Covid Vaccine

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Making it an offence not to carry it?

I didn't say that (and I didn't intend to either!) - like a current driving license, passport, SCG/FAC, you don't have to carry it - but you may/will be required to produce it for certain activities/purchases/border checks etc.

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I didn't say that (and I didn't intend to either!) - like a current driving license, passport, SCG/FAC, you don't have to carry it - but you may/will be required to produce it for certain activities/purchases/border checks etc.

I can’t really see the point of having an ID card if it’s not compulsory to carry it. 🤷‍♂️

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

I can’t really see the point of having an ID card if it’s not compulsory to carry it. 🤷‍♂️

Well - you could say the same for the driving license - you must carry it when driving, but in practice - if asked for it you can turn up at a police station later (up to 5 days?).  However - it makes sense to carry it.

My concern is that you typically 'need' to carry some cards already for many activities - driving license, credit card, membership cards - and this would be just another - which is why I would prefer it to take the place of the driving license (for those so licensed).

[Raja Clavata]

I'm assuming the anti-vaxxers won't be at the front of the queue for a neuralink implant 🙂 

Holding proof of a current vaccination for yellow fever is a pre-requisite for travel into certain countries for citizens of certain other countries. It's not mandatory and you have a choice, if you choose not to go with the vaccination then you are unable to legally enter said country. Freedom of choice, I don't see the problem personally.

Regarding ID car and compulsory carry, if applied sensibly it can be incentivised to be carried by most in the majority of circumstances.

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Well - you could say the same for the driving license - you must carry it when driving, but in practice - if asked for it you can turn up at a police station later (up to 5 days?).  However - it makes sense to carry it.

My concern is that you typically 'need' to carry some cards already for many activities - driving license, credit card, membership cards - and this would be just another - which is why I would prefer it to take the place of the driving license (for those so licensed).

In this day and age it would kinda make sense for an encrypted app to be available on smart phones to cover this kind of thing. Google / Apple pay why not the same for ID.

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well - you could say the same for the driving license - you must carry it when driving, but in practice - if asked for it you can turn up at a police station later (up to 5 days?).  However - it makes sense to carry it.

My concern is that you typically 'need' to carry some cards already for many activities - driving license, credit card, membership cards - and this would be just another - which is why I would prefer it to take the place of the driving license (for those so licensed).

But unless you’re in your car the rozzers have no way of telling who you are, and that only follows if it’s your car. 
I can’t see the point in making ID cards compulsory if it’s not compulsory to carry it. Defeats the object. 

[AVB]

21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

In this day and age it would kinda make sense for an encrypted app to be available on smart phones to cover this kind of thing. Google / Apple pay why not the same for ID.

Agreed. The majority of times nowadays I don't even go out with my card clip. Everything I buy is via apple pay on the phone. 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

I can’t see the point in making ID cards compulsory

It is academic anyway - because (for the reasons given above) it isn't going to happen here. 

I don't see it as being something you have to carry in case you are stopped and asked for it.  More something you have that you can use to prove who you are (bank possibly, border check, collecting prescriptions, voting, collecting benefits/pensions - making a purchase that requires ID under (already existing) money laundering regs.  Any place where you would need to produce an ID now.  To that you could add Covid vaccination status regulations (should there be any).

Just now, AVB said:

Everything I buy is via apple pay on the phone. 

Nice idea, but I get such a high failure rate with Apple pay.  Was refused only yesterday (for £3.00 worth of groceries in local CoOp) - card not supported, but has worked in the same shop/same card on numerous occasions.  I reckon I get about 10% failures - which is not reliable enough to have as the only means to pay.

[AVB]

48 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

Nice idea, but I get such a high failure rate with Apple pay.  Was refused only yesterday (for £3.00 worth of groceries in local CoOp) - card not supported, but has worked in the same shop/same card on numerous occasions.  I reckon I get about 10% failures - which is not reliable enough to have as the only means to pay.

I’m sure I’ll get caught out at some point but I use it pretty regularly and haven’t had a rejection so far. I have a note of my card number held securely on my phone as well so could always give that if needed (as I have done in the past when card couldn’t be read and had to be entered manually) 

[Demonic69]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm assuming the anti-vaxxers won't be at the front of the queue for a neuralink implant 🙂 

That depends. If it's marketed by Apple, of course they'll be in the queue. They'd spend thousands to get their hands on it and sleep in tents for days.

