Tommy Robinson at the Oxford Union

[grrclark]

Why did I reply to a comment that was obviously provocative and pejorative in the use of language?

Dead easy to answer, wilful ignorance and stupidity winds me up.

[henry d]

11 hours ago, pinfireman said:

If you lived in a town or city in England, and not in the back of beyond, you would know that this is pretty accurate! I live near Rotherham,I,ve known about this years before anyone in the Press felt brave enough  to risk being called a waycist for blowing the whistle, and if you did the research, you would find a list of the towns and cities which have already  prosecuted abusers of this nature, and I can assure you that there are more than a few ongoing investigations elsewhere. Problem is, this is now commonplace news, and gets virtually no front page headlines....in fact, it,s lucky to get mentioned in the first 8 pages! When my late friend was working for social services, he attended a national conference in the South of England, and several people from other parts of the  UK talked about this, quietly, and not loud enough for management to hear.....they wanted to keep their jobs! Diversity?  That, was the buzzword,  do not upset the applecart!

Thank you, Besty!  You do not have to be a Lefty, to turn a blind eye....you just have to be someone who prefers "diversity" to reality!

 

On 28/11/2018 at 16:32, pinfireman said:

All the goodytwoshoes in this country turned a blind eye to this abuse!

Not just the goody two shoes who turned a blind eye to this then, both you and your friend also turned a blind eye. He was a professional and said nothing to keep his job, I say shame on him and he did not deserve to be called a professional and should have known that whistleblowers have special protection in law. You could have also alerted the authorities and press, but you did not and to me and possibly the law that makes you morally complicit.

I didn`t live in the back of beyond all my life, I had 12 years in the Plymouth area, 17 in the west end of Newcastle (Arthurs hill and the West road area mainly, check them out) and have friends and relatives country wide, so I am well, aware of what happens elsewhere.

[stumfelter]

12 hours ago, pinfireman said:

If you lived in a town or city in England, and not in the back of beyond, you would know that this is pretty accurate! I live near Rotherham,I,ve known about this years before anyone in the Press felt brave enough  to risk being called a waycist for blowing the whistle, and if you did the research, you would find a list of the towns and cities which have already  prosecuted abusers of this nature, and I can assure you that there are more than a few ongoing investigations elsewhere. Problem is, this is now commonplace news, and gets virtually no front page headlines....in fact, it,s lucky to get mentioned in the first 8 pages! When my late friend was working for social services, he attended a national conference in the South of England, and several people from other parts of the  UK talked about this, quietly, and not loud enough for management to hear.....they wanted to keep their jobs! Diversity?  That, was the buzzword,  do not upset the applecart!

Thank you, Besty!  You do not have to be a Lefty, to turn a blind eye....you just have to be someone who prefers "diversity" to reality!

You knew this was happening and you said nothing? I would've been shouting from the rooftops to anyone that would listen. Your friend and his colleagues behaviour as professional people is disgraceful!

[yod dropper]

Though it hasn't happened everywhere (okay, a throwaway comment) it has happened in a lot of places mostly by a particular profile. I don't know how many locations we're up to but in Rotherham alone the police are now investigating over 420 people. The EDL were onto this, the authorities chose to look the other way.

Unite against Fascism who were protesting his presence were fundamental in silencing the Channel 4 Dispatches on the issue. As were the police. That was back in 2005 and it wasn't until 2012 that action was taken once it had gained more prominence. Council staff did get sent on diversity training courses if they brought up that the men were pakistani and muslim, fathers did get arrested when they went to rescue their daughters. How would you feel if  that happened to you? Wouldn't you want to join the EDL? A lot happened in that 7 years that need not have done. EDL were also onto the likes of Anjem Choudray whilst being silenced themselves he was given platforms such as on the highly respected Newsnight.

A lot of this was to do with social cohesion, even recently the Labour MP Naz Shah re-tweeted that these girls should keep quiet for the sake of diversity. It wasn't just the EDL being 'racist', I'd love to know what people thought of the clips from Stacey Dooley's documentary. How would people have reacted if that were going on where they lived and it was going on in Luton. 

He often repeated what would happen if it were reversed, if it were white on Pakistani muslim girls, what if it were actual Nazis like he had run ins with who were carrying out what Choudray & co. were doing. The authorities did precious little. What would you have done? Walked on by?

If you think you've made up your mind about him and dare to be challenged I'd recommend you watch it.

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, stumfelter said:

You knew this was happening and you said nothing? I would've been shouting from the rooftops to anyone that would listen. Your friend and his colleagues behaviour as professional people is disgraceful!

