No logic to lead ban

[ShootingEgg]

3 minutes ago, Red696 said:

 “Org who are on the shooters side” now that is all the proof anyone needs that ‘selling’ works.

A Lincoln was correct:

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

So BASC do nothing? If that's your thoughts then fair enough.

[Konor]

9 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks @ShootingEgg for the reasoned comments. 

@Konor  the offer of a phone call remains - there seems a lot of issues to discuss - and some of them appear personal in nature also - all best done over the phone and not here.

As for the other comments from a few others I do wonder whether they have read BASC's consultation response let alone a summary of it. To expect me to spend hours on PW addressing queries from people that appear not to have had the common courtesy to read the information provided in the OP is a bit much. I am happy to address any genuine queries and have done so in this thread already.

Please read the summary on the webpage linked below (final para may address any confusion) and then at the end of the webpage are two downloads which includes much detail and context around the whole topic.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/ 

Sorry Conor I’m now out. You had the opportunity to address the issues raised and to apologise for your inaccurate personal attack on myself on the other thread. Your refusal to do either settles the matter for me. In the time taken for the responses you have made so far you could have covered the issues I’ve mentioned.

I have read all the updates that BASC have issued as I am a long time member of BASC going back to the 1970s and my membership of WAGBI. My father organised the visit of John Anderton to our wildfowling club and I was on that committee for a few years so I do have a long standing assosciation with BASC.

I must say that you are doing a pretty poor job of representing BASC on this forum and a great job of reinforcing entrenched positions but that’s just my opinion and as I’ve seen my opinions and concerns  don’t really amount to much where BASC is concerned.

[Fellside]

40 minutes ago, Red696 said:

Call me cycnical…. 1700 prospective customers for what outlay?  How many on the payroll turn up to set up & carry out the coaching? vs how many on the payroll ‘selling’ membership.
 

And there is a lot more to shooting than ‘clays’ ( a sport I’ve recently taken up 😁 ), as a life long Airgunner BASC has done diddly other than class Airgunners as 2nd class to the posh Game shooting fraternity.

BASC take plenty, give little, and blow smoke.

Quite clearly BASC weren’t selling membership to first time Scout clay shooters - and yes BASC pay rolled employees were strongly present. They organise and run the days - many of which are on weekends. 

I can detect that you are new to clays and possibly shotgunning also. Welcome to the world of clay shooting BTW. It’s a great learning journey and I hope you are enjoying it. RE air gunning, BASC have done a great deal to support this area of our sport also. I may be a shot gunner, but I’ve never forgotten my air rifle routes. I still use a couple of air rifles too - which I share with my children. Wouldn’t part with my air rifles.

With respect Red696 you may not be that familiar with BASC’s work. I can understand to a certain extent the lead debate angle, but you may be too willing to assume that BASC haven’t made a lot of great gains. How about volunteering to help their staff put on a kids clay shooting event? Most children love clay (and often game) shooting, but find access just about impossible. They, and more often their parents, often just don’t know where to start. 

1 hour ago, ShootingEgg said:

Used to run young shot days with James Green from BASC and we did clays, pheasant drive, walk round the shoot, prep a bird, then a duck flight. From smashing a clay to dropping a pheasant and/or a duck the kids loved it.... 

marvellous 👍

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Sorry Conor I’m now out. You had the opportunity to address the issues raised and to apologise for your inaccurate personal attack on myself on the other thread. Your refusal to do either settles the matter for me. In the time taken for the responses you have made so far you could have covered the issues I’ve mentioned.

I have read all the updates that BASC have issued as I am a long time member of BASC going back to the 1970s and my membership of WAGBI. My father organised the visit of John Anderton to our wildfowling club and I was on that committee for a few years so I do have a long standing assosciation with BASC.

I must say that you are doing a pretty poor job of representing BASC on this forum and a great job of reinforcing entrenched positions but that’s just my opinion and as I’ve seen my opinions and concerns  don’t really amount to much where BASC is concerned.

That's probably for the best for you to take a time out.

