Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Stonepark]

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s very strange to think he actually believes the Kremlin regurgitated guff he knocks out.

Some of the grammar and text reads like it’s from an information ministry script - how anyone can say that Putin has done anything in good faith and with a straight face is beyond me.

All very worrying that sone are so easily brainwashed. And to the extent of having their own moral compasses and ability to weigh right from wrong, washed clean away.

Mungler, you keep attacking me personally, attempting ostracization, deplatforming and cancelling by suggesting my concerns and views are not legitimate.

Fear not, I stand strong and will happily keep discussing the matter and bringing independent thoughts and views to the discussion.

[Mungler]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You must have missed this bit then? 

 

I speculated that there was more to it that isn't common knowledge , is that really too hard to swallow ?

You try to fit the narrative to your opinion,  and it's you that ends up speculating Wildly, putin couldn't handle 2 years of lockdown?

I'm sure he could find something to amuse himself!

Are you actually saying flat out , the US had nothing to do with the coup?

Your bottom line is that the US must carry some blame in this and that there must have been something that happened that we’re not privy to trigger this.

You have no evidence of causation - US meddling (whatever that means) and which is not admitted, does not automatically give rise to a wholesale invasion or justify hundreds of thousands dying.

You know I’m a big fan of Hitchens and you know what happens to an assertion backed with zero evidence? It goes in the bin. Besides if we’re punting zero fact based assertions then I favour my assertion of Putin going potty in isolation and wanting to stitch the Russian empire back together like Peter the Great and that’s because there is some evidence he’s isolated himself to the extreme and there’s lots of medical evidence that that’s not good for mental health.

Lastly, all this talk of the US being responsible or having a hand in this…. where is that present here?

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Mungler, you keep attacking me personally, attempting ostracization, deplatforming and cancelling by suggesting my concerns and views are not legitimate.

Fear not, I stand strong and will happily keep discussing the matter and bringing independent thoughts and views to the discussion.

 

You’re bonkers. You’re lost down the bonkers rabbit hole, never to return.

Life is a numbers game. Take a random sample of 1000 people and statistically you’ll get a number who are just bonkers. Unavoidable. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

bringing independent thoughts and views to the discussion.

I believe you forgot irrational and devoid of any commonsense.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, treetree said:

Some months back we were told Russia was taking the microchips out of dishwashers and fridges for weapons systems.

It's part of a cynical attempt to show the gullible public that sanctions are hurting Russia  when in reality the sanctions are hurting us more.

That furphy.  All the memes of tractors and DJI drones , don't see much of them anymore.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Your bottom line is that the US must carry some blame in this and that there must have been something that happened that we’re not privy to trigger this.

You have no evidence of causation - US meddling (whatever that means) and which is not admitted, does not automatically give rise to a wholesale invasion or justify hundreds of thousands dying.

You know I’m a big fan of Hitchens and you know what happens to an assertion backed with zero evidence? It goes in the bin. Besides if we’re punting zero fact based assertions then I favour my assertion of Putin going potty in isolation and wanting to stitch the Russian empire back together like Peter the Great and that’s because there is some evidence he’s isolated himself to the extreme and there’s lots of medical evidence that that’s not good for mental health.

Lastly, all this talk of the US being responsible or having a hand in this…. where is that present here?

People like to talk hard. But having spent a few winters in that region at minus 25+ it can kill you very quickly. When people are hungry and cold they will do anything. Mentally preparing your self is not the same as freezing or starving.

15 hours ago, Gordon R said:

This has everything in common with your posts.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't recall Putin offering a complete end to the war and negotiating. 

 

No he didn't and not many countries in conflict end war and then start negotiations. Most of them negotiate, that breaks down, conflict starts, negotiations start, conflict continues as they try to work out the best deal. If that doesn't eventuate, conflict continues and then there is an unconditional surrender.

[mchughcb]

This banned on Youtube, but reminds me of the US backed Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, the YPK in Iraq, the Free Syrians in Syria, the South Vietnamese in Vietnam. 

