No Jail for Moderate Crime Convictions

[henry d]

It hasn`t been well covered in the British press but I wonder what the thoughts are of those in favour of a more punitive system in regard to the recent jailing of a police officer, Jason Van Dyke, for the murder of Laquan McDonald.

Wiki story here, and newspaper account of the recent sentencing here.

The dash cam footage is here but is not nice but shows the brutality of what happened and how the police tried to cover it up>

 

[Rewulf]

4 hours ago, henry d said:

It hasn`t been well covered in the British press but I wonder what the thoughts are of those in favour of a more punitive system in regard to the recent jailing of a police officer, Jason Van Dyke, for the murder of Laquan McDonald.

Wiki story here, and newspaper account of the recent sentencing here.

The dash cam footage is here but is not nice but shows the brutality of what happened and how the police tried to cover it up>

 

I'm not really sure of what this has to do with the thread? 

A trigger happy yank cop shoots dead a non compliant juvenile suspect with a weapon, happens all the time over there. 

The only difference is this time the cop got jail, 4 years later. 

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, henry d said:

It hasn`t been well covered in the British press but I wonder what the thoughts are of those in favour of a more punitive system in regard to the recent jailing of a police officer, Jason Van Dyke, for the murder of Laquan McDonald.

Wiki story here, and newspaper account of the recent sentencing here.

The dash cam footage is here but is not nice but shows the brutality of what happened and how the police tried to cover it up>

 

I don't know enough about the case to comment, the video certainly doesn't look good for the cops use of force, but then I haven't heard his side of the story, since he's been found guilty I can only assume that his actions were disproportionate to the threat and that is why he has been jailed, although it may not be totally clear cut, hence why he's received a comparatively short sentence for wrongfully taking a person's life, but that's just my speculation, I wasn't on the jury that convicted him. 

[henry d]

They called for a taser team but van Dyke wasn`t having any of it, he was eventually found out to be a racist and had numerous complaints against him for violence and racial comments, so he shot Laquan. The first shot dropped him and he fired another 15 to make sure, then his colleagues (none of which shot a round) lied about Laquan`s behaviour and seem to have removed the Burger King video. The city of Chicago refused 15 requests for the dashcam footage after reports of the autopsy, the police reports and eyewitness reports did not match up. Thats the general gist of it.

My question would be how does something like this happen in a county where there is full life sentencing, but no death penalty ( it was abolished after it condemned 13 men) and people here seem to know that a more punitive system would solve the problem of criminality in the UK. I am sure that van Dyke is spending the 3 or so years he (probably) will spend in jail looking over his shoulder and wondering where and when the first attempt at his life will come from.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

They called for a taser team but van Dyke wasn`t having any of it, he was eventually found out to be a racist and had numerous complaints against him for violence and racial comments, so he shot Laquan. The first shot dropped him and he fired another 15 to make sure, then his colleagues (none of which shot a round) lied about Laquan`s behaviour and seem to have removed the Burger King video. The city of Chicago refused 15 requests for the dashcam footage after reports of the autopsy, the police reports and eyewitness reports did not match up. Thats the general gist of it.

My question would be how does something like this happen in a county where there is full life sentencing, but no death penalty ( it was abolished after it condemned 13 men) and people here seem to know that a more punitive system would solve the problem of criminality in the UK. I am sure that van Dyke is spending the 3 or so years he (probably) will spend in jail looking over his shoulder and wondering where and when the first attempt at his life will come from.

Again I can't make an accurate judgement, if some of the claims you've made are correct, the judge would need some very good reasons to only give out the sentence he did, but since I haven't heard the officers account and I wasn't at the court to hear both sides of the case, I really don't know, personally I would only have the death sentence for specific crimes and I think a higher standard of proof should apply, something like, "beyond any doubt" or something of that nature. 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

They called for a taser team but van Dyke wasn`t having any of it, he was eventually found out to be a racist and had numerous complaints against him for violence and racial comments, so he shot Laquan. The first shot dropped him and he fired another 15 to make sure, then his colleagues (none of which shot a round) lied about Laquan`s behaviour and seem to have removed the Burger King video. The city of Chicago refused 15 requests for the dashcam footage after reports of the autopsy, the police reports and eyewitness reports did not match up. Thats the general gist of it.

So he shot Laquan because hes a racist, nothing to do  with the fact he was walking up the middle of the road with a knife in his hands ?

You do realise that up until this point Van Dyke had done nothing wrong in the broad sense, he ordered the man to drop the weapon, the man refused, he got shot.
The major difference in this 'crime' is once Laquan was shot and subdued (No longer a threat) Van Dyke decided to empty his mag into him.
Which is why the prosecution took its strange 16 x battery course, which was subsequently thrown out.

2 hours ago, henry d said:

 and people here seem to know that a more punitive system would solve the problem of criminality in the UK.

