Low recoil 20 bore cartridges for game

[Bear68]

There have been similar threads in the past, but cartridge manufacturers seem to rebrand their products on an increasingly regular basis. I've bought an AYA 20 bore side by side for walked-up and driven game shooting. I'm looking for  cartridges with a 25gm or 26gm (lead) load with fibre wads. It's a light gun and I think anything heavier will be a bit fierce. Any recommendations would be appreciated. 

[wymberley]

Lyalvale Express Supreme Game. Just a shame that they only do the 6&1/2s in 12 bore so it’s 6s or 7s.

[London Best]

As above. Express 25 gram 65mm. 
I have an English 20 bore side lock (which replaced an AYA No.3). It is fine with 25 gram cartridges, but if I use the same cartridge with 28 gram the gun jumps off the shoulder when fired. Gun weighs 5 3/4 lbs. AYA was only 5 1/2 from memory.

[Bear68]

Thank you. I'll give them a go.

[Fargo]

Hull 3 crown 23g

Express 21g

 

[Bear68]

Thanks. The RC Sipe 26gm load looks interesting.....but I assume there would be  more recoil than the above suggestions?

[shalfordninja33]

1 hour ago, Bear68 said:

Thanks. The RC Sipe 26gm load looks interesting.....but I assume there would be  more recoil than the above suggestions?

I use RC Sipe in 26gm almost all the time in my O/U, I've tired some of the above along with Hull in 25gm and I think the difference in recoil is negligible. The RC's kill much more reliably in my experience.  

Edited July 1, 2023 by shalfordninja33

[wymberley]

An OU firing a given cartridge is not the same as a SbS. A heavier and faster load will definitely produce more recoil - how it is perceived is personal to the Gun. The Sipe is a good cartridge with a price to match but if it doesn’t suit a light SbS then ii’s  not much use. Best try a box if you fancy them. One just has to ask what is the benefit of 1430 at the muzzle over 1350 downrange and if there is any, is it worth the extra dosh?

[Lloyd90]

I have today picked up an AYA no4 20 bore, it’s 5lb 10oz, I have used 28/30g in my SP 686 20 bore but might be looking to pick up something a bit lighter/slower for this lovely little gun. 

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I have today picked up an AYA no4 20 bore, it’s 5lb 10oz, I have used 28/30g in my SP 686 20 bore but might be looking to pick up something a bit lighter/slower for this lovely little gun. 

You need 25 gram loads, no more.

Jealous!

Edited November 1 by London Best

[Lloyd90]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

You need 25 gram loads, no more.

Jealous!

Yea that’s what I worked out with the 96 rule I read in other threads. 
 

 

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Yea that’s what I worked out with the 96 rule I read in other threads. 
 

 

My 20 is an old English gun with 2 1/2 inch chambers. It weighs the same as yours.
A friend once asked to use it for a day. He uses an OU 20 and 70mm cartridges. 
I said I would bring him some 65mm stuff. 
He insisted that he would buy some himself, and turned up with a slab. 
After one drive he was complaining about the recoil being unmanageable (he weighed 16 stone). 
As I had never felt any recoil from that gun I looked at his cartridges. 
Sure enough, he had bought 65mm, but with a 28 gram load. I was surprised that such a cartridge existed. 
I buy Express 25 gram in 7 or 6 for mine and suggest you try nothing heavier through your AyA.

[Lloyd90]

9 hours ago, London Best said:

My 20 is an old English gun with 2 1/2 inch chambers. It weighs the same as yours.
A friend once asked to use it for a day. He uses an OU 20 and 70mm cartridges. 
I said I would bring him some 65mm stuff. 
He insisted that he would buy some himself, and turned up with a slab. 
After one drive he was complaining about the recoil being unmanageable (he weighed 16 stone). 
As I had never felt any recoil from that gun I looked at his cartridges. 
Sure enough, he had bought 65mm, but with a 28 gram load. I was surprised that such a cartridge existed. 
I buy Express 25 gram in 7 or 6 for mine and suggest you try nothing heavier through your AyA.

Just cartridges have the below: 

Gamebore Regal, 25g 6’s, 65mm, 1350fps.