And let's be clear for the avoidance of doubt - you have stated incorrectly that: "BASC chose not to fight the lead ban and let down the shooting community" and you have not corrected that belligerent BASC bashing statement despite the facts presented to you. Rather you have doubled down with unwarranted personal attacks on me for presenting those facts.

Clearly there are issues here that we could address together as fellow BASC members and that is why I have repeatedly offered to talk to you on the phone - offers that you have twisted into a negative narrative - and continued with your personal attacks on me. 

Despite all of that, my offer remains open to discuss your queries and concerns on the phone and I wish you a happy New Year in any case.

[Red696]

1 hour ago, ShootingEgg said:

So BASC do nothing? If that's your thoughts then fair enough.

I’ve not said they do nothing, but I will say, they do what best suits their business as would any other business.  The customers needs are, and always will be, secondary irrespective of the very very longterm outcomes.

 

Let me be controversial…. Compare the NRA to BASC and ask ourselves who stands for the ‘shooters’?  Both are businesses, both funded by the shooters ( and manufacturers for the NRA ), one wins it’s battles despite the horrific incidents that seem to happen daily and one volunteers to ‘roll over’.

[Konor]

57 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 

Edited January 1 by Konor
Duplicate post

[Konor]

Conor

BASC did choose not to fight the lead shot ban by supporting a voluntary lead ban and in the process gave ammunition to the antifieldsports lobby to support their attack on wild quarry shooting and as a consequence betrayed the shooting community by failing to consult them before making that decision. This fact has been the crux of the complaints levelled against BASC in this and other threads.

That you then had the gall to come onto this forum to state that BASC is against further legislation on the use of lead shot was a direct contradiction of that earlier stance they had taken.

I suggest you read back through this thread and rethink your previous ridiculous statement and your inability to comprehend that you cannot endorse a voluntary lead ban then state BASC is against any further legislation to restrict the use of lead shot and retain any credibility 

I also suggest that you take no time out but put a bit more time and effort into doing what you are paid to do ,hopefully with a little less personal attack and a little more acknowledgement of posters concerns regarding the practicalities of a legislated ban on the use of lead shot than you have demonstrated so far.

if your interpretation of the contents of this thread is mirrored in your last post ,and remember the thread is here for all to read and judge, then I’m sure I have made the right decision in declining your offer of a personal phone call,who knows what you may claim or misinterpret from that.

Edited January 2 by Konor
Expansion and clarification

[Red696]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Quite clearly BASC weren’t selling membership to first time Scout clay shooters - and yes BASC pay rolled employees were strongly present. They organise and run the days - many of which are on weekends. 

I can detect that you are new to clays and possibly shotgunning also. Welcome to the world of clay shooting BTW. It’s a great learning journey and I hope you are enjoying it. RE air gunning, BASC have done a great deal to support this area of our sport also. I may be a shot gunner, but I’ve never forgotten my air rifle routes. I still use a couple of air rifles too - which I share with my children. Wouldn’t part with my air rifles.

With respect Red696 you may not be that familiar with BASC’s work. I can understand to a certain extent the lead debate angle, but you may be too willing to assume that BASC haven’t made a lot of great gains. How about volunteering to help their staff put on a kids clay shooting event? Most children love clay (and often game) shooting, but find access just about impossible. They, and more often their parents, often just don’t know where to start. 

marvellous 👍

I’ve been a member, but saw the light..

Yes I’m new to clays but not shooting.  Lost my Handgun along with everyone else, still do a bit of target .22lr rifle indoor and have been shooting Airguns for 42 years ( jeez that sounds like a long time and still have the Webley Hawke ) both for the pot and target comps.  There has been a bit of Centrefire along the way and I’ve yet to see any benefit in being a member of BASC, even the insurance is more expensive than the other available options.

It used to be that when talking to other shooters you could get a 50/50 split on members & non members, a little less with the Airgunners but these days not one of the Airgunners I shoot with are members.

As for volunteering, pay to be a member and then do the work myself whilst the payroll sit back and cash in on the free labour…  “got to have a bit of bubbly for the shareholders” springs to mind.

