Anyone know anyone who has (a) died (b) died before their time due to Covid?

[Rewulf]

34 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

So the guidance seems to be the opposite of what you are saying... 

I am saying that my FIL was asked what he would like putting down as cause of death, with covid being an option.
To clarify , she never had a covid test , and had no respiratory issues that could be considered as fatal , apart from the fact that she stopped breathing when she died.
Why on earth would he make up the story ?

 

38 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

World Health Organisation guidelines stated that “COVID-19 should be recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death for ALL decedents where the disease, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death, i.e. COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death”. Such an example would be someone who has developed pneumonia as a result of COVID-19, dies from acute respiratory distress. Alternatively, COVID-19 may be present on the death certificate as a significant condition contributing to death but not the underlying cause. These guidelines are clear that in such cases these deaths “are not deaths due to COVID-19 and should not be certified as such”:

Look at the highlighted  , and see how that contradicts the rest of the statement.
Did they die OF covid related symptoms, or did they die WITH covid, as in they had a positive test , or as it clearly states, did they ASSUME covid was a cause of death ?

It clearly states (now) on any of the covid number cruncher sites , that covid deaths are recorded as death happening within 28 days of a positive test (down from 60 days during Spring)
So it doesnt really matter what the WHO guidelines are, as covid RELATED deaths in the UK have a different system of accountability.

To clarify, you dont have to die of covid or a covid related symptom or illness to be recorded as dying from covid !

[Lloyd90]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

I am saying that my FIL was asked what he would like putting down as cause of death, with covid being an option.
To clarify , she never had a covid test , and had no respiratory issues that could be considered as fatal , apart from the fact that she stopped breathing when she died.
Why on earth would he make up the story ?

I doubt he made it up, but a care worker in a care home writing down a ‘cause of death’ on their records (who as we have confirmed is not signing a death certificate) is not the deciding person of what goes on the official certificate. 
 

A doctor signs that off. The rules were relaxed (for good reason in my view) so they could speed up the process hugely, making it a lot quicker to sign off deaths and get the bodies cremated. 
 

Whilst it’s easy to shout some sort of conspiracy theories about the process  deaths being signed off, the alternative was what? To have the slow process and stack up the bodies in the hospital hallways? 
 

There are some places there are bodies stacked up. What a sad state of affairs. 

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Look at the highlighted  , and see how that contradicts the rest of the statement.
Did they die OF covid related symptoms, or did they die WITH covid, as in they had a positive test , or as it clearly states, did they ASSUME covid was a cause of death ?

It clearly states (now) on any of the covid number cruncher sites , that covid deaths are recorded as death happening within 28 days of a positive test (down from 60 days during Spring)
So it doesnt really matter what the WHO guidelines are, as covid RELATED deaths in the UK have a different system of accountability.

To clarify, you dont have to die of covid or a covid related symptom or illness to be recorded as dying from covid !

I have not had chance to look at how the U.K. is exactly recording Covid deaths so apologies. 
 

The guidance states dying with Covid but of something else should obviously  not be recorded as a Covid death. 
 

Whether that’s happening or not I’m not sure. What is the benefit of recording it as a Covid death or not? 
 

What’s the incentive for the Doctor to write Covid as the main cause of death on the death certificate? What do they gain from doing it? 
 

As we have established also, they get paid “ash cash” for signing it off regardless. So writing “Covid” or “heart failure” surely doesn’t matter?  

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I doubt he made it up, but a care worker in a care home writing down a ‘cause of death’ on their records (who as we have confirmed is not signing a death certificate) is not the deciding person of what goes on the official certificate.  Im not saying they fill out a death cert ?
 

A doctor signs that off. The rules were relaxed (for good reason in my view) so they could speed up the process hugely, making it a lot quicker to sign off deaths and get the bodies cremated. 
A doctor who goes on the say so of the nursing home staff, and probably never attends ?
 

Whilst it’s easy to shout some sort of conspiracy theories about the process  deaths being signed off, the alternative was what? To have the slow process and stack up the bodies in the hospital hallways? 
A conspiracy theory denotes something that may not be factual, but we do know this is happening.
 

There are some places there are bodies stacked up. What a sad state of affairs. Where ?

I have not had chance to look at how the U.K. is exactly recording Covid deaths so apologies. 
 

The guidance states dying with Covid but of something else should obviously  not be recorded as a Covid death. 
But it is happening , a lot ,Ive given 3 examples previously , where people had died of completely unrelated things to covid, and yet , there it is on the death cert ?
 