 

Israeli TV channel INN made a cartoon called "What Europe supports must stay in Europe" (bitchute.com)

 

Music Bristol by Harry Rais.

[Rem260]

17 hours ago, Stonepark said:

And the sad thing is that we are the reasonable ones, merely asking questions and considering other view points, rather than slavishly following the propaganda being fed to the population on a daily basis.

Countries representing over 4 Billion people have refused to endorse the USA\Wests approach to Ukraine, Russia has markets trading partners and export markets, we are simply cutting off our noses to spite our faces over a country that we (in the West) have chosen to sacrifice on the alter if trying to stop a multi polar world.

Which bastions of peace and democracy would these be.  

[mchughcb]

When I was working in India, they told me constantly that India is the world's biggest democracy.

Unfortunately its also one of the most corrupt.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

When I was working in India, they told me constantly that India is the world's biggest democracy.

Unfortunately its also one of the most corrupt.

 

When I was working in Australia, they told me constantly that Australia is the world's biggest democracy.

Unfortunately its also one of the most corrupt.

I've got the hang of this now. Just pick a country at random and insert it into your meaningless post.

[mchughcb]

That was a reply to Rem 260 about the democratic countries that have not voted against the Russian action. India is one of those democracies and is the most populous. https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/10/22/the-worlds-7-largest-democracies-where-do-america-and-india-fit/

However as this article points out, it's also a flawed democracy.

[Gordon R]

Just what has India got to do with Russia invading the Ukraine?

[Mungler]

29 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Just what has India got to do with Russia invading the Ukraine?

You may well wonder 😆😆

Bonkerooney. 

[Gordon R]

Upside down thinking.

[Rewulf]

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

Your bottom line is that the US must carry some blame in this and that there must have been something that happened that we’re not privy to trigger this.

You have no evidence of causation - US meddling (whatever that means) and which is not admitted, does not automatically give rise to a wholesale invasion or justify hundreds of thousands dying

I don't know why you keep repeating yourself, I've stated quite clearly the evidence of causation, but you say it doesn't justify invasion, to which I agreed with you? 

 

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Upside down thinking.

Here's some more of that. 

As soon as Ukraine gained independence, USAID poured billions into the country to 'bring democracy' 

During Maidan, they poured hundreds of millions into the protests. 

After the coup, they spent further billions on weapons and training for Ukraines army. An army designed to fight the US 's sworn enemy. 

Before Russia invaded, any attempts at peace talks were ignored or disrupted, Biden even said, they wouldnt get any more involved than they already were, green lighting the invasion! 

The US/NATO could have helped prevent this, they did nothing but pour petrol on the fire. 

But there are those here, who assert the US/NATO  has nothing to do with this conflict? 

Are they wholly responsible? No. But they are certainly not blameless. 

And before you all jump on and shout,' It doesn't justify an invasion! 'I've already agreed with that. 

But Russia thought it did, and the US knew this very well. 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Rewulf

[Gordon R]

Quote

Before Russia invaded, any attempts at peace talks were ignored or disrupted,

Interesting point. What was the need for peace talks before Russia invaded?

[ordnance]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

An elected democratic government aligning with Russia should not nessitate a coup and civil war, but the Neocons mainly in the USA decided differently.....  as a bonus they got somewhere to make lots of money from... Both from weapon supply and washing corrupt bribes and payments.

Citizens of the Former Ukranian of Dombass opted to go their own way, why should they abandon their lands, houses and families and hop over the border when they could govern themselves indepently of Kiev?

This is about Pepe's sovereignty and choices, accept an illegal undemocratic government or take control of your own destiny.

I understand why it is difficult to acknowledge that the Dombass choosing seccesssion is legitimate given the stability we have had in the UK but the Republic of Ireland was part of the UK, we tried civil war for a number of years but in the end up allowed it's independence, Ukraine was in the similar position with the Dombass yet have "chosen" to fight this change.

