Worth it??

[Smiler23]

It's hard to tell if it's an improvement on clip, but certainly seems to put plenty on the paper at 60-70 yards.... The obviously use a smaller pattern plate area than us over here , (turkey head as opposed to our 30" circle) but that looks as tho it would still be giving a nice even pattern at 70 yards

[Smiler23]

2 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Admittedly only 9 TSS cartridges which all killed Geese fired from my Aya No3 Magnum 1/4 an 1/2 chokes just my opinion safe and know damage to gun

Did you pattern the shells through Aya? Be interesting to see them compared to the smaller tight choked patterns from smaller gauged guns that are on youtube

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Smiler23 said:

It's hard to tell if it's an improvement on clip, but certainly seems to put plenty on the paper at 60-70 yards.... The obviously use a smaller pattern plate area than us over here , (turkey head as opposed to our 30" circle) but that looks as tho it would still be giving a nice even pattern at 70 yards

It is more testing than patterning, to give a rough idea.  Use three runs of metre plotter paper or a paper table cloth on the end of a round bale.  aim in the middle all will be on the paper,  do ten of 12c of them. You will know if you got it or not.

[6.5x55SE]

30 minutes ago, Smiler23 said:

Did you pattern the shells through Aya? Be interesting to see them compared to the smaller tight choked patterns from smaller gauged guns that are on youtube

Not with TSS but did with power shot and hw13  at 50yrd which if you'd hit a Snipe it was riddled. I did pattern my 20ga at 60 yrd using Pattern Master Anoconda Long Range Choke again mind blowing patterns but as we all know the Quarry we shoot at still has to be hit. I've always been a 20ga shooter but hand on heart PWS Hevi-Shot HW13 is a game changer TSS is on another level having said that most Geese I shoot on the Foreshore is with Steel shot

[Guest cookoff013]

When i tried to load powershot, i tried to keep speeds reasonable, 1300 or so. My thinking was big traditional type loads. Like lead but just live with the density advantage. That tss18, i doubt anything could disrupt its pattern. Ive never reloaded it, i did think about duplex with steel, 

I think i did a calculation ages ago. At 40 yards, 1400mv #2steel and #9tss are the same

[lancer425]

30 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

When i tried to load powershot, i tried to keep speeds reasonable, 1300 or so. My thinking was big traditional type loads. Like lead but just live with the density advantage. That tss18, i doubt anything could disrupt its pattern. Ive never reloaded it, i did think about duplex with steel, 

I think i did a calculation ages ago. At 40 yards, 1400mv #2steel and #9tss are the same

With the density of TSS its easy to ignore speed, and yet another 80fps or 100fps gained downrange from TSS might be worth having given the density.

Patterns over 1550 fps in typical hard shot loads can be a little difficult to get good patterns from. but to give up FPS no good reason is in my thinking a waste.  The old adage of slower patterns tighter might hold true for a big old softie like Lead, but with harder shot and especially dense hard shot like tSS that will produce lower pressures its a waste not to make use of the pressure saving to make more velocity and gain from the heavier shot downrange which will gain from just a few fps .

[Guest cookoff013]

Thats something i never persued.

Doubt ill ever test it

[motty]

9 hours ago, Smiler23 said:

If I'm right in what I'm thinking a tss #7 pellet weighs slightly more than a lead #AAA pellet with 185 to ounce, where aaa is 37

I don't understand this post.

[Smiler23]

20 minutes ago, motty said:

I don't understand this post.

It was for comparison, an individual #7 tss weighs more than a lead #AAA pellet... The #7 has 185 pellet's to ounce, the AAA has 37 to ounce... 

[motty]

1 minute ago, Smiler23 said:

It was for comparison, an individual #7 tss weighs more than a lead #AAA pellet... The #7 has 185 pellet's to ounce, the AAA has 37 to ounce... 

Sorry, but that simply doesn't make sense.  If they weighed the same, there would be the same amount to the ounce. AAA lead weighs far more per pellet.

