YES OR NO Phasing out Lead

[GingerCat]

How about a bit of self policing. Like anything entering the food chain has to be shot with steel and certain things can only be shot to enter to the food chain like pheasants etc. That way vermin shooting can continue with lead. 

I suspect a lot less lead than game shooting. Public health will be protected and everyone else can carry on. Then say in another 5 years it's all steel. Plenty of time then to work out any new loads etc. 

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

How about a bit of self policing. Like anything entering the food chain has to be shot with steel and certain things can only be shot to enter to the food chain like pheasants etc. That way vermin shooting can continue with lead. 

I suspect a lot less lead than game shooting. Public health will be protected and everyone else can carry on. Then say in another 5 years it's all steel. Plenty of time then to work out any new loads etc. 

You might get this with rats and perhaps crows etc foxes mink etc. but rally its just not necessary. the classic car scenario with non lead petrol might work, like with old guns Damascus barrels muzzle loaders etc, but unlike cars which in some cases its best to keep original, rather than unleaded heads or additives through historical reasons/ originality. Guns can use Bismuth as lead and it wont harm them, unlike lead additive which has potential to harm some engines if prolonged use.  You can not even play the choke mod trump card its not even debatable with Bismuth. So all things being equal . might be nice but WHY? its Lead its Toxic and its got good alternatives.

But i think we should wait and see, and think we might get to impliment something via the collecter gun route. who knows .

[Konor]

3 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

How about a bit of self policing. Like anything entering the food chain has to be shot with steel and certain things can only be shot to enter to the food chain like pheasants etc. That way vermin shooting can continue with lead. 

I suspect a lot less lead than game shooting. Public health will be protected and everyone else can carry on. Then say in another 5 years it's all steel. Plenty of time then to work out any new loads etc. 

I hope that if legislation is brought in that it targets those areas of present lead shot use most likely to cause a problem and that it is used intelligently to have minimum collateral damage to those areas of our sport least likely to give rise to a toxicity problem. Ideally allowing the continued use of lead shot for example in damascused  barrelled and .410 shotguns for vermin/ rough shooting so that they don’t all end up on the scrap heap. It would be terrible if the heritage surrounding all the old side by side era guns was lost to “progress”and they ended up as worthless ornaments.

[andrewluke]

what's changed??,lead is lead,

https://basc.org.uk/basc-issues-response-to-chris-packham-lead-shot-article/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-argues-lead-ban-response-natural-england-consultation/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-welcomes-austrian-decision-to-halt-lead-phase-out-plans/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-welcomes-wwt-clarification-on-risk-management/

https://basc.org.uk/new-study-supports-basc-position-on-lead-ammunition/

https://basc.org.uk/dont-ignore-the-science-on-lead-basc-says/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-argues-for-improved-science-based-consultation-at-international-conference/

https://basc.org.uk/statement-by-alan-jarrett-on-a-letter-from-the-chairman-of-the-lead-ammunition-group/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-renews-eley-hawk-partnership/

 

[lancer425]

33 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

what's changed??,lead is lead,

https://basc.org.uk/basc-issues-response-to-chris-packham-lead-shot-article/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-argues-lead-ban-response-natural-england-consultation/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-welcomes-austrian-decision-to-halt-lead-phase-out-plans/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-welcomes-wwt-clarification-on-risk-management/

https://basc.org.uk/new-study-supports-basc-position-on-lead-ammunition/

https://basc.org.uk/dont-ignore-the-science-on-lead-basc-says/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-argues-for-improved-science-based-consultation-at-international-conference/

https://basc.org.uk/statement-by-alan-jarrett-on-a-letter-from-the-chairman-of-the-lead-ammunition-group/

https://basc.org.uk/basc-renews-eley-hawk-partnership/

 

ECHA is one thing as are others.

[wymberley]

9 hours ago, lancer425 said:

You might get this with rats and perhaps crows etc foxes mink etc. but rally its just not necessary. the classic car scenario with non lead petrol might work, like with old guns Damascus barrels muzzle loaders etc, but unlike cars which in some cases its best to keep original, rather than unleaded heads or additives through historical reasons/ originality. Guns can use Bismuth as lead and it wont harm them, unlike lead additive which has potential to harm some engines if prolonged use.  You can not even play the choke mod trump card its not even debatable with Bismuth. So all things being equal . might be nice but WHY? its Lead its Toxic and its got good alternatives.

But i think we should wait and see, and think we might get to impliment something via the collecter gun route. who knows .

