Ideal gun weight

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, enfieldspares said:

A trend, I fear, much encouraged by the You Tube offerings of a Mr Carrie...and IMHO an unwelcome trend.

Entirely agree, but using 'velocity promoting names it isn't completely new.  I remember years ago William Powell (when they were still in Birmingham run by Peter and David Powell) sold their own brand cartridges loaded for them by Hull and I believe really a 'renamed' Hull Three Crowns, which was Hull's standard 'game' cartridge then and still available today. 

• The paper case was "The General" and was 1 1/16 oz in 2 1/2" case (similar to the contemporary and very popular Eley Grand Prix)
• The plastic case was "The Admiral", and was 1 1/16 oz in 2 1/2" case
• However - the 1 oz versions were called "The Super Velocity".  I believe the reason may have been that although they had 1/16 oz less weight of shot, they had the same propellant, so hence a slightly higher velocity.  It was available in both paper and plastic cases if I remember right.

All were (by present day standards) rather 'moderate' cartridges, but I found they worked well - and I still use Hull products to this day (Comp X 21g for clays and Imperial Game 26 or 28g for game).

[enfieldspares]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Entirely agree, but using 'velocity promoting names it isn't completely new.  I remember years ago William Powell (when they were still in Birmingham run by Peter and David Powell) sold their own brand cartridges loaded for them by Hull and I believe really a 'renamed' Hull Three Crowns, which was Hull's standard 'game' cartridge then and still available today. 

• The paper case was "The General" and was 1 1/16 oz in 2 1/2" case (similar to the contemporary and very popular Eley Grand Prix)
• The plastic case was "The Admiral", and was 1 1/16 oz in 2 1/2" case
• However - the 1 oz versions were called "The Super Velocity".  I believe the reason may have been that although they had 1/16 oz less weight of shot, they had the same propellant, so hence a slightly higher velocity.  It was available in both paper and plastic cases if I remember right.

All were (by present day standards) rather 'moderate' cartridges, but I found they worked well - and I still use Hull products to this day (Comp X 21g for clays and Imperial Game 26 or 28g for game).

I used to go to Carr's Lane quite often and had at one time a Powell 3" boxlock ejector (bought from them) and a Powell sidelock ejector. I bought my first fly rod from Powell's and  even had a couple of double rifles from Powell's. An old Alex Henry hammer in .500 BPE and another by someone else hammerless in .450" 2 3/8" BPE. 

I like Peter and, yes the waterproof one was the "Admiral" and blue! LOL! And their one ounce the Super Velocity. Hull one ounce were a good cartridge and many I knew back then preferred it to Eley's Impax as Hull still used a true 65mm case whereas Impax was a 67.5mm case. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, enfieldspares said:

I used to go to Carr's Lane quite often and had at one time a Powell 3" boxlock ejector (bought from them) and a Powell sidelock ejector. I bought my first fly rod from Powell's

Similar.  I have a lightweight sidelock ejector Powell (my 18th birthday) and made 1920s - and a bit like a 'triggers broom' now having prior to my ownership had new barrels and probably new stock.  I also have a Powell's patent hammergun sold to me by Peter Powell.  My first fly rod also came from Powell's, sold to me by Mr. Russell - and I still have that as well and use it in Scotland every year (I don't fish much).

[JohnfromUK]

26 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

However - the 1 oz versions were called "The Super Velocity". 

In fact it was 15/16" oz.  See catalogue (from 1980).

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Blimey, is this still rolling along?    

[JohnfromUK]

24 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Blimey, is this still rolling along?    

As so often happens, rather sidetracked, for which I am partly to blame!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

As so often happens, rather sidetracked, for which I am partly to blame!

It is the Pigeon Watch Disease and many of us are guilty of it.  

I have had to have a new router sent out and can't believe some of the stuff that is still "current".

Oh well, it keeps some of you off the streets, I guess!   

[wymberley]

4 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

A trend, I fear, much encouraged by the You Tube offerings of some...and IMHO an unwelcome trend. Even clay pigeon cartridges are seeing this fast trend. I tried some Fiocchi Lite Speed (the fibre wad version) in my son's gun a side by side Gunmark Viscount weighing about 6lbs 12ozs. It is the only time, with any gun, I have ever hit the back of the front trigger with the front of my trigger finger when firing the second barrel with the rear trigger.

https://www.clay-shooting.com/reviews/fiocchi-litespeed-cartridge-review-with-richard-atkins/

Obviously the guy from the link has never heard of crypto balling.

