panoma1 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 41 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said: Sorry, that wasn't meant to be specifically against anyone on here; my apologies if that is how my comment came across. No problem Chris, I just took the opportunity to disabuse anyone who got the impression I was in anyway, criticising the police’s conduct in dealing with this scumbag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: EXACTLY! Always treated as viable, shoot the head, stop the triggering of the device! This would have been no good, if the device was the sort he clenched his fist to arm, and was designed to go off, when he relaxed (because he was dead!) his grip 💣! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 This is why they should aim for the medulla oblongata, disrupting it does not allow the body to control muscles either clenching or relaxing. That's why de Menezes what shot 7 times in the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, panoma1 said: This would have been no good, if the device was the sort he clenched his fist to arm, and was designed to go off, when he relaxed (because he was dead!) his grip 💣! A version of the dead mans switch- could it be that the Officers assessment that due to having both hands occupied by knives, that he was not in possession of a ‘dead mans switch’ or was it just his first reaction and gamble that it wasn’t? Either way, it’s the way I feel other such ‘Terrorists’ should be dealt with, such as the two involved with Lee Rigby’s death- walking towards an Officer with a meat cleaver in hand having decapitated a human being should have been regarded as an immediate threat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: This is why they should aim for the medulla oblongata, disrupting it does not allow the body to control muscles either clenching or relaxing. That's why de Menezes what shot 7 times in the head. Yeah maybe in the movies, that type of accuracy in the real world with a handgun is fantasy. De Menezes is not a good example of how things should be done, in this case he had stabbed people, he was armed, he had a suicide belt on, none of that was the case with De Menezes. They got it right this time, they got it badly wrong with De Menezes. Edited November 30, 2019 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 When they shot de Menezes they thought he was a bomber, I know one of the lads on the job as he now works with me. My constabulary practice shooting the t zone. I've been an afo/ofc for 15 years and practiced it loads. I dont say that in the heat of the moment it is achievable but it's well taught and practiced. If you don't do it then it's down to your force but many forces have as tactical option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 Quote I dont say that in the heat of the moment it is achievable but it's well taught and practiced. If you don't do it then it's down to your force but many forces have as tactical option. I doubt its achievable in most situations, unless the muzzle is in contact with the target, even than if the target was moving around it would be difficult. If that is policy why then did the police in this incident not put the muzzle to his head and put 7 or so rounds in it, if as you say that is what they train and practise to do. In most cases they are trained to shoot centre mass, if they have a suicide vest then a head shot would be the preferred option. Assuming the terrorists organisations are not all stupid knowing the police use that tactic, then they would start designing the devices to detonate when a button was released rather that pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 I have no idea why they didnt put the muzzle to his head, I've never been taught that or taught it but if that's your force policy then you must have a good reason for doing it. I have no idea where he was shot but you may be privy to that. I dont know what the policy of the met is or the city is in regards to the training they received. I dont have the answers to your questions as I wasn't there. I don't know what you train but its obviously different from what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: I have no idea why they didnt put the muzzle to his head, I've never been taught that or taught it but if that's your force policy then you must have a good reason for doing it. I have no idea where he was shot but you may be privy to that. I dont know what the policy of the met is or the city is in regards to the training they received. I dont have the answers to your questions as I wasn't there. I don't know what you train but its obviously different from what I do. I didn't say it was force policy , here like most police forces they are trained to shoot centre mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 We train to shoot centre mass unless you suspect they are wearing an IED then you take an alternative poa to the t zone so as not to disrupt the device. What are you trained to do if you suspect they are wearing an IED? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: We train to shoot centre mass unless you suspect they are wearing an IED then you take an alternative poa to the t zone so as not to disrupt the device. What are you trained to do if you suspect they are wearing an IED? Run like ****? Lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 52 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: I have no idea why they didnt put the muzzle to his head, I've never been taught that or taught it but if that's your force policy then you must have a good reason for doing it. I have no idea where he was shot but you may be privy to that. I dont know what the policy of the met is or the city is in regards to the training they received. I dont have the answers to your questions as I wasn't there. I don't know what you train but its obviously different from what I do. Have you seen the videos? It looks as if the Police pull the member of public off the terrorist and then the terrorist does something with his hand and is shot a few times. Its hard to see