If it was marketed by Microsoft it'd clearly be some form of mind control or tracking implant, and they'd have to take to Facebook to share every dodgy screenshot and FB Scientist's post to ensure we all know that they know of an expert who swears they've seen someone'd head explode.

[AVB]

12 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

That depends. If it's marketed by Apple, of course they'll be in the queue. They'd spend thousands to get their hands on it and sleep in tents for days.

If it was marketed by Microsoft it'd clearly be some form of mind control or tracking implant, and they'd have to take to Facebook to share every dodgy screenshot and FB Scientist's post to ensure we all know that they know of an expert who swears they've seen someone'd head explode.

And it would need multiple security patches and ant-virus fixes which would be ironic for a vaccination against a virus! 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is academic anyway - because (for the reasons given above) it isn't going to happen here. 

I don't see it as being something you have to carry in case you are stopped and asked for it.  More something you have that you can use to prove who you are (bank possibly, border check, collecting prescriptions, voting, collecting benefits/pensions - making a purchase that requires ID under (already existing) money laundering regs.  Any place where you would need to produce an ID now.  To that you could add Covid vaccination status regulations (should there be any).

 

You mean like a passport? Or a SGC? 🙂

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

You mean like a passport? Or a SGC? 🙂

Yes.  I only take my SGC when I may need it (such as buying cartridges, or looking at a gun for potential purchase, visiting a gun retailer/gunsmith).  Otherwise it lives safely at home.  Passport (I don't currently have one) but again I only normally carried it when travelling - or I thought I might need it for ID.  I used not to carry driving license (as I only had a paper one) and at least once many years ago have had to show it at a police station later.

Now  driving license is a card - it is easier and I do carry it more often (with my debit/credit card), but not if I'm only out locally walking etc.

ID is needed these days much more often due to money laundering regs. 

Basically i would be happy to have an ID card to carry when I saw fit - and use for ID in banks, hotels, purchasing phones, and other places where ID is required.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes.  I only take my SGC when I may need it (such as buying cartridges, or looking at a gun for potential purchase, visiting a gun retailer/gunsmith).  Otherwise it lives safely at home.  Passport (I don't currently have one) but again I only normally carried it when travelling - or I thought I might need it for ID.  I used not to carry driving license (as I only had a paper one) and at least once many years ago have had to show it at a police station later.

Now  driving license is a card - it is easier and I do carry it more often (with my debit/credit card), but not if I'm only out locally walking etc.

ID is needed these days much more often due to money laundering regs. 

Basically i would be happy to have an ID card to carry when I saw fit - and use for ID in banks, hotels, purchasing phones, and other places where ID is required.

The point I’m trying to make is that we already have oodles of examples of ID, as you e just highlighted, we don’t need another.
Granted, credit card size is great, but rather than create yet another form of ID ( some people seem to be anal regarding ID cards and why we should have them ) we could just use the ones we already have. 
Alternatively, if people seem to think an ID card is the cure of all ills, then surely chipping each child at birth ( like dogs ) is the answer, with relevant updates added as that child grows.....name, next of kin, vaccinations, qualifications, convictions, blood type; the list is almost endless. Sorted. 👍

[JohnfromUK]

25 minutes ago, Scully said:

we could just use the ones we already have.

I think we are by and large on the same hymn sheet.  I would be quite happy to have an ID card - and wish to have as few separate cards as possible.  If a single "UK citizen" card could carry multiple information (or in fact more likely a means/key to access such information from a remote server) - all the better.  Not quite so keen on the 'chip' idea - but not really able to justify why!

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think we are by and large on the same hymn sheet.  I would be quite happy to have an ID card - and wish to have as few separate cards as possible.  If a single "UK citizen" card could carry multiple information (or in fact more likely a means/key to access such information from a remote server) - all the better.  Not quite so keen on the 'chip' idea - but not really able to justify why!

Fair enough; I’m not keen on the ID card in general, in any form.......unless it’s for cyclists of course! 😃

[grrclark]

The ID card discussion is really interesting, but I hope i don’t see the day when we have a national identity card that is linked across systems, especially one that has dependencies.