My friend was "constructively" dismissed,  and  I DID shout it out, only to be called a racist, and threatened with legal action!  You have no idea of the culture that existed there, and how it pervaded the council, and South Yorkshire Police!  Those who spoke out were targetted. Even a demo in the town centre by the BNP (who I dislike!) almost failed to get noticed!  It took a national newspaper to finally blow the whistle.  Even today, and on here, there are people who fail to understand what was happening, it,s magnitude  of fear, and how the authorities stamped down on  the victims, and those who tried to expose the crimes!

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

 

Not just the goody two shoes who turned a blind eye to this then, both you and your friend also turned a blind eye. He was a professional and said nothing to keep his job, I say shame on him and he did not deserve to be called a professional and should have known that whistleblowers have special protection in law. You could have also alerted the authorities and press, but you did not and to me and possibly the law that makes you morally complicit.

I didn`t live in the back of beyond all my life, I had 12 years in the Plymouth area, 17 in the west end of Newcastle (Arthurs hill and the West road area mainly, check them out) and have friends and relatives country wide, so I am well, aware of what happens elsewhere.

You did NOT live in, or around Rotherham! You know NOTHING about what was happening there, and the cover ups, and the involvement of the council, and police! Nothing! My friend was threatened with legal action,  constructively dismissed!  and when I tried to spread the word, I was called a racist!  The authorities you mention were  covering all this up! As for the Press, do not make me laugh! A letter to them about  the actions of a "certain" group would have been totally ignored! Try reading the full report on Rotherham!  As for whistleblowers having special protection in law, this was 1995 / 6....................whistleblowers were treated worse than perpetrators!  There have now been prosecutions in Rochdale, Newcastle (where you were), Derby, Carlisle, Peterborough, Luton, Bradford, Keighley, Oxford, Oldham and half a dozen more! There are ongoing investigations in Bolton and Sheffield! There are still investigations  going on in Rotherham.  Senior police have lost their jobs over this. And you try to blame me for not  making an impression back then....pathetic!

Edited December 1, 2018 by pinfireman
spelling

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, yod dropper said:

Though it hasn't happened everywhere (okay, a throwaway comment) it has happened in a lot of places mostly by a particular profile. I don't know how many locations we're up to but in Rotherham alone the police are now investigating over 420 people. The EDL were onto this, the authorities chose to look the other way.

Unite against Fascism who were protesting his presence were fundamental in silencing the Channel 4 Dispatches on the issue. As were the police. That was back in 2005 and it wasn't until 2012 that action was taken once it had gained more prominence. Council staff did get sent on diversity training courses if they brought up that the men were pakistani and muslim, fathers did get arrested when they went to rescue their daughters. How would you feel if  that happened to you? Wouldn't you want to join the EDL? A lot happened in that 7 years that need not have done. EDL were also onto the likes of Anjem Choudray whilst being silenced themselves he was given platforms such as on the highly respected Newsnight.

A lot of this was to do with social cohesion, even recently the Labour MP Naz Shah re-tweeted that these girls should keep quiet for the sake of diversity. It wasn't just the EDL being 'racist', I'd love to know what people thought of the clips from Stacey Dooley's documentary. How would people have reacted if that were going on where they lived and it was going on in Luton. 

He often repeated what would happen if it were reversed, if it were white on Pakistani muslim girls, what if it were actual Nazis like he had run ins with who were carrying out what Choudray & co. were doing. The authorities did precious little. What would you have done? Walked on by?

If you think you've made up your mind about him and dare to be challenged I'd recommend you watch it.

Thank you, Yod.............

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, henry d said:

both you and your friend also turned a blind eye. He was a professional and said nothing to keep his job, I say shame on him and he did not deserve to be called a professional and should have known that whistleblowers have special protection in law

I take it you didn't read this bit then ?

 my late best pal worked for the Social Services dept there, and when he raised this tragedy in 1995 (2 years BEFORE anyone else) he was pushed out.! Told not to rock the boat, as diversity was more important!   

[grrclark]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I take it you didn't read this bit then ?

 my late best pal worked for the Social Services dept there, and when he raised this tragedy in 1995 (2 years BEFORE anyone else) he was pushed out.! Told not to rock the boat, as diversity was more important!   

But what did he do after he chose to leave?

Not just talking about this subject specifically, but as in this and so many others, there are many people who bleat on about how disgraceful it is that nobody says or does anything, then go on to say that when they did say something nobody listened or they met some resistance so they stopped trying.

