areas of the public sector and there has been no pay freeze.

3 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

How do you come up with the fact that wages have risen?

I'll take the left wing Guardian as my source if that's okay. 3.1% in the last 12 months.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment

3 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

with inflation through the roof

What are you on about? Here are the historical rates. 

http://inflation.iamkate.com/

That'll do for now.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, yod dropper said:

I'm okay. I'm also living in poverty by most of the definitions. I think a sense of proportion is missing, your extreme poverty is not nearly of the same magnitude as that of people around the world, such as those literally, as in actually, who are born on and live on the streets of say, India. A good test would be to see if places would readily be swapped. If not, then I don't think they can be the same. Perhaps, there is poverty, extreme poverty, really extreme poverty, even more extreme poverty than that through to the poorest of all.

Er, no. Below inflation perhaps but not a freeze. Family in 3 diverse areas of the public sector and there has been no pay freeze.

I'll take the left wing Guardian as my source if that's okay. 3.1% in the last 12 months.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment

What are you on about? Here are the historical rates. 

http://inflation.iamkate.com/

That'll do for now.

Thank you 👍
Saved me the job.

[Newbie to this]

On 12/11/2018 at 22:41, Hamster said:

Oh no Lloyd, do please disagree with them and critique away, just the odd bit of provable data with facts and figures would be nice though once in a while rather than I knew 3 brothers.............................

 

On 13/11/2018 at 10:41, Hamster said:

Where is your PROOF that the majority of the 14 million fall into that category ? Opinion is one thing proof is another. Here we have an official report that maintains this number of people fall into what is today defined as poverty or below levels, then we have people coming on with one liners, rhetorics and opinion suggesting they don't agree with those findings. 

 

On 13/11/2018 at 11:01, Hamster said:

No, I am just saying yours is just an opinion , of course reports too can be misleading, exaggerated, flawed, etc, but at that level they are based on certain statistical facts and figures so they'll be a tad more reliable than your average "opinion" based on ones immediate surroundings. 

 

On 13/11/2018 at 15:58, Hamster said:

  Based on what ? 👂

 

 

On 14/11/2018 at 10:51, Hamster said:

Yes very good post Lord Geordie, would have loved to have met your dad but I don't agree with the last phrase because of lack of proof or evidence : (But they are eclipsed by the sheer scale of those CLAIMING poverty).

 

17 hours ago, Hamster said:

I wish they could have balanced it up a bit by having someone from PigeonWatch provide the real probable poverty numbers.  😂

14 million my foot, they're all bleedin scroungers with big tellies and painted finger nails. 😂  💅   

 

41 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I'm a reasonable man, can you tell us the source of this assumption, we need to know how many you know and have interviewed to form this opinion, I know "Newbie to this" is also itching to find out. 

 

 

I was just merely following your lead