[Smiler23]

Yes,your right...that makes perfect sense...I don't have any so can't weigh them individually, I got the weights and pellet count off www earlier... 

[enfieldspares]

I've read, and re-read this thread and, all of a sudden, I've come to the thoughts that the tight pattern is, yes, partly the shot used but mainly the low velocity. That people are being bamboozled into thinking that the shot is why it shoots a tight group when in truth it is the low velocity. The long standing idea also called the "low pressure" load.

Greener and others all write of low velocity loads back in the day shooting a tight pattern. There's one writer (it may be Teasdale-Buckell or even as far far back as Hawker) who writes of some unscrupulous gunshop tricking a customer into think a gun was "tight shooting" by loading a low velocity load and shooting out the crown of an old top hat.

So for comparison I'd like to see this shot by a lead shot load of pellets at the same velocity and at the same distance with the same shot count and I think that the shot pattern would probably be as tight. As I say I read and re-read the thread and seen and re-seen the videos. My conclusion it's more that 1100 fps velocity that is the reason not the shot.

Edited May 25, 2020 by enfieldspares

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

I've read, and re-read this thread and, all of a sudden, I've come to the thoughts that the tight pattern is, yes, partly the shot used but mainly the low velocity. That people are being bamboozled into thinking that the shot is why it shoots a tight group when in truth it is the low velocity. The long standing idea also called the "low pressure" load.

Greener and others all write of low velocity loads back in the day shooting a tight pattern. There's one writer (it may be Teasdale-Buckell or even as far far back as Hawker) who writes of some unscrupulous gunshop tricking a customer into think a gun was "tight shooting" by loading a low velocity load and shooting out the crown of an old top hat.

So for comparison I'd like to see this shot by a lead shot load of pellets at the same velocity and at the same distance with the same shot count and I think that the shot pattern would probably be as tight. As I say I read and re-read the thread and seen and re-seen the videos. My conclusion it's more that 1100 fps velocity that is the reason not the shot.

Nice idea but when shot is hard and full wading employed in loads it starts to fall apart.  Most shot types with anything in the 80 DPh hardness and some crush resistance like even bismuth is good for 1500/ 1550fps. if in buffered good cussion wading or if non malable you can go closer around 1600fps. . Modern over choking is the way to control the spread of faster loads. typical 40 though full choke restrictions in lead ate struggling much over 1200fps 1300fps tops. too soft too heavy lower pressure but mailable, you can help Lead with buffer etc and supple wad wrappers but it does not respond well to Firm patter driver type wading. If you try and send it much over 1200fps. the old magnum lead Winchesters at 1210fps had it about spot on. you can go slightly faster with high antimony hard nickel lead but not that much quicker.

Steel is good for close to 2000fps its hard to get there with modern powders in 12s Old A steel early lots could give amasing speeds, but not since about 2007/ 2008. Patterns on the latter lots do suffer.

 You will get good speed with 10s or mosberg 935s but even in a back bored 12, need more progresive powders like yesteryear to get the speeds and make them pattern.

  The big rub with high speed is the loss downrange, on paper it looks less effective than it is. But those that did use it did make it work enjoyed using it. I love fast steel just wish we had some powder available that could acctualy make the speeds thats the trouble. If i had 20 kilo of A steel lot 2 . I would load 1860fps for everything with steel.

 In truth few in the UK have ever acctualy loaded these hyperfast steel loads, the powder was not available here for that long that would do it. A381 never did it in the type i had.

Here is a video of some fast 10 loads shows it still can be done in the 10.

 

[aberisle]

The Zeekuup guy has a fast 10 bore load in a cut down case using HS6? dont use it ,i tried it i loaded 2 cartridges up i fired one and cut up the other one. It was brutal i had a job opening my Zabala after it was fired.

It was a light load going fast so i thought it might be ok i emailed him about it and he said " oh that happened to me" so dont try that one, he also has a load that has a pinch of red dot as a starter above the steel powder just to get it going......i would'nt try that one either.