Whether that’s happening or not I’m not sure. What is the benefit of recording it as a Covid death or not? 
As above .

Whats the benefit, no idea , maybe hiking the figures , so everyone is scared into doing as they are told measures wise ?
 

What’s the incentive for the Doctor to write Covid as the main cause of death on the death certificate? What do they gain from doing it? 
No idea again , less paperwork?
As above , it sounds a lot more scary to the casual observer than 'died of old age at 96'
 

As we have established also, they get paid “ash cash” for signing it off regardless. So writing “Covid” or “heart failure” surely doesn’t matter?  
No argument from me on that one.
 

 

[AVB]

30 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I have not had chance to look at how the U.K. is exactly recording Covid deaths so apologies. 
 

The guidance states dying with Covid but of something else should obviously  not be recorded as a Covid death. 
 

Whether that’s happening or not I’m not sure. What is the benefit of recording it as a Covid death or not? 

The UK uses three methods of reporting covid deaths:

1) Anybody dying within 28 days of a positive test - Currently 58,448. This is the one you see on the daily news. 

2) Where death certificate mentions Covid (not necessarily as primary cause of death) This is published by the ONS- Currently 61,136

3) Excess deaths over the 5 year average - This is reported weekly so not easy to get total.

 

[Rewulf]

Deaths within 28 days of positive test by area

Total number of deaths since the start of the pandemic of people who had had a positive test result for COVID-19 and died within 28 days of the first positive test. Data from the four nations are not directly comparable as methodologies and inclusion criteria vary. Only data available for the latest reported date are shown.

Click to display contentNationClick to display contentRegionClick to display contentUpper tier LAClick to display contentLower tier LAClick to display contentAbout

Nation

Showing a table of the data

AreaSorted column (descending) - Apply ascending sort.	DeathsUnsorted column - Apply ascending sort.	Rate per 100,000 populationUnsorted column - Apply ascending sort.
Wales	2,540	80.6
Scotland	3,725	68.2
Northern Ireland	996	52.6
England	51,187	90.9

 

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate by area

Total number of deaths since the start of the pandemic of people whose death certificate mentioned COVID-19 as one of the causes. The data are published weekly by the ONS, NRS and NISRA and there is a lag in reporting of at least 11 days because the data are based on death registrations. Only data available for the latest reported date are shown.

Click to display contentNationClick to display contentRegionClick to display contentUpper tier LAClick to display contentAbout

Nation

Showing a table of the data

AreaSorted column (descending) - Apply ascending sort.	DeathsUnsorted column - Apply ascending sort.	Rate per 100,000 populationUnsorted column - Apply ascending sort.
Wales	3,230	102.4
Scotland	5,135	94
Northern Ireland	1,201	63.4
England	57,147	101.5

[Mungler]

Well, I got a call today from a client’s daughter to tell me the client had died at the weekend.

The client in his 70’s was not a well man and was diagnosed with lesions on the liver last year (Stage 4 Big C), admitted to hospital this year with pneumonia, caught Covid in hospital and knocked off his perch because of Covid.

And guess what went on the death certificate? 

I wonder what the history books will make of all of this.

And lastly, big insolvency practitioner on line pow wow today and the news is:

1. Arcadia is gone 

2. There’s 2 big hospitality chains on the way with news to follow - my money Pret and Pizza Express (but don’t forget Prezzo, Ask and don’t rule out Nandos)

3. The real pain will not manifest until Q3 2021 - we are not even at the start.

Are we at the tipping point where the cure becomes worse than the illness? 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Mungler

[AVB]

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well, I got a call today from a client’s daughter to tell me the client had died at the weekend.

The client in his 70’s was not a well man and was diagnosed with lesions on the liver last year (Stage 4 Big C), admitted to hospital this year with pneumonia, caught Covid in hospital and knocked off his perch because of Covid.

And guess what went on the death certificate? 

I wonder what the history books will make of all of this.

And lastly, big insolvency practitioner on line pow wow today and the news is:

1. Arcadia is gone 

2. There’s 2 big hospitality chains on the way with news to follow - my money Pret and Pizza Express (but don’t forget Prezzo, Ask and don’t rule out Nandos)

3. The real pain will not manifest until Q3 2021 - we are not even at the start.

Are we at the tipping point where the cure becomes worse than the illness? 

The tipping point was April 2020 imo. 