 

9 minutes ago, Konor said:

Conor BASC did choose not to fight the lead shot ban by supporting a voluntary lead ban ,giving ammunition to the antifieldsports lobby to support their attack on wild quarry shooting and in the process betrayed the shooting community.

Then you have the gall to come onto this forum to state that BASC is against further legislation on the use of lead shot.

I suggest you read back through this thread and rethink your ridiculous statement and inability to comprehend that you cannot endorse a voluntary lead ban then state BASC is against any further legislation to restrict the use of lead shot and then retain any plausibility.

I suggest you take no time out but put a bit more time and effort into doing what you are paid to do hopefully with a little more success than you have achieved so far.

I wish the forum had a like button…

 

THIS WOULD GET A LIKE

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, Red696 said:

I’ve not said they do nothing, but I will say, they do what best suits their business as would any other business.  The customers needs are, and always will be, secondary irrespective of the very very longterm outcomes.

 

Let me be controversial…. Compare the NRA to BASC and ask ourselves who stands for the ‘shooters’?  Both are businesses, both funded by the shooters ( and manufacturers for the NRA ), one wins it’s battles despite the horrific incidents that seem to happen daily and one volunteers to ‘roll over’.

Surely you’re not comparing the NRA of the USA to BASC?

If that’s what you’re doing then there is absolutely no comparison between the two at all! 

[Red696]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Surely you’re not comparing the NRA of the USA to BASC?

If that’s what you’re doing then there is absolutely no comparison between the two at all! 

I’m asking him to compare which stands for the shooter.  
 

Both are businesses, one is apparently very profitable and also manages to protect gun owners and ownership.  Some lead bans in the States, but I’ve not seen any evidence of it being volunteered by their ‘gun lobby’, meanwhile in the UK our ‘gun lobby’ has had it’s belly tickled for doing just that.  
 

I’m sure BASC write some cracking letters telling the Government of the day how mildly miffed they are, maybe even threatening to downscale the ‘hampers’ at the next Driven they invite any MP to.  
 

Others getting jolly over the volunteering days, what use will it be teaching these kids if the sports are being phased out with voluntary bans.

[Konor]

22 minutes ago, Konor said:

you (BASC)cannot endorse a voluntary lead ban then state BASC is against any further legislation to restrict the use of lead shot

You still haven’t addressed the elephant in the room Conor . A short sentence or two would suffice if ,as has been stated already, you’re probably a very busy man.

[Fellside]

40 minutes ago, Red696 said:

the payroll sit back and cash in on the free labour

You wouldn’t be seeing it that way if you witnessed what it takes to organise, safety assess, run and pay for a youth coaching event. Volunteering isn’t ‘free labour’, it’s putting your shoulder to the wheel and making a difference. You would find it difficult to achieve it off your own bat - not least of all due to the cost. BASC and/or other shooting org’s therefore become key. 

BTW Who are these shareholders (champagne quaffing or otherwise)?

[Konor]

8 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

And let's be clear for the avoidance of doubt - you have stated incorrectly that: "BASC chose not to fight the lead ban and let down the shooting community" and you have not corrected that belligerent BASC bashing statement despite the facts presented to you. Rather you have doubled

And let’s be clear for the avoidance of doubt,BASC chose to endorse a voluntary lead shot ban/move away from the use of lead shot and in doing so failed to fight the proposed legislation that would see lead shot banned. All without prior consultation with their membership.

BASC now contradicts that stance by stating it is against any further legislation restricting the use of lead shot while still calling for a voluntary ban on the use of lead shot.

Conor fails to explain the contradiction .

Conor labels any questioning of the above contradiction as belligerent BASC bashing.

Conor it appears that you consider yourself above accountability and prefer personal attack ,rather than addressing the issues and concerns raised by the shooting community, as a means of defending BASCs contradictory stances.
As a result of your reluctance to both clarify the contradictions of BASC’s stances and also directly address the concerns raised by the shooting community in this and other threads you have been largely responsible for the resulting pages of criticism arising.
Your inability to acknowledge the above is unacceptable and your insistence that a private phone call can resolve the matters raised is frankly worrying as it removes the  accountability that is inherent in discussing matters on an open forum and introduces the possibility of misrepresentation and interpretation on both sides.

