Another choke question

[JohnfromUK]

I found in (very limited) experiments at 40 yards with large paper sheets that it could make about 1/4 different (i.e. the tightest was 1/4 choke tighter than the most open) and fibre were consistently more open than plastic.  My old (1920) fixed choke gun patterned to near enough it's nominal measured IC and 1/4 with Hull 1 oz fibre, but slightly tighter than 1/2 and about 1/4 with SMI Mini (a plastic 1 oz cartridge of the era)

In my (limited) experience nominal 1/4 choke can pattern from near improved cylinder actual patterns to near half choke patterns.  If follows that if you particularly desire/feel you need a pattern in 1/8 increments, you would need to stick to a particular 'proven tested' cartridge to be sure of achieving what you want/expect.

I only have one multi choke gun - and I honestly can't remember what is in it between 1/2 and 1/4.  I have never changed them (but do remove for cleaning occasionally). It does the job I want, which is all I need.

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I found in (very limited) experiments at 40 yards with large paper sheets that it could make about 1/4 different (i.e. the tightest was 1/4 choke tighter than the most open) and fibre were consistently more open than plastic.  My old (1920) fixed choke gun patterned to near enough it's nominal measured IC and 1/4 with Hull 1 oz fibre, but slightly tighter than 1/2 and about 1/4 with SMI Mini (a plastic 1 oz cartridge of the era)

In my (limited) experience nominal 1/4 choke can pattern from near improved cylinder actual patterns to near half choke patterns.  If follows that if you particularly desire/feel you need a pattern in 1/8 increments, you would need to stick to a particular 'proven tested' cartridge to be sure of achieving what you want/expect.

I only have one multi choke gun - and I honestly can't remember what is in it between 1/2 and 1/4.  I have never changed them (but do remove for cleaning occasionally). It does the job I want, which is all I need.

I haven't done any of the above. The only time I have shot at paper targets with a shotgun ( and I’ve done it twice in maybe 40 years ) and with no particular cartridge, was to see WHERE the pattern printed in relation to the sight picture, and both times with trap guns. 
I honestly don’t know what is to be gained by proving ( other than telling Teague they’ve got it wrong ) a 3/8th is in fact 2/8th or in fact 4/8th. It’s not like one will guarantee a hit over another. 
It’s what works for each of us, and I’ve found that these work for me. The same could be said regarding a particular cartridge through any particular choke; it’s all subjective.

A mate won’t entertain any cartridge other than Black Gold through his skeet/skeet choked Baikel, which he uses to great effect on game, and on the odd occasion clays. 🤷‍♂️

[wymberley]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

Would that make a difference?
Like I said, I’m assuming Teague/Briley have already done this, otherwise what’s the point? I have nothing more to go on to claim the 3/8th choke is what it claims to be, other than that is what I ordered. 
I don’t know of anyone who has the time ( nor the inclination ) to test to ascertain what pattern any particular choke is throwing with a multitude of cartridges. Most folk just want to go out and shoot. 
 

Obviously it won't make any difference to the pattern. The difference that it does make and it's a biggy, is that you then know how your gun is shooting. It matters not a jot what Briley, Teague or any other maker has produced unless they made it to pattern as per in YOUR gun. Each to his own, but I've always thought that knowing how your gun/cartridge performs is part and parcel of shooting and particularly so if shooting live quarry.

If I hadn't patterned some fibre Stone Dead cartridges in the Maxus I'd have never of known what the over-boring was doing to the fibre wads. No matter what choke I could get nothing but a blown TC and balling rendering the situation hopeless. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by wymberley

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

The only time I have shot at paper targets with a shotgun

It was a long time ago - and perhaps the biggest lesson learned is that it is hard work and very time consuming to do properly! 

The second lesson was that the cartridge makes more difference that a 1/4 of choke, and since that time I have been 'relaxed' about choke, but stick to a cartridge I know where possible.

[Scully]

12 hours ago, wymberley said:

Obviously it won't make any difference to the pattern. The difference that it does make and it's a biggy, is that you then know how your gun is shooting. It matters not a jot what Briley, Teague or any other maker has produced unless they made it to pattern as per in YOUR gun. Each to his own, but I've always thought that knowing how your gun/cartridge performs is part and parcel of shooting and particularly so if shooting live quarry.

If I hadn't patterned some fibre Stone Dead cartridges in the Maxus I'd have never of known what the over-boring was doing to the fibre wads. No matter what choke I could get nothing but a blown TC and balling rendering the situation hopeless. 