I have grave concerns already at the volume of data held on individuals and the potential for abuse of that.

I also have grave concerns at our ability to keep that data secure, whether it be from hostile actors seeking to cause disruption or honest screw ups by poorly written code or poorly trained system users.

[oowee]

36 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The ID card discussion is really interesting, but I hope i don’t see the day when we have a national identity card that is linked across systems, especially one that has dependencies.

I have grave concerns already at the volume of data held on individuals and the potential for abuse of that.

I also have grave concerns at our ability to keep that data secure, whether it be from hostile actors seeking to cause disruption or honest screw ups by poorly written code or poorly trained system users.

I see where your coming from but the trend is for more data and data driven applications of all sorts. Surely it makes sense to draw together the ID we have already signed up to into a single access point?

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oowee said:

Surely it makes sense to draw together the ID we have already signed up to into a single access point?

That would be my view; If in a single place - and properly 'managed' - there is no reason why the access can't be 'compartmentalised.  Just for example - if it held say Driving License, SGC, Vaccine Status, Blood group.

• Driving license could be visible to all authorised terminals but details only accessed by traffic police
• SGC could be visible to all police, but details only accessible to Firearms branch
• Vaccine status visible to all authorised terminals
• Blood group to NHS authorised terminals/persons only

[oowee]

25 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That would be my view; If in a single place - and properly 'managed' - there is no reason why the access can't be 'compartmentalised.  Just for example - if it held say Driving License, SGC, Vaccine Status, Blood group.

• Driving license could be visible to all authorised terminals but details only accessed by traffic police
• SGC could be visible to all police, but details only accessible to Firearms branch
• Vaccine status visible to all authorised terminals
• Blood group to NHS authorised terminals/persons only

Accessed through retina scan even. 

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, Demonic69 said:

That depends. If it's marketed by Apple, of course they'll be in the queue. They'd spend thousands to get their hands on it and sleep in tents for days.

If it was marketed by Microsoft it'd clearly be some form of mind control or tracking implant, and they'd have to take to Facebook to share every dodgy screenshot and FB Scientist's post to ensure we all know that they know of an expert who swears they've seen someone'd head explode.

To be fair the Musk evangelists are pretty hardcore - in the case of Tesla evangelists some even let the car drive them to their death.

I do agree with your point though.`

[Raja Clavata]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

Fair enough; I’m not keen on the ID card in general, in any form.......unless it’s for cyclists of course! 😃

do you want your cake or do you want to eat it, lol - I had a feeling you'd bring this up 😛

in future collaborative mobility it will be incentivised for all road users to be identifiable both in real time and in retrospectively.

[Scully]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

do you want your cake or do you want to eat it, lol - I had a feeling you'd bring this up 😛

in future collaborative mobility it will be incentivised for all road users to be identifiable both in real time and in retrospectively.

😀As I’ve always said; there’s  no point in having cake if you can’t eat it! 
My hypocrisy knows no bounds......it was just a little troll! 🙂

[Raja Clavata]

44 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The ID card discussion is really interesting, but I hope i don’t see the day when we have a national identity card that is linked across systems, especially one that has dependencies.

I have grave concerns already at the volume of data held on individuals and the potential for abuse of that.

I also have grave concerns at our ability to keep that data secure, whether it be from hostile actors seeking to cause disruption or honest screw ups by poorly written code or poorly trained system users.

I think that horse has already well and truly bolted.

Interesting to see that in Europe, various governments are funding programmes around data protection to break the monopoly from large US corporations, I wonder if that's something else we'll give up in blighty in pursuit of a decent trade deal with the US.

One thing seems clear, "cash" will always be king but in the future it will increasingly be the case that data = cash.

Just now, Scully said:

😀As I’ve always said; there’s  no point in having cake if you can’t eat it! 
My hypocrisy knows no bounds......it was just a little troll! 🙂

haha, good answer 🙂 my predictive troll meter was obviously working well earlier 😛 

[discobob]

The most valuable commodity in the world now is data

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, discobob said:

The most valuable commodity in the world now is data

Absolutely this, it's difficult to overstate / value in real terms.