Brexit - merged threads

[oowee]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

These things can be changed (for better or worse) by our own Parliament - as we elect them - NOT by the distant EU Commission.

The EU that ensures those rights are not abused by Government. 

[Newbie to this]

Just now, oowee said:

The EU that ensures those rights are not abused by Government. 

It's the workers and unions that ensure those rights are not abused by Government.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

FTA deal offered.

Workers rights are covered by the UK parliament.

Border controls? We've had a free border for people with Ireland since way before the EU and if May accepted the FTA no further border controls are necessary.

So if FTA is the way the government wants to go lets have the FTA arrangement on the table. 

The EU currently guarantees those workers rights. Take away the EU and you may be at the whim of the nasty party. 

Just now, Newbie to this said:

It's the workers and unions that ensure those rights are not abused by Government.

Is that the Unions that the current Government is working hard to undermine? 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

The EU that ensures those rights are not abused by Government. 

Just now, Newbie to this said:

It's the workers and unions that ensure those rights are not abused by Government.

In my view we may well wish to change those rules - these are the things that people wanted when they voted to leave - TAKE BACK CONTROL.  You may or may not want to make changes, but you want to be able to decide things yourself and do them your way.  That is the right and proper British way.

[Newbie to this]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

The EU currently guarantees those workers rights. Take away the EU and you may be at the whim of the nasty party. 

Not according to this MP

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2176332112632776&id=1705780739687918

 

 

And who is this nasty party you talk of?

Edited May 28, 2019 by Newbie to this

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

In my view we may well wish to change those rules - these are the things that people wanted when they voted to leave - TAKE BACK CONTROL.  You may or may not want to make changes, but you want to be able to decide things yourself and do them your way.  That is the right and proper British way.

Fair enough if you don't want the guarantees that the EU provides then lets make it part of the proposition. 

[Newbie to this]

Just now, oowee said:

Fair enough if you don't want the guarantees that the EU provides then lets make it part of the proposition. 

What guarantees does the EU provide, that our own Government can't.

If we don't like what our government decides we can vote them out at the next election.

If we don't like what the EU decides then what?

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

What guarantees does the EU provide, that our own Government can't.

If we don't like what our government decides we can vote them out at the next election.

If we don't like what the EU decides then what?

None. Thats the point. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by oowee

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Fair enough if you don't want the guarantees that the EU provides then lets make it part of the proposition. 

It is fair to say that even though I voted remain, taking back the ability to make our own rules to suit our own culture, working practices, and local conditions is something I wholly support.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is fair to say that even though I voted remain, taking back the ability to make our own rules to suit our own culture, working practices, and local conditions is something I wholly support.

I agree with the principle however workers rights will form part of a trade negotiation. The EU will set those rules if we are in or out. 

Within EU strategy documents, labour provisions are depicted as a critical mechanism for ensuring that trade is ‘not just about interests but also about values’. They are also central to the idea that the European Commission is promoting ‘sustainable economic, social and environmental conditions’ in the EU and trade partner countries.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

I agree with the principle however workers rights will form part of a trade negotiation. The EU will set those rules if we are in or out.

There is no trade negotiation, and if we do get out eventually , they will not be setting any rules for us, unless we agree to them reciprocally .

[Raja Clavata]

45 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Yes, we have already established that you don't agree with democracy. Unless of course it aligns with your views.

Been taking lessons from Rewulf. Try harder, be better than that.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Been taking lessons from Rewulf. Try harder, be better than that.

Dons superiority hat* Be better than moi ?!  There is no equal ! 🤣

Your tunnel vision also has clouds of hot air obscuring your judgment..

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

There is no trade negotiation, and if we do get out eventually , they will not be setting any rules for us, unless we agree to them reciprocally .

The EU will set it's own rules. If we want a trade deal we will agree with them reciprocally. Ergo we will follow the EU rules. 

[Newbie to this]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Been taking lessons from Rewulf. Try harder, be better than that.

I really don't need to.

Whatever way you want to dress it up, calling for a second vote on something that has already been decided, but hasn't been enacted. Is undemocratic.

And anyone doing it, is an anti-democrat!

[oowee]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Dons superiority hat* Be better than moi ?!  There is no equal ! 🤣

Your tunnel vision also has clouds of hot air obscuring your judgment..

We are having a good discussion lets leave out the obscuring clouds 😋

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

however workers rights will form part of a trade negotiation. The EU will set those rules if we are in or out.

....... and that is where I begin to fall out with the EU.  I am a 'free market' person.  When take my car to the garage, I tell them what I want done and get a quote, not how many days they need to give their workers on holiday, where they can/can't buy their tools from, what accountancy programme they use, what type of coffee they drink etc, etc.

I get a quote and (usually) take the lowest quote.  The main BMW garage is always a fortune (and not very good), but ever so plush, lots of young ladies offering me coffee (from BMW logo cups and saucers) and biscuits, BIG screen videos of the latest BMW models.  No doubt they have to use BMW branded tools, parts, spares, materials.  My local independent is very helpful, far less plush, far cheaper and apart from safety critical items sources his parts from decent independant suppliers (like Bosch) rather than through BMW.  (For example a Bosch battery was half price through him than the official BMW battery that was probably Bosch anyway).