But that’s clearly not the case is it? It matters greatly what Teague, Briley etc do, otherwise their chokes wouldn’t sell. 
The 3/8th choke ( and all the others )  I ‘ve bought, certainly do the job. It matters not if it turns out to be 2/8th with one cartridge or 4/8th with another. None of them as far as I know specify what cartridge they use to pattern any given restriction. Or do they? 
The trap guns I use throw very tight patterns, and there is much conjecture and varying claims amongst friends just exactly what the constriction in one of them actually is, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, but it works impressively well. 
I’m not about ( and just don’t see the point ) in testing a stated constriction to see if it actually is what it claims to be. What exactly would be the point? What difference would it make to my shooting?  If it’s one thing with one cartridge and another with another, what difference is it going to make to anyones shooting? If I ***** a bird or miss it completely, it won’t be the choke, and certainly not because that after testing it turns out to be an 8th out. 
As we all know, shooting is very much a mind game, and if you shoot well with a certain cartridge through a certain choke, why would you care if it actually is what it claims to be? I can understand how an engineer could be obsessed with such things, but that’s what we pay companies like Teague and Briley for, so we can just go out and shoot. 

[Scully]

12 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It was a long time ago - and perhaps the biggest lesson learned is that it is hard work and very time consuming to do properly! 

The second lesson was that the cartridge makes more difference that a 1/4 of choke, and since that time I have been 'relaxed' about choke, but stick to a cartridge I know where possible.

There you go; we find a cartridge and choke which delivers, and stick to it when it matters, which is why I mostly stick to SIPE 5’s for my game shooting, through the same choke but sometimes in different guns. 
I’ve had other impressive combinations of course, and of course the odd occasion when the SIPE 5’s just didn’t seem to work, but that would be down to me, and not the choke or the cartridge.
As shooters we’re always looking to blame something for an off day, or to give us that edge, but neither exist. It’s us. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

It’s us

I think that (a big) part of it is confidence.  I know people who change choke tubes between almost every stand; others who select different cartridges for different barrels on different stands.  They 'need' it not for the pattern, but for their confidence (in my personal view).  They convince themselves that without this choke, or this cartridge they are at a disadvantage.

After near enough 50 years shooting (I think) I know enough that my gun (typically between IC and 1/2), and any cartridge (typically 1 oz felt wad) I have will 'do it's part of the job'.  Sometimes I myself don't do my part very well - and you say, it's me - not the gun or cartridge.

 

 

[enfieldspares]

13 hours ago, Scully said:

I don’t know of anyone who has the time ( nor the inclination ) to test to ascertain what pattern any particular choke is throwing with a multitude of cartridges. Most folk just want to go out and shoot. 
 

The only time I've had it done was by Powell's (when Peter and David Powell still owned it in Carrs Lane) and the patterning was done at the Proof House at twenty yards. I also had it done by Elderkin but again the patterning was done at twenty yards. I know of few places that have access close to where they do the actual boring than Holland's at Northwood and Westley Richards old place near the Birmingham University. For the most part I also trust to what I've asked the gun to be bored out to.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, enfieldspares said:

For the most part I also trust to what I've asked the gun to be bored out to.

Which is wise in many ways.  Patterning can however show how different choices of cartridge, wads etc do make quite a big difference.  In the event that there is a 'combination that doesn't match well', this can be found.

The trouble I had with my patterning was that it was quite difficult to 'manage' because there are several stages which all have their challenges.

1. You need a measured 40 yards to do it properly - which needs to be safe, flat, and easily walked (as you are going to do a lot of walking). I used a large field.
2. You need a support for a (in my case brown paper from large old paper sacks opened out) targets which needs to be large - I think I used 48" square, but bigger would have been better; this is hard to manage unless it is dead still as the paper is like a sail!  I used a large cardboard box based structure pegged down as a support.
3. You then shoot cartridges with a known load (I used 1 oz of No 6) at the target from a pre dirtied barrel (clean barrels may throw a different pattern).  I did (I think 2 or 3 separate shots per barrel, a new paper for each shot).  I think I did 12 + papers in total
4. Having ended up (quite a time later) with a large pile of sheets of perforated paper - you go home to use a large table!
5. Start by drawing a 30" circle around the centre of the pattern (as seen by eye) on each target.
6. Count the holes (pellet strikes) inside the circle. 
7. Calculate the percentage in the 30" circle (since you know the total number of pellets fired).  That gives the effective 'choke' that applies to that barrel and cartridge.
8. It is also worth using a circle (such as a tin lid) to see how many 'holes' are in the pattern, and look at it for such things as hollow centre area, uneven distribution.

To do this for a few brands of cartridges, both barrels, different choke tubes ............. is a really dedicated and long winded exercise.

Patterning at closer range is good to see mean point of impact, evenness and quality of pattern, but gets pretty hard to do the count method, particularly on dense patterns as the individual strikes are hard to determine.