Im still not sure how this means anything in UK law, all I can say is prosecuting cops for doing their job is not conducive to operating and maintaining an effective police force, with FORCE being the operative word here.
If criminals have no fear of the police, then you might as well not bother, and let civilians carry out their own crime control/defence.

In the US, there is some onus on the public to protect themselves, especially when you have well armed and some sometimes deranged criminal assailants ,
Like wise the police over there have a set of rules of engagement, that may sometimes seem barbaric to us gentle Brits !
They could try a gentler approach, with softer punishments, but then you would have less applicants to police jobs, and less deterrent to keep crime at bay ?

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

The dash cam footage is here but is not nice but shows the brutality of what happened and how the police tried to cover it up>

Seems common in America, some of the American Cop vids I've seen are worse than the one above, it does make me wonder if they got away with it.

They do have a 21ft rule thought, & he was under that distance, but shot 16 times when especially the first one dropped him was OTT.

 

[la bala]

Well one things for sure, we wont be building new prisons, think of the extra cost of putting a phone in every cell.

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

They do have a 21ft rule thought, & he was under that distance, but shot 16 times when especially the first one dropped him was OTT.

Of course it was OTT, from the footage weve seen , being there might have have been a completely different story.

16 shots, maybe 14 or 15 of them whilst hes on the ground, excessive ? But then they are trained to keep firing till the danger to themselves or others has passed, did Van Dyke still feel endangered ? Or did he just want to keep pumping bullets into the black lad because hes a 'racist' , despite knowing the multiple cops and cameras around him would give evidence and footage ?

Why didnt Laquan drop the knife ? Why did he have a knife, and why were the police there ?
We seem to forget all about that, because a trigger happy cop shot him 16 times.

Im sure the kid was a decent person ect, especially when he wasnt off his nuts on PCP and robbing peoples cars, and threatening the police with knives whilst walking down the middle of the highway.

If anyone thinks US cops treat suspects with a heavier hand than here, try marching down a street brandishing a knife towards some ARV cops, and see what happens.
They might not shoot you 16 times, what with the cost of bullets ect, and cutbacks, but you will be no less dead.

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Of course it was OTT, from the footage weve seen , being there might have have been a completely different story.

16 shots, maybe 14 or 15 of them whilst hes on the ground, excessive ? But then they are trained to keep firing till the danger to themselves or others has passed, did Van Dyke still feel endangered ? Or did he just want to keep pumping bullets into the black lad because hes a 'racist' , despite knowing the multiple cops and cameras around him would give evidence and footage ?

Why didnt Laquan drop the knife ? Why did he have a knife, and why were the police there ?
We seem to forget all about that, because a trigger happy cop shot him 16 times.

Im sure the kid was a decent person ect, especially when he wasnt off his nuts on PCP and robbing peoples cars, and threatening the police with knives whilst walking down the middle of the highway.

If anyone thinks US cops treat suspects with a heavier hand than here, try marching down a street brandishing a knife towards some ARV cops, and see what happens.
They might not shoot you 16 times, what with the cost of bullets ect, and cutbacks, but you will be no less dead.

Good Post.

 

I'm not saying for a second this is what happened, but now imagine watching that video with the knowledge he had say a bomb vest on and was intent on setting it off, the cops actions may have been totally reasonable if there was intelligence to back up his actions (obviously he was jailed so broke the law in this case, but it shows how a change in circumstances not always aparant to bystanders can completley change the perspective of a shooting which is what Rewulf alludes to in part of his post) 

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Of course it was OTT, from the footage weve seen , being there might have have been a completely different story.

It was right in front of the dash cam, what could be different, he shot him 16 times, (not maybe 14 or 15),

was it excessive, my point of view yes.

 

did Van Dyke still feel endangered ?

(macdonald attacked the officer) ......didn't happen.

(van dyke fears for his life & back pedals) ..............again didn't happen.

(According to police reports mc donald tries to get up,
still pointing the knife at Van Dyke) .......he was down on the first shot, & again didn't happen.

Obviously something to hide because all the above is bull.

I couldn't give a FF either way, if you want to take a pop at someone get emailing the  Chicago Police Department & vent your spleen there.

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I couldn't give a FF either way, if you want to take a pop at someone get emailing the  Chicago Police Department & vent your spleen there.

I think youve completely misinterpreted my post(s), not having a go at anyone, and as Ive said I dont think its got anything to do with this thread.

Henry insinuated that Van Dyke did it because hes a racist, he might well be, but Im sure that many of the cops he works with on a daily basis are POC, so where are they all confirming his 'obvious ' racism.
Others point out that he was a 'bad' cop because in 14 years he had 20 complaints levelled against him, none of them went anywhere?
His actions are indefensible and excessive , and thats why hes doing time for it, but if hed just pulled that trigger once and killed the lad, do you think he would still be in jail, I doubt it very much.