Levelling criticism about others for not doing enough, but when it got difficult they gave up too.  If folk are going to criticise the commitment and courage of others in not being prepared to fight then they have to be prepared to fight too.

If you feel so strongly and have the courage of your convictions then stand up for what you believe in.  If you’re not prepared to because it is too difficult then you are not allowed to criticise others for doing the same.

If it matters so much then you find a way to fight.

The truth is for all those who said it was too difficult or too hard for then to fight the establishment then it didn’t matter enough to them either.

I didn’t bother speaking to the press because they would do nothing, i didn’t bother reporting it because I would be called racist, what that means is I didn’t bother because it was too difficult for me and it didn’t matter enough in my own life to be worth all the hassle.

That’s actually OK, we can’t fight every fight and we have to pick and choose, but don’t hurl rocks at people who made the same choice.  Comments like all goodytwoshoers did nothing, well if you knew and you stopped trying then include yourself in your own criticism, because it didn’t matter enough to you either.

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I take it you didn't read this bit then ?

 my late best pal worked for the Social Services dept there, and when he raised this tragedy in 1995 (2 years BEFORE anyone else) he was pushed out.! Told not to rock the boat, as diversity was more important!   

Sadly, if an organisation wants you out, it will either get you out, or make things so difficult in that you leave anyway.  You have to be VERY thick skinned and determined to stay in when the organisation wants you out.  It is one of the 'legal protections' that doesn't really work.

[yod dropper]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

But what did he do after he chose to leave?

Not just talking about this subject specifically, but as in this and so many others, there are many people who bleat on about how disgraceful it is that nobody says or does anything, then go on to say that when they did say something nobody listened or they met some resistance so they stopped trying.

If you know anything about these cases you'll know lots of people did try to do things but you'll also know both the police and social services chose to not just ignore but actively suppress what was going on. You'll also know that that the former MP Ann Cryer was told to keep quiet about FGM and underage marriage under Blair's government. When you're faced with this level of resistance at that level of power, and the amount of people who tried but got nowhere, what else could they have done? It's a bit rich saying people don't try.

Edited December 1, 2018 by yod dropper

[henry d]

2 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Even a demo in the town centre by the BNP (who I dislike!) almost failed to get noticed!

Less than a dozen BNP members is hardly a demo, perhaps that is why it got so little press... beeb report

[sportsbob]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

Less than a dozen BNP members is hardly a demo, perhaps that is why it got so little press... beeb report

That will be the same Beeb that are currently suppressing the pro Brexit demos and exaggerating the Anti Brexit demos will it,  domt make me laugh.  

[Mungler]

I watched all the videos.

The Times journalist piece was interesting in that the turning point for them was the whistleblower who gave them the files / evidence they needed. Rotherham Council’s reaction was not an enquiry into the contents of the artclie but to start legal action to find out who was the whistleblower. That’s scary stuff right there - your house, your marriage, your liberty on the line right there. 

Thankfuly someone was brave enough to take that risk.

What’s disappointing for me is how the institutions (and the people working within them) escape justice - there’s a good few people in Rotherham Council, social services and the Police who should be behind bars.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

What’s disappointing for me is how the institutions (and the people working within them) escape justice - there’s a good few people in Rotherham Council, social services and the Police who should be behind bars.

I suspect there are a good few in Parliament who should be as well.

[grrclark]

Yod, i’m not denying the difficulty associated with being a whistleblower, Mungler highlighted it perfectly in his email, but some people thankfully did have the courage of their convictions and gave evidence to the press that do have a loud enough public voice to effect change.  Despite the protestation of Pinfireman earlier about the press, they obviously take listen to what they were being told and when given evidence they acted on it.

Without seeking to deny or trivialise the challenge for those who knew and wanted to speak out, if they stopped trying because the fight became too hard for them then they cannot criticise others for not fighting hard enough either.

To be absolutely clear i’m not criticising those who knew, but were not prepared to have the fight with the establishment; I know nothing about their circumstances or the individual consequences they faced when speaking out.

I am criticising those that knew, but didn’t fight to speak out, that have gone on to criticise others for not speaking out either.

Saying I knew, but it was too hard for me, does not give the right to criticise others for whom the fight was too hard too.

For those in a paid position of authority who knew yet still sanctioned turning a blind eye I have nothing than contempt for and they should face criminal proceedings.

As for Anne Cryer I didn’t know that and would need to see evidemce prior to commenting.

[yod dropper]

grrclark, I can see where you're coming from. My frustration is the climate and culture that has grown whereby you 'can't' speak out without reprisal or where you don't feel it worth it.