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Obviously the guy from the link has never heard of crypto balling.

Neither have I! What is it?

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Neither have I! What is it?

Can I cheat? Do you have a copy of GT's Shotguns and Cartridges? If yes, see Chap. 7 Cartridges and Fig53 in particular.

If not, come back and will explain.

[enfieldspares]

I did have, yes. Garwood's book. But alas no longer. Yes do please educate me!

[wymberley]

46 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

I did have, yes. Garwood's book. But alas no longer. Yes do please educate me!

As the term suggests this is hidden or indicative of what may develop if you push the cause - high pressure - much further. If anyone has GT's book and views Fig 53, what is looking like the small clumps and short chains of pellets which are shown on Fig 54 are visible.

NB The pressures detailed on the link for the plastic and fibre wads.

The phenomenon which is just starting to become apparent on the link's fibre wad photo is somewhat more pronounced on the plastic wadded loads one where the pressure is higher. It is appreciated that with just one photo of something occurring in the early stages is not ideal. Neither, though, is having a dense pattern which numerically speaking would seem ideal but is not so when the pattern spread consists of many pellets grouped in small areas. A pattern which will have also been made less effective because of other distorted pellets to boot.

[wymberley]

On 02/02/2023 at 12:18, enfieldspares said:

A trend, I fear, much encouraged by the You Tube offerings of some...and IMHO an unwelcome trend. Even clay pigeon cartridges are seeing this fast trend. I tried some Fiocchi Lite Speed (the fibre wad version) in my son's gun a side by side Gunmark Viscount weighing about 6lbs 12ozs. It is the only time, with any gun, I have ever hit the back of the front trigger with the front of my trigger finger when firing the second barrel with the rear trigger.

https://www.clay-shooting.com/reviews/fiocchi-litespeed-cartridge-review-with-richard-atkins/

Never heard of the guy named in the link. Anyone know if he gets paid for writing this rubbish?

[enfieldspares]

Richard Atkins? Was editor of Target Gun magazine for many years and a very experienced clay shooter. Writes now freelance for a number of paper and online shooting journals. Just because we've never heard of someone doesn't invalidate their opinion surely?

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/steel-shot-vs-lead-shot-the-hard-facts-about-steel-shot-130044

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/steel-vs-lead-testing-pellet-power-with-pizza-boxes-133711

Edited February 6, 2023 by enfieldspares

[wymberley]

57 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Richard Atkins? Was editor of Target Gun magazine for many years and a very experienced clay shooter. Writes now freelance for a number of paper and online shooting journals. Just because we've never heard of someone doesn't invalidate their opinion surely?

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/steel-shot-vs-lead-shot-the-hard-facts-about-steel-shot-130044

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/steel-vs-lead-testing-pellet-power-with-pizza-boxes-133711

Absolutely not and everyone is entitled to their opinion. For example, it would be my opinion that it would be more likely that your finger strike from the front trigger was due to an ill fitting gun- either LoP or location of trigger/trigger guard -  rather than a relatively low recoil momentum. I have to admit that what I'm not to keen on though is folk passing off fiction as fact.

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

that your finger strike from the front trigger

Interesting that some guns have hinged from triggers to avoid this (though I have never heard anyone having this trouble myself).  I have not seen it on an English gun, but my AyA No 1 and both double trigger Merkels have a hinged front trigger.

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Interesting that some guns have hinged from triggers to avoid this (though I have never heard anyone having this trouble myself).  I have not seen it on an English gun, but my AyA No 1 and both double trigger Merkels have a hinged front trigger.

And there’s me thinking it was to accommodate a gloved finger the reason for the articulated front trigger 

just my thought 

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And there’s me thinking it was to accommodate a gloved finger the reason for the articulated front trigger 

just my thought 

You might be right, I had always understood it was to prevent bruising, but it seems a thing on foreign guns.  I have not seen it on an English gun, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough?

http://www.hallowellco.com/articulated_front_trigger.htm

Edited February 6, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

You might be right, I had always understood it was to prevent bruising, but it seems a thing on foreign guns.  I have not seen it on an English gun, but perhaps I haven't lookerd hard enough?

http://www.hallowellco.com/articulated_front_trigger.htm

I’ve had a few aya guns with them 

but couldn’t work out how you could bash your finger unless possibly the problem was arising when the rear trigger was used first 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Old farrier said:

 couldn’t work out how you could bash your finger unless possibly the problem was arising when the rear trigger was used first 

Since I have never had the problem or the similar one with the trigger guard despite using light guns and having small hands - I don't know either.  But I know quite a few people who have had the trigger guard problem.