I like his channel its one of the better ones from the USA but his reloading in kinda out there 😲

[enfieldspares]

I agree ABERISLE duplex loads are inherently unsafe as has been shown many many times. 

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, aberisle said:

The Zeekuup guy has a fast 10 bore load in a cut down case using HS6? dont use it ,i tried it i loaded 2 cartridges up i fired one and cut up the other one. It was brutal i had a job opening my Zabala after it was fired.

It was a light load going fast so i thought it might be ok i emailed him about it and he said " oh that happened to me" so dont try that one, he also has a load that has a pinch of red dot as a starter above the steel powder just to get it going......i would'nt try that one either.

I like his channel its one of the better ones from the USA but his reloading in kinda out there 😲

The load on the video is scant on detail, I did about 80 of the HS6 loads in varrious cases the supremes and chedite hulls were the lowest pressure, the old winchester paper base and paper base wad federal were the highest pressure.

HS6 is ball and hard to ignite in cold especialy, best ignition and most reliable pressures is without any question CCI209M . The federal  209A Showed a bigger variation in pressure , and i will say this tends to be the case with other powders too.

Since A steel came back on sale here, the newer lots are much more primer friendly, and this fact is one positive aspect of its evolution. This also means that the hype in pressure you expect can be lessened by just switching to a CX2000 primer, or Martagoni 686.

 Re your Zabala , In stock form it will have long chokes and and generaly they pattern fast steel quite well, But nothing like the Terrors or jebbs ICs etc.

The fact it was difficult to open was probably down to a case head pressure deformation, so you could have been using a old weakened well used case, or more likeley been running right up there in pressures probably 13000PSi or there abouts. It takes nothing to bump pressures over 12500 PSI which is about as far as you want to be going with a modern 10 if you are using OP loads . It is done by many in the states because of the restrictive SAMI 10ga pressure limits. Which catter for old guns and therefore staying in sami limit gives a drop in performance, and is why most comercial 10 ammo is lower velocity for same weight compared to all modern 3.5 inch 12s.

 Not saying go over Sami limits or even use sami limits just saying what many do.

If i use any hotter loads i pressure test them If they are under 12500PSI i run them, never had a problem in formerly mag 10s or  sp10s and brownings in over 40 years.  If i were to sugest a hull to use for fast HS6 steel, i would run chedites with TPS and CCI209m, Start 10% under zekups loads and go in on max a grain at a time and always run 5 of each. just to be sure.

I was not there when you had trouble with your zabala but i am guessing you were using fed 209As with reliable ignition in mind and a federal or winchester paper based hull. , but any number of other things could bump up your breach pressures, zek is quite clear about this in his video though.

He is long dead now, but the king of fast steel was old Ned S / he went under other names too, but he got hounded of varrious reloading forums in the early 2000s, due to his Preference for as he put it SIZLING FAST STEEL. He posted pages of info some of it positively brilliant, yet some of it "Out there" but he never failed to explain to me the finer details of a Rouge fast load. Be it under performing or making too much pressure. He would find out where i was going wrong. and i will say i was ussualy wrong, he was often mixing up names we used for wads here compared to there. our B&Ps them were CSDs back then in the states. and the scandi wads were another name. Before vargner and i think sold by pressision in the states at that time.

Shame old Ned died he had lots to give if you listened to him, but i think he was loosing it in the last few years will have been well into his 80s when he went and was still hunting lesser canadas in and around Amarillo . .

 

[aberisle]

For the 10 bore i now use the loads in the book "High performace 10 gauge loads" by Joe Speroni, sadly he is also now deceased, he had wide range of load data for 10 bores with pressures and velocity's listed.... much safer than wildcatting loads

[Smiler23]

At similar pellet count in the 1oz,

tss 18 #6 = 139 to Oz

Lead #4 = 135 to Oz...

So these pellet's must be similar in density each pellet? ( Is that right??) IV battered my own head looking at numbers and data with this stuff now.