I have 4411 lead cartridges. 1000 are 20 bore game and another 200 are also 20 bore but clay sized shot. The remainder are all quality 12 bore 1 oz No 7s game except for a few heavier loads for the corvids. Would you care to swap these for comparable bismuth loads?

[lancer425]

45 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I have 4411 lead cartridges. 1000 are 20 bore game and another 200 are also 20 bore but clay sized shot. The remainder are all quality 12 bore 1 oz No 7s game except for a few heavier loads for the corvids. Would you care to swap these for comparable bismuth loads?

Every bismuth load i have is a Reload. I never sell or give away my reloads.

You will burn them off before five years. And it you dont it will mean your ammo use is low enough that you could easily aford to reload your own if a lead ban ever comes in.

[BrowningB7]

41 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I have 4411 lead cartridges. 1000 are 20 bore game and another 200 are also 20 bore but clay sized shot. The remainder are all quality 12 bore 1 oz No 7s game except for a few heavier loads for the corvids. Would you care to swap these for comparable bismuth loads?

If anyone else wants to swap lead for comparable bismuth I'll be more then happy to convert and denounce the use of lead! 

Also, if certain shoots want to sign up with BASC and the British Game Alliance to supply Samworth Brothers ( the £1 billion annual turnover company who owns Ginsters and other business's ) with game for the up and coming contract with Waitrose - then just get them to shoot with steel as requested by Waitrose and let the rest of us use lead, why blanket everyone with it. 

I know I know, it's 'voluntary' not compulsory, but come on!! 

[David BASC]

Please stop focussing on the food angle, that's not the only issue, If you read the FAQ's on the associations web site you will see:

There are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA).

Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.

There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them.

[lancer425]

Burn them off, move over to a non lead alternative of your choice. They are suitable for the sport of game shooting or avian and small mammal vermin control. Non plastic wads will be available in due course.

  The ECHA is on with fishing weights too. and i think this time it might be all sizes and even sea weights. So its either burn off the ammo, or scrap the lead. Not really worth turning into fishing weights if it gets banned. I think the fishing weights might come in sooner rather than latter. ECHA is n a mission and not in the mood for compromising.

[andrewluke]

20 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Every bismuth load i have is a Reload. I never sell or give away my reloads.

You will burn them off before five years. And it you dont it will mean your ammo use is low enough that you could easily aford to reload your own if a lead ban ever comes in.

i did say that you  always got some sort of answer!

[lancer425]

Just now, andrewluke said:

i did say that you  always got some sort of answer!

I have because i get out lots do lots and know what works well. Do the same and you wont be flogging the lame horse that is LEAD. You too would be aware of what works too.  You really do need to get out more. but please wait until after this virus is passed .

[andrewluke]

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I have because i get out lots do lots and know what works well. Do the same and you wont be flogging the lame horse that is LEAD. You too would be aware of what works too.  You really do need to get out more. but please wait until after this virus is passed .

why is Lead "the lame horse"?,is it because it's going to be banned when no one is calling for a ban(so you say)??

13 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Please stop focussing on the food angle, that's not the only issue, If you read the FAQ's on the associations web site you will see:

There are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA).

Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.

There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them.

how did i find out that EU countries did not want game shot with lead??,BASC PERHAPS told me

how did i find out that Waitrose did not want game shot with lead??,BASC PERHAPS told me

[BrowningB7]

13 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Please stop focussing on the food angle, that's not the only issue, If you read the FAQ's on the associations web site you will see:

There are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA).

Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.

There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them.

How can I stop focusing on the food angle, it's what we're being told. If it's more then that, why wasn't the phase out suggested for clay grounds that pump more lead into the sky then my little game syndicate ( correct me if this advise has changed in the past month or so since I originally looked into it) 

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

why is Lead "the lame horse"?,is it because it's going to be banned when no one is calling for a ban(so you say)??

Stop being obtuse and plating verbal tennis with everybody who points out any real facts to you. Just grow up and get a life and stop feeding off others. Hows that ANDREWLUKE? How old are you 10 ? 12? A little more.?

[wymberley]

[BrowningB7]

18 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Burn them off, move over to a non lead alternative of your choice. They are suitable for the sport of game shooting or avian and small mammal vermin control. Non plastic wads will be available in due course.

  The ECHA is on with fishing weights too. and i think this time it might be all sizes and even sea weights. So its either burn off the ammo, or scrap the lead. Not really worth turning into fishing weights if it gets banned. I think the fishing weights might come in sooner rather than latter. ECHA is n a mission and not in the mood for compromising.