I want us (like the independent garages) to be able to choose our ways of doing things.

[oowee]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

I really don't need to.

Whatever way you want to dress it up, calling for a second vote on something that has already been decided, but hasn't been enacted. Is undemocratic.

And anyone doing it, is an anti-democrat!

I can't agree. We voted that we wanted out.

Now the politicians need to set out what that means in practice. We can then decide if that's what we want. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

The EU will set it's own rules. If we want a trade deal we will agree with them reciprocally. Ergo we will follow the EU rules. 

What trade deal ? There isnt one , highly likely never will be.
Its not in the EU s interest to give us one, we have discussed this extensively before.

The only way to even get there before Mays deal crashed and burned, was to make that many concessions to them, that we were virtually staying in the bloc anyway.

We need to get away from the idea of deals, and think about the real alternatives, they say thats the only deal, so we are left with 2 options, WTO or remain.
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
 

[oowee]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

....... and that is where I begin to fall out with the EU.  I am a 'free market' person.  When take my car to the garage, I tell them what I want done and get a quote, not how many days they need to give their workers on holiday, where they can/can't buy their tools from, what accountancy programme they use, what type of coffee they drink etc, etc.

I get a quote and (usually) take the lowest quote.  The main BMW garage is always a fortune (and not very good), but ever so plush, lots of young ladies offering me coffee (from BMW logo cups and saucers) and biscuits, BIG screen videos of the latest BMW models.  No doubt they have to use BMW branded tools, parts, spares, materials.  My local independent is very helpful, far less plush, far cheaper and apart from safety critical items sources his parts from decent independant suppliers (like Bosch) rather than through BMW.  (For example a Bosch battery was half price through him than the official BMW battery that was probably Bosch anyway).

I want us (like the independent garages) to be able to choose our ways of doing things.

Sounds good to me. I don't want to buy my t shirts from a country that uses child labour. Unfortunately I don't have the time to check where my t shirt is coming from. I expect my Government to do that work for me and look out for those less able. 

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

What trade deal ? There isnt one , highly likely never will be.
Its not in the EU s interest to give us one, we have discussed this extensively before.

The only way to even get there before Mays deal crashed and burned, was to make that many concessions to them, that we were virtually staying in the bloc anyway.

We need to get away from the idea of deals, and think about the real alternatives, they say thats the only deal, so we are left with 2 options, WTO or remain.
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
 

Oooops looks like I was mislead by the leave proposition that said we would get an easy trade deal. Apparently it was in the interest of the German car makers. 

Lets put this new alternative no deal on the table and see how many support that. 

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Sounds good to me. I don't want to buy my t shirts from a country that uses child labour.

Actually - best of the lot is the bloke to whom I usually take my old Defender. 

Does it in a shed in his parents garden, nothing too much trouble, no coffee (unless you take your own flask).  But cheap and the only downside is you have to wipe the oily prints off the steering wheel before you drive it back.  But cheap - and unlike BMW, I never have to take it back multiple times for the same fault, and he has never dented it!

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Actually - best of the lot is the bloke to whom I usually take my old Defender. 

Does it in a shed in his parents garden, nothing too much trouble, no coffee (unless you take your own flask).  But cheap and the only downside is you have to wipe the oily prints off the steering wheel before you drive it back.  But cheap - and unlike BMW, I never have to take it back multiple times for the same fault, and he has never dented it!

Does he pay tax? 

[mick miller]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

 looks like I was mislead by the leave proposition that said we would get an easy trade deal

Wrong again, an oft misquoted remainer argument...

'Getting a free trade deal should be the easiest deal in history', sadly, when you have a PM whose first action was to bend over and give in to any EU demand, because, in her heart, she wanted to stay closely aligned, so much so that she undermined everything that the ministers she appointed to handle the negotiation tried to do and instead relied almost solely on another arch-remainer civil servant, that was never going to happen was it?

The only thing we need to have a second go at is leaving.

Edited May 28, 2019 by mick miller

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Does he pay tax? 

I believe so; it is a proper business, takes cheques, proper invoice, VAT etc.  Just that he has chosen to do things as a one man band and do value for money and personal service instead of a huge smart chain with enormous overheads.  In fact his kit is all very good quality, Snap On etc., but his premises are ....... basic.  Knows his old Defenders though.

[oowee]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I believe so; it is a proper business, takes cheques, proper invoice, VAT etc.  Just that he has chosen to do things as a one man band and do value for money and personal service instead of a huge smart chain with enormous overheads.  In fact his kit is all very good quality, Snap On etc., but his premises are ....... basic.  Knows his old Defenders though.

These sort of tradesman are worth their weight in gold. 

16 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Wrong again, an oft misquoted remainer argument...

'Getting a free trade deal should be the easiest deal in history', sadly, when you have a PM whose first action was to bend over and give in to any EU demand, because, in her heart, she wanted to stay closely aligned, so much so that she undermined everything that the ministers she appointed to handle the negotiation tried to do and instead relied almost solely on another arch-remainer civil servant, that was never going to happen was it?

The only thing we need to have a second go at is leaving.

Looks like we were both misled. lets see what happens on the second go.