 

The Donbass is part of Ukraine it's the same country, do you not see the difference 🤔

Edited October 23, 2022 by ordnance

[Stonepark]

20 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The Donbass is part of Ukraine it's the same country, do you not see the difference 🤔

So you are saying Taiwan is part of China, the Republic of Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, Bosnia is part of Serbia, etc.

I am sure those people of the aforementioned countries will not be happy when you tell them that like Dombass, any choice they made to self govern is illigitimate and you are prepared to support their former parent countries retake their countries by force, no matter how they feel about it.

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

So you are saying Taiwan is part of China, the Republic of Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, Bosnia is part of Serbia, etc.

I am sure those people of the aforementioned countries will not be happy when you tell them that like Dombass, any choice they made to self govern is illigitimate and you are prepared to support their former parent countries retake their countries by force, no matter how they feel about it.

The Donbass was annexed form Ukraine by Russia in a undercover military operation. The people in the Donbass did not have a free and fair vote to leave Ukraine.

Edited October 23, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Interesting point. What was the need for peace talks before Russia invaded?

If you don't talk about peace when tensions rise, then conflict is inevitable. 

If you don't, or refuse to talk about peace, then conflict is intended. 

Minsk 1 and 2 were the efforts to alleviate the Donbass situation, they failed, mostly because Ukraine couldn't control its far right militias. 

There were no attempts to alleviate the tension when Russia massed troops on the border for 3 months. 

Read into that what you will. 

[welsh1]

Nothing is inevitable until it happens.

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If you don't talk about peace when tensions rise, then conflict is inevitable. 

If you don't, or refuse to talk about peace, then conflict is intended. 

Minsk 1 and 2 were the efforts to alleviate the Donbass situation, they failed, mostly because Ukraine couldn't control its far right militias. 

There were no attempts to alleviate the tension when Russia massed troops on the border for 3 months. 

Read into that what you will. 

And I assume you have evidence that talks failed because Ukraine couldn't control it's far right militias, or am I assuming to much?

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If you don't talk about peace when tensions rise, then conflict is inevitable. 

If you don't, or refuse to talk about peace, then conflict is intended. 

Minsk 1 and 2 were the efforts to alleviate the Donbass situation, they failed, mostly because Ukraine couldn't control its far right militias. 

There were no attempts to alleviate the tension when Russia massed troops on the border for 3 months. 

Read into that what you will. 

There were plenty of attempts to alleviate the tensions, western leaders were tripping over themselves to go to Moscow and lick Putin's Boots. As the British defence secretary of stated there was a whiff of Munich about it, he was correct all it did was convince Putin the west was weak. There is a whiff of Munich on the forum from some.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by ordnance

[Stonepark]

13 hours ago, ordnance said:

The Donbass was annexed form Ukraine by Russia in a undercover military operation. The people in the Donbass did not have a free and fair vote to leave Ukraine.

The Donbass held referendums and whilst not perfect or "internationally approved"  (hint... they were never going to be), were certainly not any less fair than say the 2020 US election with it's suppression of Hunters Bidens laptop and ballot stuffing and allowed the formation of the Donbass republics and their seccession from Ukraine. Russian troops appeared in numbers a few months later.

Funny how nobody mentions all the Nato and US "training advisors" and "arms supplies" which were in Ukraine and the Donbass before and during the war... it's almost like they didn't exist and weren't undertaking a Western "undercover military operation" to take over the Ukrainian goverment and take back the Dombass......

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/eastern-ukraine-referendum-donetsk-luhansk

The Guardian article is certainly worth a read as it was written at the time and tries to report both sides, rather than soley the current "Ukraine only" bias the same newspaper has.

[Stonepark]

10 hours ago, ordnance said:

There is a whiff of Munich on the forum from some.

Anyone who supports those trying to impose an illegal government, now dictatorship, on a population that has chosen to govern itself and now join with others for protection, certainly have the whiff.