I don't understand the mentality of 'jumping' before being 'pushed'. 

The European research in lead use (maybe ECHA, I can't remember) was due to conclude in 2021. We don't know how long they would need to analyse the data to before providing a view ponit on it, maybe 2022,2023. With the virus situation now globally you could probably knock that back another year. Until a strong case is put forward against shooting sports, why are we running for the hills?

Those that oppose shooting are not going to look at us and say:

"you know what, those guys phased out lead on their own accord, maybe them shooters ain't that bad after all; let's back off them and give them a break" 

[andrewluke]

40 minutes ago, David BASC said:

There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them.

here are lead alternatives,look at the prices

and yes lancer425,i know shooters can reload!

 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by andrewluke

[clangerman]

20 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Stop being obtuse and plating verbal tennis with everybody who points out any real facts to you. Just grow up and get a life and stop feeding off others. Hows that ANDREWLUKE? How old are you 10 ? 12? A little more.?

you are rude mate you don’t get to tell people what to think or do on here it’s a free forum 

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

 

1 minute ago, BrowningB7 said:

I don't understand the mentality of 'jumping' before being 'pushed'. 

The European research in lead use (maybe ECHA, I can't remember) was due to conclude in 2021. We don't know how long they would need to analyse the data to before providing a view ponit on it, maybe 2022,2023. With the virus situation now globally you could probably knock that back another year. Until a strong case is put forward against shooting sports, why are we running for the hills?

Those that oppose shooting are not going to look at us and say:

"you know what, those guys phased out lead on their own accord, maybe them shooters ain't that bad after all; let's back off them and give them a break" 

I have no idea how long it will take ECHA to draw up any conclusions, but as you said 2023. Ok we will go with that. the voluntary guidance, should have bought us another couple of years. So then our own negotiations on lead will possibly start.

I do not think its a case of jumping before being pushed, but a shrewd rearguard action to buy us considerable time, which may look like a retreat but in fact is just a way of us deciding where we want to make a stand or buy time to sort out any ammo issues we might have ie wadding etc. .

 

[David BASC]

As I said earlier,  a few of you  keep failing to look at the bigger picture and focussing on one issue or part of an issue to try and support your arguments. Food is part of the issue yes but not the whole issue, even if lead in food was not a problem then the impending legislation banning lead on environmental ground will still prohibit the use of lead shot.

Argue all you like, pick holes all you like, keep attacking BASC all you like, it does not change the facts, we as shooters need to adapt to the changing environment in which we operate, and show that what we do is sustainable. 

[lancer425]

10 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

here are lead alternatives,look at the prices

and yes lancer425,i know shooters can reload!

 

 

Bio wads and ammo are new and prices are not a true indication of what they will be in the fullness of time. Plaswads is the big issue, at the moment but it wont be given time.

[andrewluke]

 

3 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Bio wads and ammo are new and prices are not a true indication of what they will be in the fullness of time. Plaswads is the big issue, at the moment but it wont be given time.

of course,they will be more expensive once lead has gone,what else would we use??

Edited March 24, 2020 by andrewluke

[lancer425]

10 minutes ago, clangerman said:

you are rude mate you don’t get to tell people what to think or do on here it’s a free forum 

 

3 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

do you think 32g or a 34g steel load in 3s are perfect for the squirrels and more than capable of sorting the occasional carrion crow too?,perhaps a bit heavy!

28 gram of 7s will be ok squirels , on the corvids and if you want a bit more range just jump up to around 4s. 32 gram if you think you must but i just choke it bdown and carry on more often than not.

  Get out there learn how to use steel, its good. and the info filtering around though well meaning 20 years ago is pretty outdated today.

 Fact is there are no horror stories with steel, it pure fictional propaganda, by an ever dwindling hardcore of Lead advocates who frankly just do not know any better.

Steel and the other non Leads work, get with the plan if your able to on your grounds  even with plaswads until the bios become more readily available.

You will be more than happy with steel, many use steel anyway for pigeons and vermin just because they use it and like it from wildfowling.

[lancer425]

20 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

 

of course,they will be more expensive once lead has gone,what else would we use??

Steel is not currently the main shot type. When lead use declines, Steel prices will become lower its like any other commodity. Ammo firms have to get competitive and will do, the steel ammo in the states is much lower because its more in demand. Demand here rises the price will have to fall, or other firms will jump in undercutting.  Ok you dont want to hear about reloading but Indi cast at £40+ vat  for 28 kilo S7 which is a big 6 will keep steel prices down.  .