[Rewulf]

My point was Henry said something should have been said, it was, and no one wanted to know.

Now maybe the voices weren't loud enough ,maybe someone didn't want to lose their pension, they may even have been accused of inciting racial hatred with a possible prosecution threatened?

The only time this came out was when that many voices got too loud , they couldn't contain it any more. In the meantime the abuse continued.

To make it sound like the fault lies with someone who DID say something but didn't follow it through, and ignore the ones who brushed it under the carpet, or wilfully ignored it for the sake of diversity, is frankly bonkers .

[grrclark]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

The only time this came out was when that many voices got too loud , they couldn't contain it any more. In the meantime the abuse continued.

To make it sound like the fault lies with someone who DID say something but didn't follow it through, and ignore the ones who brushed it under the carpet, or wilfully ignored it for the sake of diversity, is frankly bonkers .

I don’t believe anybody is conflating things in the manner you suggest.

Without putting words in Henry’s mouth he said the comments about ALL dogooders ignoring what went on and it happens in EVERY town was nonsense and it absolutely is.

It’s not isolated to Rotheram for sure and there were some who said nothing, but that is very different to ALL and EVERY.

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I don’t believe anybody is conflating things in the manner you suggest.

Without putting words in Henry’s mouth he said the comments about ALL dogooders ignoring what went on and it happens in EVERY town was nonsense and it absolutely is.

It’s not isolated to Rotheram for sure and there were some who said nothing, but that is very different to ALL and EVERY.

Henry said the man did nothing .

Clearly not true.

This is what I'm talking about, nothing else.

[pinfireman]

6 hours ago, grrclark said:

But what did he do after he chose to leave?

Not just talking about this subject specifically, but as in this and so many others, there are many people who bleat on about how disgraceful it is that nobody says or does anything, then go on to say that when they did say something nobody listened or they met some resistance so they stopped trying.

Levelling criticism about others for not doing enough, but when it got difficult they gave up too.  If folk are going to criticise the commitment and courage of others in not being prepared to fight then they have to be prepared to fight too.

If you feel so strongly and have the courage of your convictions then stand up for what you believe in.  If you’re not prepared to because it is too difficult then you are not allowed to criticise others for doing the same.

If it matters so much then you find a way to fight.

The truth is for all those who said it was too difficult or too hard for then to fight the establishment then it didn’t matter enough to them either.

I didn’t bother speaking to the press because they would do nothing, i didn’t bother reporting it because I would be called racist, what that means is I didn’t bother because it was too difficult for me and it didn’t matter enough in my own life to be worth all the hassle.

That’s actually OK, we can’t fight every fight and we have to pick and choose, but don’t hurl rocks at people who made the same choice.  Comments like all goodytwoshoers did nothing, well if you knew and you stopped trying then include yourself in your own criticism, because it didn’t matter enough to you either.

So one person tries to inform  a Press that does not want to hear.....A large  Council heavily involved determined not to  let this issue see the light of day, a police force that knew what was going on, and turned a blind eye,  and you expect a result?  It,s taken YEARS for the cover ups to be exposed (and it,s still ongoing!) and it took a national right/centre newspaper to finally break down the barrier of silence!

I find it strange how all you keyboard warriors, self-righteous to a man, have failed to spare a word for the victims, or condemnation of both the perpetrators, the Councillors, the higher management in Social Services, and the Police! 

By the way, do you know what all the towns and cities who have had gangs already  brought to justice, have in common?All Labour councils!

6 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sadly, if an organisation wants you out, it will either get you out, or make things so difficult in that you leave anyway.  You have to be VERY thick skinned and determined to stay in when the organisation wants you out.  It is one of the 'legal protections' that doesn't really work.

Thank you, on behalf of my pal. His wife worked for the council, in another dept, and it was made clear to him that she would find her job "redundant"..........

Anne Cryer, a good Labour MP, spent a couple of years trying to bring this to the attention of the Press, Police and Parliament!  If she could not succeed, what chance did we have? We tried, which is more than many others did!

5 hours ago, yod dropper said:

If you know anything about these cases you'll know lots of people did try to do things but you'll also know both the police and social services chose to not just ignore but actively suppress what was going on. You'll also know that that the former MP Ann Cryer was told to keep quiet about FGM and underage marriage under Blair's government. When you're faced with this level of resistance at that level of power, and the amount of people who tried but got nowhere, what else could they have done? It's a bit rich saying people don't try.

Thank you!

4 hours ago, henry d said:

Less than a dozen BNP members is hardly a demo, perhaps that is why it got so little press... beeb report

But  the demo WAS reported, but not the reason for it!