Might give them a try. The Express 25g 7’s are out of stock but they do seem to have them in 6’s.  
 

 

[London Best]

55 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Just cartridges have the below: 

Gamebore Regal, 25g 6’s, 65mm, 1350fps.

Might give them a try. The Express 25g 7’s are out of stock but they do seem to have them in 6’s.  
 

 

Can’t comment as I never buy Gamebore. Local doesn’t stock them. 
No reason why they should not be ok.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, Back in the day when i had a Winchester 101 20 bore you could use the higher loads than those i knew with 20 bore side by sides . if i was using the old 1 ounce load like 28 g now it made the side by side recoil very punchy

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I have today picked up an AYA no4 20 bore, it’s 5lb 10oz, I have used 28/30g in my SP 686 20 bore but might be looking to pick up something a bit lighter/slower for this lovely little gun. 

Weighs the same as my OU. The Regal is a half decent cartridge and is the same spec' as the Express so you should be OK.

I was forced into my first 20 bore and it needed to have a big fat fore-end with pistol grip and single trigger - a recipe for a canon and so it was in the shape of a Browning Black Gold 725 and as it weighed more than my 12 bore, I tried some 28gr. My situation improved and I was able to revert to my favourite configuration by which time I'd learned to appreciate the 20 so acquired the little Beretta S56E. Feeding this 25g does every thing I need with regards the pigeon and as I still have a 12, the Browning is now up for grabs on the RFD's 'for sale' rack. The only trouble is is that I still have a fair few hundred 28g cartridges. I know that the little Beretta shot tight - too tight really - but I wasn't 100% sure why as i was having to rely on readings from a telescopic bore gauge/vernier set up. Eventually (see "How Much" thread in General Shooting), I got this resolved and found out that what I thought to be the case was correct - give or take a thou'. The gun is now with a 'smith having the chokes opened out as 1/2+ and Full was far to tight for my needs with the 25g and I'm half hoping that this will make the 28g feasible until they're all used up.

[Lloyd90]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Weighs the same as my OU. The Regal is a half decent cartridge and is the same spec' as the Express so you should be OK.

I was forced into my first 20 bore and it needed to have a big fat fore-end with pistol grip and single trigger - a recipe for a canon and so it was in the shape of a Browning Black Gold 725 and as it weighed more than my 12 bore, I tried some 28gr. My situation improved and I was able to revert to my favourite configuration by which time I'd learned to appreciate the 20 so acquired the little Beretta S56E. Feeding this 25g does every thing I need with regards the pigeon and as I still have a 12, the Browning is now up for grabs on the RFD's 'for sale' rack. The only trouble is is that I still have a fair few hundred 28g cartridges. I know that the little Beretta shot tight - too tight really - but I wasn't 100% sure why as i was having to rely on readings from a telescopic bore gauge/vernier set up. Eventually (see "How Much" thread in General Shooting), I got this resolved and found out that what I thought to be the case was correct - give or take a thou'. The gun is now with a 'smith having the chokes opened out as 1/2+ and Full was far to tight for my needs with the 25g and I'm half hoping that this will make the 28g feasible until they're all used up.

I was told this AYA is cylinder and 1/2, the cheap choke gauge I picked up shows cyl and cyl but I also checked it against my SP 20 bore and it’s not consistent with any of the chokes on that either. 
 

 

[London Best]

28 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I was told this AYA is cylinder and 1/2, the cheap choke gauge I picked up shows cyl and cyl but I also checked it against my SP 20 bore and it’s not consistent with any of the chokes on that either. 
 

 

Forget about chokes and just use it.

[wymberley]

23 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I was told this AYA is cylinder and 1/2, the cheap choke gauge I picked up shows cyl and cyl but I also checked it against my SP 20 bore and it’s not consistent with any of the chokes on that either. 
 

 

Yep, the only way to be absolutely certain of what's what is to pattern test it properly. Failing that a bore gauge in the hands of someone who knows how to use it will give you the nominal measurements which will give you a starting point. Still typing this but have been made aware of LB's post. Knowing how your gun performs is just another step in gaining the confidence which permits you to shoot well/better.