[Mungler]

12 minutes ago, AVB said:

The tipping point was April 2020 imo. 

Agreed.

I am with Martin Lewis in that basic economics should be taught in schools alongside maths and English. 

I am amazed at how ignorant people are on the circulation of money or indeed how an economy works even at a very basic level. 

I feel sorry for anyone coming out of education in the next 10 years and my 3 kids fall into this bracket. I’ve told them to stay in and go as far as they can because there won’t be any jobs waiting for them.

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, AVB said:

The tipping point was April 2020 imo. 

Oh yes !

[Scully]

40 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well, I got a call today from a client’s daughter to tell me the client had died at the weekend.

The client in his 70’s was not a well man and was diagnosed with lesions on the liver last year (Stage 4 Big C), admitted to hospital this year with pneumonia, caught Covid in hospital and knocked off his perch because of Covid.

And guess what went on the death certificate? 

I wonder what the history books will make of all of this.

And lastly, big insolvency practitioner on line pow wow today and the news is:

1. Arcadia is gone 

2. There’s 2 big hospitality chains on the way with news to follow - my money Pret and Pizza Express (but don’t forget Prezzo, Ask and don’t rule out Nandos)

3. The real pain will not manifest until Q3 2021 - we are not even at the start.

Are we at the tipping point where the cure becomes worse than the illness? 

I’m not suggesting you’re claiming otherwise, but weren’t Arcadia and Pret-a-Manger heading down the pan before the pandemic anyhow? They were certainly on the cards. Not that that is of any condolence to those involved of course. 

[AVB]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m not suggesting you’re claiming otherwise, but weren’t Arcadia and Pret-a-Manger heading down the pan before the pandemic anyhow? They were certainly on the cards. Not that that is of any condolence to those involved of course. 

Arcadia has been struggling for a while but Pret was reasonably robust. c.£50-70mln profit per annum over the past few years. They did reach out to a number of Banks in April during lockdown 1.0 for emergency funding as it has got quite a lot of debt on its books due to be repaid. I wouldn't have described it as "heading down the pan" pre-pandemic. 

A friend of mine is an insolvency brief for one of the magic circle firms. Football clubs and Universities are what are keeping him busy at the moment.    

[Scully]

Fair enough. Are you saying Prets problems are due to the pandemic then? I know much was made of Sainsbury’s closing its in store deli counters, and some claimed it was due to the pandemic, but a retail journalist on R4 said it had nothing to do with the pandemic and everything to do with the way people shopped. 

[AVB]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Fair enough. Are you saying Prets problems are due to the pandemic then? I know much was made of Sainsbury’s closing its in store deli counters, and some claimed it was due to the pandemic, but a retail journalist on R4 said it had nothing to do with the pandemic and everything to do with the way people shopped. 

I haven't looked at their finances in detail but revenues had grown steadily over the past 10 years, gross profit margin was steady at about 48%. Like many companies it had a fair chunk of debt on its books (it bought the Eat chain in 2018 iirc) but nothing to set alarm bells off. Considering the massive impact Covid has had on the high street and in particular the passing office trade I would definitely attribute their problems to Covid. Arcadia is very different. 

[Dave-G]

I don't know anyone who has died of covid - or claimed covid. Having said that I doing some serious shielding which doesn't overly bother me because I'm a Billy-No-Mates kind of bloke anyway.

[shootgun]

My former GP of Violet Lane Medical practice in Croydon, died of Covid-19 age 57...

Few familly members (living abroad i might add) had it, but fortunately wasn't too bad for them

[Medic1281]

It’s a very strange virus. Some people don’t know they’ve got it, some 100+ yr olds get it and survive with no issues, yet I’ve taken relatively fit 30 somethings into hospital that have died from it. For most people it’s nothing to worry about, but for the few it gets hold of, it’s horrendous. I certainly don’t want it.
I’m seeing so much more of it now too, we had nothing in the first wave, but this second wave is awful. I’m sure though that it was here well before the official first cases happened in this country. Last winter we had lots of flu type symptoms in A&E that were really poorly, but they all tested negative to the flu. I’m sure now that it was COVID. 

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, Medic1281 said:

I’m sure though that it was here well before the official first cases happened in this country. Last winter we had lots of flu type symptoms in A&E that were really poorly, but they all tested negative to the flu. I’m sure now that it was COVID. 