what he's doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, silver pigeon69 said: Have you seen the videos? It looks as if the Police pull the member of public off the terrorist and then the terrorist does something with his hand and is shot a few times. Its hard to see what he's doing. Yeah I've seen the videos, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) Quote 13 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: We train to shoot centre mass unless you suspect they are wearing an IED then you take an alternative poa to the t zone so as not to disrupt the device. What are you trained to do if you suspect they are wearing an IED? That depends all police here carry a firearm its just another bit of kit. In the rest of the UK there are armed response they receive different training, there are also armed response here that receive different training from the rest of armed PSNI officers. Armed Response Unit | Police Service of Northern Ireland Edited November 30, 2019 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 Just now, storm in a teacup said: Yeah I've seen the videos, why? In my opinion it looks as though they didn't know he had a vest on until they pulled the member of public off of him. He then did something that revealed the vest and was shot. Maybe why they didn't initially put the gun to his head and pull the trigger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 I would say they didnt put a gun to his head and pull the trigger as it's not taught by any police force in the uk as far as I know. 5 minutes ago, ordnance said: That depends all police here carry a firearm its just another bit of kit. In the rest of the UK there are armed response they receive different training, there are also armed response here that receive different training from the rest of armed PSNI officers. Armed Response Unit | Police Service of Northern Ireland Apologies I know that all the police over the water carry as I've spent a bit of time there myself. I meant to say where are you trained to shoot if you suspect they have an IED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: I would say they didnt put a gun to his head and pull the trigger as it's not taught by any police force in the uk as far as I know. Ok, I'm just guessing, i don't know anything about Armed Police procedure or training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 Many moons ago it was centre mass and double taps and pride if those two 'taps' where touching. Then 'wiser heads' suggested the first shot had already done sufficient damage why not put the second on another critical point and after that practise changed somewhat. Back then suicide vests where not the problem, we just needed to shut the danger down fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 Quote Apologies I know that all the police over the water carry as I've spent a bit of time there myself. I meant to say where are you trained to shoot if you suspect they have an IED. The armed response here receive the same training as forces in the rest of the UK, i am not privy to the training regarding that type of incident. The usual terrorists trash here go out of their way not to blow themselves up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Walker570 said: Many moons ago it was centre mass and double taps and pride if those two 'taps' where touching. Then 'wiser heads' suggested the first shot had already done sufficient damage why not put the second on another critical point and after that practise changed somewhat. Back then suicide vests where not the problem, we just needed to shut the danger down fast. Things haven't changed much, what they talk about now is honestly held belief, what you have to justify is your first and last round. What was you thinking to take the first shot and why did you stop. It's all about threat assessment. 2 minutes ago, ordnance said: The armed response here receive the same training as forces in the rest of the UK, i am not privy to the training regarding that type of incident. The usual terrorists trash here go out of their way not to blow themselves up. Apologies I thought you were job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 What a lot of people do not realise the police officer pulling the trigger has to stand infront of the Coroner and justify his actions, he will have no support from anyone or anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, storm in a teacup said: Things haven't changed much, what they talk about now is honestly held belief, what you have to justify is your first and last round. What was you thinking to take the first shot and why did you stop. It's all about threat assessment. Apologies I thought you were job No problem. The armed response here receive the same training as armed response in the rest of the UK it is a UK force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm in a teacup Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 Just now, Walker570 said: What a lot of people do not realise the police officer pulling the trigger has to stand infront of the Coroner and justify his actions, he will have no support from anyone or anywhere. It's a lonely place gripping the brass rail but if you do the right thing for the right reasons you will be alright. 1 minute ago, ordnance said: No problem. The armed response here receive the same training as armed response in the rest of the UK it is a UK force. I've done a few courses over the water. I got very very drunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 30, 2019 Report Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Walker570 said: What a lot of people do not realise the police officer pulling the trigger has to stand infront of the Coroner and justify his actions, he will have no support from anyone or anywhere. I am sure they receive support from the police federation etc. But its right that they have to justify their actions, i doubt they will have any issues in this case. Edited November 30, 2019 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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