 

 

Edited January 2 by Konor
Deletion of repitition

[Scully]

47 minutes ago, Red696 said:

I’m asking him to compare which stands for the shooter.  
 

Both are businesses, one is apparently very profitable and also manages to protect gun owners and ownership.  Some lead bans in the States, but I’ve not seen any evidence of it being volunteered by their ‘gun lobby’, meanwhile in the UK our ‘gun lobby’ has had it’s belly tickled for doing just that.  
 

I’m sure BASC write some cracking letters telling the Government of the day how mildly miffed they are, maybe even threatening to downscale the ‘hampers’ at the next Driven they invite any MP to.  
 

Others getting jolly over the volunteering days, what use will it be teaching these kids if the sports are being phased out with voluntary bans.

It doesn’t matter who or what or how you’re asking a comparison to be made,  there is simply no comparison at all between the American NRA and the British BASC! 
The former has a membership of multi multi millions and a revenue to match, capable of huge political campaigns and lobbying the likes of which US politicians take incredibly seriously, or don’t, at their peril. 
The latter is an organisation with a membership of less than a million which doesn’t even feature anywhere on a UK politicians spectrum. 
In their defence, BASC do a lot for youngsters; as a member I used to take at least five kids to Young Shots days on a regular basis to various venues in the North of England. 
Some of them are now married with kids and lifelong shooters. 

[Fellside]

49 minutes ago, Red696 said:

Others getting jolly over the volunteering days, what use will it be teaching these kids if the sports are being phased out with voluntary bans.

I think you must be referring to me here Red696. You may well be hacked off with a certain lead issue - but who on earth said the sport is being phased out for future generations? Shooting (and many other outdoor pursuits) is more under threat from screen based games than your tangential doom prophecy. Hope you “get jolly over some volunteering days” as you put it. You may develop a more informed stance if you do. 

[Gordon R]

I cannot comprehend why some still advocate a cosy phone call to resolve the issues. Scully has made the phone call and got the response I suspected he would get - not a lot.

I ask again just what it is that can be disclosed in a phone call that the rest of the forum is not allowed to know about?

Conor is now having a pop at Konor for having the temerity to ask for a straight answer to a straight question. 

When I read claims that the questions raised have already been answered, I have to stifle a laugh. 

It has gone beyond embarrassing for BASC.

[Konor]

I used to get as much enjoyment introducing kids to fly casting at the early Young Shots Days as they did. The fun of having them compete against each other at accuracy casting into hula hoops was immeasurable. The popularity of the days was testament to how well organised they were though in fairness not all of that was down to BASC and credit must be given to those who volunteered instruction and organised food on the day.

That conceded ,failing  to hold BASC to account for the decisions it makes is not healthy for shooting or the organisation and raising legitimate concerns regarding the form that future legislation on the restriction of lead shot might take eg potential exemptions for the use of small bore,Damascus barrelled and other vintage guns when used in small scale walked up rough shooting etc is not belligerent BASC bashing . Any attempt to introduce some common sense to the proposed blanket ban which would permit vintage guns to continue to be used without having to suffer the limitations and expense of using bismuth shot should be welcomed and those proposals championed by BASC . As the self proclaimed voice of shooting I expect that voice should be representing my best interests if not why should I continue to be a member ?

Edited January 2 by Konor

[Konor]

6 hours ago, Gordon R said:

When I read claims that the questions raised have already been answered, I have to stifle a laugh. 

It has gone beyond embarrassing for BASC.

Conor has had ample opportunity to answer the specific points raised and has declined to rise to the occasion preferring instead to evade answering any specific points and referring those raising the points to BASC statements that do not address those points raised.

As can be seen in this thread he then goes on to personally attack those raising the points in order to discredit them. It’s a tactic frequently or perhaps more accurately invariably employed by politicians usually when they have been caught out and should have no place on the forum. However its use is enlightening and an insight into what Conor considers appropriate behaviour.