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

but if hed just pulled that trigger once and killed the lad, do you think he would still be in jail, I doubt it very much.

And that was the crux of my post, looks like we've both misinterpreted...

Quote

They do have a 21ft rule thought, & he was under that distance, but shot 16 times when especially the first one dropped him was OTT.

 

[henry d]

The point about the story is not just the horror of what was done, but that people seem to think harsh punishments will prevent/deter crime, it didn`t here. The Chicago police are well known for their racism (broad generalisation alert) and being trigger happy and many black people still offend with the result that they could go to jail for a long term or be shot as they don`t comply with an order. Check out Alfontish Cockerham and Maurice Granton as two recent wrongful deaths murders by Chicago Police.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

The point about the story is not just the horror of what was done, but that people seem to think harsh punishments will prevent/deter crime, it didn`t here. The Chicago police are well known for their racism (broad generalisation alert) and being trigger happy and many black people still offend with the result that they could go to jail for a long term or be shot as they don`t comply with an order. Check out Alfontish Cockerham and Maurice Granton as two recent wrongful deaths murders by Chicago Police.

I'm not sure I follow, as far as I can see your linking your own perception of a racist police force and using that to justify why harsh sentences don't work. 

Here's one for you, how can someone reoffend if they are never let out or are executed? That sort of sentence would have a 0% reoffending rate. Let's protect decent members of the public and put them first for once rather than the "human" rights of the murders and rapists who I would describe as anything but human. 

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

 

Here's one for you, how can someone reoffend if they are never let out or are executed? That sort of sentence would have a 0% reoffending rate. Let's protect decent members of the public and put them first for once rather than the "human" rights of the murders and rapists who I would describe as anything but human. 

I must admit I’m in agreement with this line of thought.

Do what you want with the treatment of lesser crimes, but releasing murderers is a crime in itself as far as I’m concerned. 

[henry d]

15 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm not sure I follow, as far as I can see your linking your own perception of a racist police force and using that to justify why harsh sentences don't work. 

It was just to link to a country with more harsh sentencing, death penalties etc yet offending is still going on, it isn`t working there.

Here's one for you, how can someone reoffend if they are never let out or are executed? That sort of sentence would have a 0% reoffending rate. Are you saying there is no offending going on in jails?

Let's protect decent members of the public and put them first for once rather than the "human" rights of the murders and rapists who I would describe as anything but human. 

You cannot protect someone from crime by putting another person in jail, you protect them by intervention at an earlier stage, you prevent re-offending by giving alternatives to returning to a gang/culture that revolves around re-offending. I very much doubt that a person wakes up one morning and says "You know what, I think that becoming a murderer/rapist/repeat offender is a good career choice!" they get there by other means that can be overt or covert and as such have the ability, with help from outside agencies, to fulfil their potential.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, henry d said:

You cannot protect someone from crime by putting another person in jail, you protect them by intervention at an earlier stage, you prevent re-offending by giving alternatives to returning to a gang/culture that revolves around re-offending. I very much doubt that a person wakes up one morning and says "You know what, I think that becoming a murderer/rapist/repeat offender is a good career choice!" they get there by other means that can be overt or covert and as such have the ability, with help from outside agencies, to fulfil their potential.

Of course there is offending going on in jails, most of it is targeted at other prisoners however which obviously keeps the public safe. 

Of course you can protect people by putting offenders in jail, put a murder in jail for the rest of their life and unless they escape, the only people in danger are officers who work there (their risk is somewhat mitigated as they have working practices to help keep them safe), and other prisoners, members of the public are near 100% safe, execute a murders and they'd have a 0% reoffending rate from that sentence. 

The old, "harsh sentences didn't work either" define "doesn't work" the fact is, most harsher punishment doesn't have 0% reoffending rates, but they offtern have lower reoffending rates than softer ones with a load of costly "rehabilitation", in my opinion the only time rehabilitation has any chance of working is when offenders are very young, or for first time offenders, the vast majority of those in prison are life long offenders who go in and out of the system, causing decent people misery and heart ache, despite all the money wasted on "rehabilitation", repeat offenders, particularly violent ones should be locked up and have the key thrown away, warehouse them cheaply and execute the worst ones when there is absaloute certainty of their offence. 

[Vince Green]

On ‎21‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 15:34, Bazooka Joe said:

Seems common in America, some of the American Cop vids I've seen are worse than the one above, it does make me wonder if they got away with it.

They do have a 21ft rule thought, & he was under that distance, but shot 16 times when especially the first one dropped him was OTT.

 

The 21ft rule has no basis in law, it came from a book written years ago. But in America who polices the police? Answer - nobody.

Its only the emergence of dashcams and phone footage that things like this are coming to public view these days.