[wymberley]

One could argue that whoever coined the phrase, 'pattern', didn't do us any favours no matter how convenient it is. Yep, 172 pellets of 1&1/16 oz No6 in the 30" is a half choke pattern as is 229 of 1&1/8 oz of No7. My gun is 1/2 choke is much easier to say as is, 'pattern kills'. Again, convenient. However, pattern doesn't kill; pellets do. I'm not too fussed what 'choke' my gun is as what I really want to know is are the number of pellets in the central effective area of the pellet spread sufficient to cleanly kill any particular quarry. For my money, that's confidence.

6 test shots per barrel is the recommended figure for a field pattern test - 10 for research purposes.

Pattern a gun at 20 yards and it's odds on that doing it again at the usual 40 is going to be interesting.

[ditchman]

im led to believe that "super full" choke is also known in the USA as "turkey"

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, ditchman said:

im led to believe that "super full" choke is also known in the USA as "turkey"

Needed for the 'Texas heart shots'.

[enfieldspares]

11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Which is wise in many ways.  Patterning can however show how different choices of cartridge, wads etc do make quite a big difference.  In the event that there is a 'combination that doesn't match well', this can be found.

The trouble I had with my patterning was that it was quite difficult to 'manage' because there are several stages which all have their challenges.

1. You need a measured 40 yards to do it properly - which needs to be safe, flat, and easily walked (as you are going to do a lot of walking). I used a large field.
2. You need a support for a (in my case brown paper from large old paper sacks opened out) targets which needs to be large - I think I used 48" square, but bigger would have been better; this is hard to manage unless it is dead still as the paper is like a sail!  I used a large cardboard box based structure pegged down as a support.
3. You then shoot cartridges with a known load (I used 1 oz of No 6) at the target from a pre dirtied barrel (clean barrels may throw a different pattern).  I did (I think 2 or 3 separate shots per barrel, a new paper for each shot).  I think I did 12 + papers in total
4. Having ended up (quite a time later) with a large pile of sheets of perforated paper - you go home to use a large table!
5. Start by drawing a 30" circle around the centre of the pattern (as seen by eye) on each target.
6. Count the holes (pellet strikes) inside the circle. 
7. Calculate the percentage in the 30" circle (since you know the total number of pellets fired).  That gives the effective 'choke' that applies to that barrel and cartridge.
8. It is also worth using a circle (such as a tin lid) to see how many 'holes' are in the pattern, and look at it for such things as hollow centre area, uneven distribution.

To do this for a few brands of cartridges, both barrels, different choke tubes ............. is a really dedicated and long winded exercise.

Patterning at closer range is good to see mean point of impact, evenness and quality of pattern, but gets pretty hard to do the count method, particularly on dense patterns as the individual strikes are hard to determine.

This. And correct. Twenty yards is a poor, poor, substitute for forty yards.

Edited October 15, 2022 by enfieldspares

[countryman]

Well got the new gun, Miroku mk11 , fits me perfectly and I have quarter and half choke in, other than some practice swings I have not had a chance yet on some clays, hopefully next week if I can skip some work. With out doubt the prettiest Gun I will ever miss with. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On 14/10/2022 at 19:27, Scully said:

Would that make a difference?
Like I said, I’m assuming Teague/Briley have already done this, otherwise what’s the point? I have nothing more to go on to claim the 3/8th choke is what it claims to be, other than that is what I ordered. 
I don’t know of anyone who has the time ( nor the inclination ) to test to ascertain what pattern any particular choke is throwing with a multitude of cartridges. Most folk just want to go out and shoot. 

Because the degree of choke is dependent on the diameter of your barrels!

[Scully]

9 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Because the degree of choke is dependent on the diameter of your barrels!

I understand that, but Teague have designed and manufactured that choke to precision fit specifically the barrel diameter for that particular model. 
This must apply to the slim 3/8th for my Gamba and a 3/8th ported extended ( simply because it looks cool! 🙂) for my Perazzi; they aren’t interchangeable. 
I’m assuming the 3/8th Briley in my self loader was designed specifically to throw a 3/8th pattern from the barrel diameter of that particular model also. 🤷‍♂️

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I understand that, but Teague have designed and manufactured that choke to precision fit specifically the barrel diameter for that particular model. 
This must apply to the slim 3/8th for my Gamba and a 3/8th ported extended ( simply because it looks cool! 🙂) for my Perazzi; they aren’t interchangeable. 
I’m assuming the 3/8th Briley in my self loader was designed specifically to throw a 3/8th pattern from the barrel diameter of that particular model also. 🤷‍♂️

Yes, or close enough to it, with whatever guns and cartridges were used in the production work up trials. With regard to your specific gun and load, there's only one way to find out.

[Scully]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

Yes, or close enough to it, with whatever guns and cartridges were used in the production work up trials. With regard to your specific gun and load, there's only one way to find out.