So how does the tss over so much more downwind energy?? I know it's slightly smaller so less friction per pellet, but it isn't that much difference, is it due to the hardness of the shot???

I'm starting to think it's witchcraft 😂

 

[motty]

1 hour ago, Smiler23 said:

At similar pellet count in the 1oz,

tss 18 #6 = 139 to Oz

Lead #4 = 135 to Oz...

So these pellet's must be similar in density each pellet? ( Is that right??) IV battered my own head looking at numbers and data with this stuff now.

So how does the tss over so much more downwind energy?? I know it's slightly smaller so less friction per pellet, but it isn't that much difference, is it due to the hardness of the shot???

I'm starting to think it's witchcraft 😂

 

Yes, it is down to less wind resistance, better ability to penetrate, and no shot deformation. 

[Smiler23]

2 hours ago, aberisle said:

For the 10 bore i now use the loads in the book "High performace 10 gauge loads" by Joe Speroni, sadly he is also now deceased, he had wide range of load data for 10 bores with pressures and velocity's listed.... much safer than wildcatting loads

Is that the guy "10gaugenut" or something like that off the USA sites?

[aberisle]

Yes it was.  His book is still available on the Refuge forum, i think  his widow is selling it or maybe one of the moderators is helping with the sales, its well worth getting

Quote

, 

 

[Guest cookoff013]

7 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I agree ABERISLE duplex loads are inherently unsafe as has been shown many many times. 

Duplexed shotshells are comercial available in the states. There are numpty reloaders everywhere.

I recently saw a post on faceache and a numpty blew up a gun by doing a steel / lead substitution. Stuffed hull with alot of powder, crammed in a lead wad, then stuffed 1,1/8oz steel. One shot and the gun blew. Bannannanna. 

Just by assuming, instead of reading.

Loading is safe with dedicated training, and good quality data.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

That is where Darwin came in!

[wymberley]

9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I've read, and re-read this thread and, all of a sudden, I've come to the thoughts that the tight pattern is, yes, partly the shot used but mainly the low velocity. That people are being bamboozled into thinking that the shot is why it shoots a tight group when in truth it is the low velocity. The long standing idea also called the "low pressure" load.

Greener and others all write of low velocity loads back in the day shooting a tight pattern. There's one writer (it may be Teasdale-Buckell or even as far far back as Hawker) who writes of some unscrupulous gunshop tricking a customer into think a gun was "tight shooting" by loading a low velocity load and shooting out the crown of an old top hat.

So for comparison I'd like to see this shot by a lead shot load of pellets at the same velocity and at the same distance with the same shot count and I think that the shot pattern would probably be as tight. As I say I read and re-read the thread and seen and re-seen the videos. My conclusion it's more that 1100 fps velocity that is the reason not the shot.

Should you be wrong, I'll eat what's left of that top hat.

[lancer425]

5 hours ago, aberisle said:

For the 10 bore i now use the loads in the book "High performace 10 gauge loads" by Joe Speroni, sadly he is also now deceased, he had wide range of load data for 10 bores with pressures and velocity's listed.... much safer than wildcatting loads

I knew him from deep woods calls forum and American waterfowler, then he went to the fuge as 10ga nut then took on his deepwoods mantle again on DHC BT justice. Some of joes best work was acctualy not on the 10ga at all but on 16ga. com. can not remember his name on there now, but he did a lot on the forum there. 16s are an underated shotgun, joe loved them.

Another couple of names from the past for you Tripleb "Clif De Stephenes. who did more work than anyone ever on the 10s. He only got in lights on drundels patterning pages here and Deep woods then the SGCATTO reloading then pit blind and DHC with some time on the fuge and Resident on ohio waterfowlers forum. .

Tripleeb did a lot of patterning and load development some can be still seen here nearly a decade after his passing.

http://shotshell.drundel.com/patterns/tripleb.htm

Look on the home page too  DUKFVR  ringbill  woodside wade c There was lots of great info and data floating about back then, i doubt it will ever get to that degree of interest again. Exiting times for steel uncertain times.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by lancer425