 

[Old farrier]

37 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Since I have never had the problem or the similar one with the trigger guard despite using light guns and having small hands - I don't know either.  But I know quite a few people who have had the trigger guard problem.

 

Totally different problem 

had a gentleman who was having this issue with a delightful English gun 

trigger guard ripping his finger 

solved that for him 😊

swapped his 2..3/4 inch cartridge for 2.1/2 

he’s now enjoying it and shooting it very well 

not saying that’s the cause in all cases but worth checking if anyone has a similar problem 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Totally different problem 

had a gentleman who was having this issue with a delightful English gun 

trigger guard ripping his finger 

solved that for him 😊

swapped his 2..3/4 inch cartridge for 2.1/2 

he’s now enjoying it and shooting it very well 

not saying that’s the cause in all cases but worth checking if anyone has a similar problem 

Interesting.  Local chap I knew had a very nice old Boss s/s gun with which he shot quite well.  He was invited to a simulated day, cartridges provided.  He was a bit carried away and fired a lot of cartridges, and not only had a bit of a sore shoulder, but the gun didn't 'feel quite right' when cleaning it, so he booked it into the gunsmith for a check over.  He had a nasty (and expensive call) from the gunsmith who called him an ignorant fool and quoted him for full re-jointing of a gun badly off the face.  Annoyed - he got a second opinion which was much the same .......... and for the price of the remedial work could have had some nice real (not simulated) days.

He had put several hundred 'hot' 2 3/4" cartridges through an old and quite lightly built Boss game gun.

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

You might be right, I had always understood it was to prevent bruising, but it seems a thing on foreign guns.  I have not seen it on an English gun, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough?

 

Many Purdey guns have an articulated from trigger. But unless you handle the thing it's easy to miss even standing but one or two feet from such a gun in its case or in a rack or cabinet.

Or if it is a badly made articulate trigger such as one the one shown it the picture on the Hallowell website. This Purdey below has an articulated front trigger but you can't tell.

https://hollandandholland.com/new-and-preowned-guns/CM30611

My Somerton Guns Made in Spain has one. Again it's impossible to notice unless you deliberately test for it by pushing against the back of the front trigger.

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Absolutely not and everyone is entitled to their opinion. For example, it would be my opinion that it would be more likely that your finger strike from the front trigger was due to an ill fitting gun- either LoP or location of trigger/trigger guard -  rather than a relatively low recoil momentum. I have to admit that what I'm not to keen on though is folk passing off fiction as fact.

No. We shot it with 28 gram clay pigeon loads and it didn't do it. 

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

And there’s me thinking it was to accommodate a gloved finger the reason for the articulated front trigger 

just my thought 

No that's the reason for single triggers on side by side guns I thought?

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

10 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Many Purdey guns have an articulated from trigger. But unless you handle the thing it's easy to miss even standing but one or two feet from such a gun in its case or in a rack or cabinet.

Or if it is a badly made articulate trigger such as one the one shown it the picture on the Hallowell website. This Purdey below has an articulated front trigger but you can't tell.

https://hollandandholland.com/new-and-preowned-guns/CM30611

My Somerton Guns Made in Spain has one. Again it's impossible to notice unless you deliberately test for it by pushing against the back of the front trigger.

No. We shot it with 28 gram clay pigeon loads and it didn't do it. 

No that's the reason for single triggers on side by side guns I thought?

 

I have known a couple of people, reared on single trigger O/U guns, who, when they first tried a double trigger SxS, tried to shoot with two fingers at once through the triggers, thinking that was how it was done.

[Penelope]

Weight will depend on the job required and the cartridges used, IMO.

6 1/4lb English 12 boxlock - Game, pigeons at back in the day, flight pond duck.

8lb English 12 boxlock Magnum - Wildfowling.

9lb AYA Matador 10 - Wildfolwing.