And we’ve come full circle, because I don’t need to. That is what I’ve paid Teague and Briley for. 🙂

It’s akin to those people who insist you need to ‘shoot in’ a rifle barrel, when Sako, Remington, Blaser ( insert name of preferred barrel manufacturer here ) etc have already done everything necessary so you can just go out and shoot. 🤷‍♂️

[TIGHTCHOKE]

But it isn't as simple as that, it all depends upon the measurements of the barrel that you are using.

[wymberley]

32 minutes ago, Scully said:

And we’ve come full circle, because I don’t need to. That is what I’ve paid Teague and Briley for. 🙂

It’s akin to those people who insist you need to ‘shoot in’ a rifle barrel, when Sako, Remington, Blaser ( insert name of preferred barrel manufacturer here ) etc have already done everything necessary so you can just go out and shoot. 🤷‍♂️

What we pay them for is to produce some chokes the designation and dimensions of which match the long held standard measurements but in their view their design offers a better and more consistent pattern than does the gun makers' version while working within the set parameters.

[JohnfromUK]

39 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But it isn't as simple as that, it all depends upon the measurements of the barrel that you are using.

Not strictly so (but admittedly a good working apoproximation).  I quote;

"Shotgun choke can be definitively determined only at the pattern plates and in relation to a specific cartridge. Measurement of constriction alone can be misleading".

Percentage of pellets inside
30in circle at 40yd

True Cylinder     30-40

Improved           50

Quarter             55

Half                  60

Three-quarters   65

Full                   70-75

Super full           76+

The constriction to produce these percentages will depend on the gun (bore diameter, barrel boring profile, forcing cones etc.) and also on the cartridge being used for the measurement.  The barrels (or choke tubes) can be bored based on measured diameters/constrictions alone, but the actual pattern percentages will vary a bit with cartridge.  For interchangeable choke tubes, I assume the likes of Teague have a nominal size based on the average 'new state' barrel diameter.

IF you really want to know what percentage patterns you are getting (and I for one don't) you need to pattern with the gun/choke tube/cartridge you plan to use.  I am personally quite happy with a micrometer based measurement (stated in the form of 'approximate choke'.)  Patterning trials are interesting, but very time consuming and I don't need to know the result with accuracy.

[Scully]

52 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But it isn't as simple as that, it all depends upon the measurements of the barrel that you are using.

But it is! None of that matters at all to the average shooter, and certainly doesn’t make one iota of difference to his shooting! 
 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

None of that matters at all to the average shooter, and certainly doesn’t make one iota of difference to his shooting!

Agreed, - as I say, a good working approximation and one I'm very happy to go with. 

But strictly the (those) figures apply to 12 bore only - and we agreed before - finding a cartridge that does the job nicely in your gun is really the goal.

[Scully]

41 minutes ago, wymberley said:

What we pay them for is to produce some chokes the designation and dimensions of which match the long held standard measurements but in their view their design offers a better and more consistent pattern than does the gun makers' version while working within the set parameters.

And yet again, none of which matters a scrap to the average shooter! None of it makes the difference between a hit and a miss on a moving target at a guesstimated distance travelling at who knows what speed, in the field or on a peg! 
An oft’ asked question at a shoot is ‘What chokes have you got in?’ To which the typical reply is ‘Quarter and half’, and that’s end of conversation usually. No one in my experience goes on to say….’ Are you sure? Have you patterned it at 40yds repeatedly, with a specific cartridge and counted the number of pellets in a 30” circle?’ Have you taken the type of wad into account?’
I’ll give you three guesses at what the answer would be. 
What happens is that after years of shooting experience, a shooter happens upon a cartridge which gives them confidence in the field, often on the advice of someone they’ve seen folding up bird after bird, and then they are told they use a particular make and constriction of choke, but as we’re all different in style, experience and capability, it doesn’t necessarily transfer.

I’ve found the cartridges and choke combination which give me the most confidence and best results in the field and if Mr Teague or Briley tells me the choke I prefer to shoot with is 3/8th, then I’m not about to say ‘are you sure?’ Simply because I don’t need to. The choke may prove to be 1/8th this way or that with my cartridge choice,  or a different cartridge. But would that make a difference to my shooting? No. 

Has anyones shooting been improved by repeated patterning at a given distance with a specific cartridge? There are so many potential and actual variables at play that it can’t possibly be so. 
I really do get frustrated by those who insist on making matters as complicated as possible, especially when none of it makes one scrap of difference to one’s shooting. I just don’t get it. 

 

32 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Agreed, - as I say, a good working approximation and one I'm very happy to go with. 

 - finding a cartridge that does the job nicely in your gun is really the goal.

Agreed. 👍

[wymberley]

38 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

finding a cartridge that does the job nicely in your gun is really the goal.

Absolutely.