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, sportsbob said:

That will be the same Beeb that are currently suppressing the pro Brexit demos and exaggerating the Anti Brexit demos will it,  domt make me laugh.  

Correct!

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

I watched all the videos.

The Times journalist piece was interesting in that the turning point for them was the whistleblower who gave them the files / evidence they needed. Rotherham Council’s reaction was not an enquiry into the contents of the artclie but to start legal action to find out who was the whistleblower. That’s scary stuff right there - your house, your marriage, your liberty on the line right there. 

Thankfuly someone was brave enough to take that risk.

What’s disappointing for me is how the institutions (and the people working within them) escape justice - there’s a good few people in Rotherham Council, social services and the Police who should be behind bars.

That is very true....I live in hope that one day they will be brought to justice!

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

Yod, i’m not denying the difficulty associated with being a whistleblower, Mungler highlighted it perfectly in his email, but some people thankfully did have the courage of their convictions and gave evidence to the press that do have a loud enough public voice to effect change.  Despite the protestation of Pinfireman earlier about the press, they obviously take listen to what they were being told and when given evidence they acted on it.

Without seeking to deny or trivialise the challenge for those who knew and wanted to speak out, if they stopped trying because the fight became too hard for them then they cannot criticise others for not fighting hard enough either.

To be absolutely clear i’m not criticising those who knew, but were not prepared to have the fight with the establishment; I know nothing about their circumstances or the individual consequences they faced when speaking out.

I am criticising those that knew, but didn’t fight to speak out, that have gone on to criticise others for not speaking out either.

Saying I knew, but it was too hard for me, does not give the right to criticise others for whom the fight was too hard too.

For those in a paid position of authority who knew yet still sanctioned turning a blind eye I have nothing than contempt for and they should face criminal proceedings.

As for Anne Cryer I didn’t know that and would need to see evidemce prior to commenting.

You still don,t get it, do you? Or perhaps do not want to..................the whistleblower gave the Times FILES! Proof! Not  hearsay, which is what I was told my story was! EVIDENCE!  They gave evidence which was incontivertible! They then HAD to act! If an MP cannot get them to act, what chance has an ordinary person! Stop looking to blame someone....if you need to blame someone, to feel better, blame the  government of Blair, which made any comment about anyone not born here, a "racist" comment!

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

My point was Henry said something should have been said, it was, and no one wanted to know.

Now maybe the voices weren't loud enough ,maybe someone didn't want to lose their pension, they may even have been accused of inciting racial hatred with a possible prosecution threatened?

The only time this came out was when that many voices got too loud , they couldn't contain it any more. In the meantime the abuse continued.

To make it sound like the fault lies with someone who DID say something but didn't follow it through, and ignore the ones who brushed it under the carpet, or wilfully ignored it for the sake of diversity, is frankly bonkers .

Thank you!

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

I don’t believe anybody is conflating things in the manner you suggest.

Without putting words in Henry’s mouth he said the comments about ALL dogooders ignoring what went on and it happens in EVERY town was nonsense and it absolutely is.

It’s not isolated to Rotheram for sure and there were some who said nothing, but that is very different to ALL and EVERY.

So far, it,s happened in more than a dozen places, and there are enquiries going on in at least another dozen!  At the moment, our three largest cities have been remarkably quiet about this, but if you think it has not happened in them,  you are dreaming! Whilst all, and every, town or city may be an exaggeration, I am willing to bet that  at least another 12 cases  come to court in the next 3 years...what odds will you give me?

[Mungler]

I have to say I’m amazed that a number of left wing London boroughs are not more visible in this fiasco. 

We’ve had vote rigging and organised council infiltration by the same demographic and just on probability alone I can’t believe that this is just ‘a Northern thing’....

I do wonder what world we live in. I remember Dawkins writing about his time in the 70’s and 80’s  - they’d just set on the path to unlocking DNA and particle theory and the intellectuals of the time really thought that science would logically bring about the end of religion. And yet here we are importing ‘the stone age’ and doing all we can to foster, protect and support it.

I digress....

[grrclark]

Pinfireman, I am not blaming anyone other than those in authority who allowed this behaviour to take place, I have said that rather explicitly in my posts.

I’m not revisiting what I said previously to try and highlight that to you as quite frankly I can’t be bothered, i’m fed up with having these sorts of discussions on PW and i’m a fool for letting myself get engaged in this one.

I see and recognise the problem for exactly what it was and is, which is a systemic failure of the eatablishment due to having a dangerously skewed agenda, but i’m going to leave it there.