Edited January 2 by Konor

[rbrowning2]

you (BASC)cannot endorse a voluntary lead ban then state BASC is against any further legislation to restrict the use of lead shot

My take on this is to ensure the future of game shooting the game needs to enter the food chain, BASC invested money in this, however the market perception is this must be lead free. The dilemma was single use plastic wads, but then along came so called biodegradable wads which opened the door for the voluntary transition for live quarry shooting. 

However now they 110% support the ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting but are having to be seen to fight to stop that including target shooting, clay shooting etc which they stupidly thought would never be included in any legislation if that happed when they announced the voluntary transition.

They expected all to jump on board the voluntary transition thereby thinking they would stop any legislation happing.

Edited January 2 by rbrowning2

[Gordon R]

Quote

However now they 110% support the ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting but are having to be seen to fight to stop that including target shooting, clay shooting etc which they stupidly thought would never be included in any legislation when they announced the voluntary transition.

Can't disagree.

[Konor]

14 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

now they 110% support the ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting but are having to be seen to fight to stop that including target shooting, clay shooting etc which they stupidly thought would never be included in any legislation if that happed when they announced the voluntary transition.

This may well be a plausible explanation for the mess we find ourselves in. It’s frustrating that our representatives are not more forthcoming when it comes to clarifying policy.

[Red696]

@fellside the shareholders quip is reference to an old tv advert, it is meant to be seen as a reference to the payrolled at BASC.

No slight at you with my mention of volunteers, as others have also brought up the subject of volunteering.  

My opinions of BASC aren’t isolated but also don’t match those of others, it doesn’t mean mine aren’t valid though.  At best BASC come across as an expensive insurance provider, at worst they come across as a VERY expensive insurance provider.

Gun ownership and therefore shooting sport is under threat from increased legislation not X’boxes as has been posted.  I’ve introduced a few teenagers to shooting, as they all had an obsession with COD, all but one stuck to shooting and dropped the gaming.  
 

[Konor]

Accessibility and expense would be a contributor too to becoming involved in shooting sports. I’m based in the city and am inundated with workmates wanting to try clay shooting at a cost that is more reasonable than involving professional coaching, without exception all are keen to go out again. I find a similar situation with loch trout fishing ,lots of people keen to try it out but in this case it’s a lack of guidance that holds people back also everyone isn’t prepared to invest money in equipment when they don’t know if they will continue with the sport. My being able to loan out equipment overcomes that hurdle. I’ve half a dozen people from work keen to go out after trout next season, all caught their first fish on the dry fly last season. I’ve also more people requesting venison than the number of deer I shoot in a year. People are keen to be involved and as well as young shots days perhaps adults shoot days should be considered as well with discounts for those who opt to join BASC on the day. Exclusivity can be attractive until you need volume support to counter the ever increasing attacks on field sports. It should be borne in mind that it’s not only the converts to field sports that count but their families and friends that they positively influence by creating a link to the field sports experience.

 

Edited January 2 by Konor

[London Best]

46 minutes ago, Konor said:

Accessibility and expense would be a contributor too to becoming involved in shooting sports. I’m based in the city and am inundated with workmates wanting to try clay shooting at a cost that is more reasonable than involving professional coaching, without exception all are keen to go out again. I find a similar situation with loch trout fishing ,lots of people keen to try it out but in this case it’s a lack of guidance that holds people back also everyone isn’t prepared to invest money in equipment when they don’t know if they will continue with the sport. My being able to loan out equipment overcomes that hurdle. I’ve half a dozen people from work keen to go out after trout next season, all caught their first fish on the dry fly last season. I’ve also more people requesting venison than the number of deer I shoot in a year. People are keen to be involved and as well as young shots days perhaps adults shoot days should be considered as well with discounts for those who opt to join BASC on the day. Exclusivity can be attractive until you need volume support to counter the ever increasing attacks on field sports. It should be borne in mind that it’s not only the converts to field sports that count but their families and friends that they positively influence by creating a link to the field sports experience.

 

Good post.

[Konor]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Good post.

Thank you .I’m more at home celebrating than moaning and I’ve been preoccupied with the latter these last few days.