I appreciate that opinion, coming from a medical professional , I share the view, but...
If it WAS  here last year (I believe I had it in December) where are all the deaths then , the ones that seemed to explode out of nowhere in March and April, and then rapidly died off in June ?
Plus if its been around so long , probably globally , with most seemingly asymptomatic, doesnt it necessarily follow that there is a huge percentage of the population that have some (herd) immunity ?
As discussed earlier , many deaths seem to be attributed to covid , when there is little or indeed NO evidence to suggest that to be the case ?

[ordnance]

23 hours ago, Mungler said:

Well, I got a call today from a client’s daughter to tell me the client had died at the weekend.

The client in his 70’s was not a well man and was diagnosed with lesions on the liver last year (Stage 4 Big C), admitted to hospital this year with pneumonia, caught Covid in hospital and knocked off his perch because of Covid.

And guess what went on the death certificate? 

I wonder what the history books will make of all of this.

And lastly, big insolvency practitioner on line pow wow today and the news is:

1. Arcadia is gone 

2. There’s 2 big hospitality chains on the way with news to follow - my money Pret and Pizza Express (but don’t forget Prezzo, Ask and don’t rule out Nandos)

3. The real pain will not manifest until Q3 2021 - we are not even at the start.

Are we at the tipping point where the cure becomes worse than the illness? 

I would assume Covid as that was what killed him, he could still be alive if he had not caught CV. 

[treetree]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

I would assume Covid as that was what killed him, he could still be alive if he had not caught CV. 

How much longer would you have expected the poor man with stage 4 cancer and pneumonia to have lived for? How could they possibly differentiate between pneumonia or covid killing him?

Another case of 'with covid' not 'of covid'.

[ordnance]

45 minutes ago, treetree said:

How much longer would you have expected the poor man with stage 4 cancer and pneumonia to have lived for? How could they possibly differentiate between pneumonia or covid killing him?

Another case of 'with covid' not 'of covid'.

How much longer he had to live is irrelevant to the cause of death, i would go with the expertise of the doctors on the cause.  

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, Medic1281 said:

It’s a very strange virus. Some people don’t know they’ve got it, some 100+ yr olds get it and survive with no issues, yet I’ve taken relatively fit 30 somethings into hospital that have died from it. For most people it’s nothing to worry about, but for the few it gets hold of, it’s horrendous. I certainly don’t want it.
I’m seeing so much more of it now too, we had nothing in the first wave, but this second wave is awful. I’m sure though that it was here well before the official first cases happened in this country. Last winter we had lots of flu type symptoms in A&E that were really poorly, but they all tested negative to the flu. I’m sure now that it was COVID. 

I went for a chest X-ray autumn last year because I inexplicably couldn’t catch my breath. X-ray showed nothing, quack shrugged and said ‘it’s a virus’ and I got steroids and antibiotics.

It was the weirdest thing - it just felt like I couldn’t absorb oxygen through breathing.

The eldest went to Uni this year - 10 in the same halls (same floor) and 9 get Covid (asymptotic) and he doesn’t. One wonders if he got it earlier...

 

3 hours ago, ordnance said:

I would assume Covid as that was what killed him, he could still be alive if he had not caught CV. 

Don’t be daft. 

 

5 minutes ago, ordnance said:

How much longer he had to live is irrelevant to the cause of death, i would go with the expertise of the doctors on the cause.  

You are being deliberately obtuse. If you can’t see it, I can assure you everyone else can.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mungler

[treetree]

6 minutes ago, ordnance said:

How much longer he had to live is irrelevant to the cause of death, i would go with the expertise of the doctors on the cause.  

But how would they know he died of covid rather than pneumonia? Very important when one of those causes has been used to destroy an economy

[ordnance]

 

Quote

 

I would assume Covid as that was what killed him, he could still be alive if he had not caught CV. 

Don’t be daft.

 

 How do you know if he would have survived or not, crystal ball ?

 

 5 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

Quote

 

How much longer he had to live is irrelevant to the cause of death, i would go with the expertise of the doctors on the cause.  

You are being deliberately obtuse. If you can’t see it, I can assure you everyone else can

 

You know everyone's view, how do know that ? 

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, treetree said:

But how would they know he died of covid rather than pneumonia? Very important when one of those causes has been used to destroy an economy

Good effort but you’re wasting your time. 

[treetree]

8 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

You are being deliberately obtuse. If you can’t see it, I can assure you everyone else can.

And this is what I can't get my head around; otherwise intelligent people with good common sense are still buying this nonsense. I just don't get it.