8 minutes ago, London Best said:

Forget about chokes and just use it.

Doesn't this contradict some of your previous posts regarding choke?

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

 

Doesn't this contradict some of your previous posts regarding choke?

I have found the best, most useful choke is nil or as little as possible.

Your pedantic obsessing over choke cannot be helping your shooting at all.

[enfieldspares]

Wussies! My late father ended his shooting days with a G E Lewis "Light Magnum" 20 bore boxlock ejector made in 1954. These were chambered in 2 3/4" and "shot a 16 bore load in a 20 bore gun". It had twenty six inch barrels and weighed about 5lbs 10zs which was then considered "heavy" for a 20 bore in that barrel length.

He shot Eley Grand Prix 2 1/2" 13/16 ounce or Eley Alphamax 2 3/4" 1 ounce. Both with English #5 and as far as I believe selected what he filled his cartridge satchel with according to the needs of the day he anticipated. So I guess early season driven partridge would have been the Grand Prix. Late season pheasants that were flying "high", or hare, the Alphamax.

So I would counsel the OP the same. A friend shoots, and shoots well, an AYA No3 in 20 bore and I had a practice with him on Thursday at Wedgnock. He shot their grouse flush, as did I, and their high tower etc.. No matter what he loaded it with if he hit it killed the clays well. So pattern was always adequate...it will also be with larger shot on what , a pheasant, is a larger target.

So don't feel handicapped by a old school 13/16 ounce load nor OTOH fear excess recoi of the old Alphamax equivalent...today's 70mm 28 gram loading. AYA make proper guns with proper stocks so unless the stock has been cut down or the OP is too tall for a standard proportion AYA stocked gun recoil shouldn't be an issue.

So choose the weight of shot load, IMHO, as did I understood did my father. That is choose it according to the sort of day, the sort of game and how you will be presented with it. Be it low partridge, supposed "high" flying pheasant, decoyed pigeon or even hare.

When he died I had the stock extended to fit me and shot the gun. From memory that took the weight to 5lbs 12ozs. I shot the last of his Alphamax #5 and never considered the recoil an issue. If the gun is the correct fit for the OP and especially as if an AYA it'll likely be twenty eight inch barrels it should also be fine.

A modern AYA in 70mm is a versatile gun. It  can chamber and fire the equivalent or better of a 3" .410 load, or a 2 3/4" 28 bore load equivalent or a 2 1/2" 16 bore load duplicate up to Payne Galwey's "On High Pheasants" 1912 advice of a open choke 12 bore firing 1 ounce of English #7. A truly unique ability.

Enjoy the benefit that feature brings. A modern well and properly fitting stocked AYA 20 bore is a really versatile gun. So as said select you cartridge according to the day...take ONLY that single selection on that one day...and have fun with no second guessing of this or that, or the other as you have for all of that day only the one choice of load.

Edited November 2 by enfieldspares

[wymberley]

24 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have found the best, most useful choke is nil or as little as possible.

Your pedantic obsessing over choke cannot be helping your shooting at all.

What most certainly will not help my shooting (at 80 I'm beyond help and am slowly but surely going downhill) is pointless often glib comments from you. You seem to me to express opinions that are more appropriate to the 19th century and unless you are actually shooting at sub30 yards as was the norm back then and are of the 3 pellets on average mentality.

[London Best]

14 minutes ago, wymberley said:

What most certainly will not help my shooting (at 80 I'm beyond help and am slowly but surely going downhill) is pointless often glib comments from you. You seem to me to express opinions that are more appropriate to the 19th century and unless you are actually shooting at sub30 yards as was the norm back then and are of the 3 pellets on average mentality.

I think you are far too obsessed with the theoretical side of shooting.

After long practical experience in the field I know what works for me.

All the best shots that I know have not got a clue what choke their barrels carry. They just get on and shoot.

[enfieldspares]

Hmm. Or not Pearl Harbour but Pigeon Watch revisiting the debate about the degree of choke in game guns.

 

[grahamch]

Used to have an Alex Martin Caledonia 20 bore weighing 5.25 pounds and use 7/8 no7 Hull High Pheasant through it for years. Everything from snipe to greylags