Rewulf Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said: In the sense of this thread...no. It has yet again degenerated into a few people attempting to "hold BASC to account" for a poorly communicated decision 4 years ago. These same people, presumably otherwise quite intelligent, will not engage with the idea of the 'precautionary principle' that UK and EU REACH work to. Whether or not the science is 'settled' on lead toxicity is unimportant, the move is to legislate it out of existence, as has been done elsewhere in life. I think the precautionary principle IS important, as is the science, but when there is no evidence of harm due to lead toxicity from shooting, then we have a problem. With decades of shooting , involving millions of people, there is virtually no evidence of injury or death from lead ingestion. In fact , death and injury from lead poisoning is virtually non existent since we stopped sending kids down lead mines. Are police and armed forces going lead free, to 'mitigate the risks' ? Are we banning lead additives in av gas ? Then there is the ever present , and ignored issue with lead in drinking water.https://theconversation.com/what-contaminants-lurk-in-the-uks-drinking-water-an-expert-explains-167734 So the move to 'legislate it out of existence' is a wasted mission, and practical moves usually replace it with something quite possibly worse, like microplastics. But Ill say it again, its not about lead , its about gun ownership, and shooting in general, we could be firing biodegradable projectiles with no harmful properties at all , and the broader non shooting populace still wouldnt like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 I blame television. Very few people were scared of guns before the 1950’s when the masses started to watch a killing every few minutes on tv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 I'm surprised they haven't banned hand guns, as there are many deaths due to their ownership. Then again - they did ban them, but the deaths continue. Perhaps they could persuade criminals to use a lead alternative to save lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 54 minutes ago, London Best said: I blame television. Very few people were scared of guns before the 1950’s when the masses started to watch a killing every few minutes on tv. Couldnt agree more, along with rap videos , video games ect.... What kills more people, legally held guns , or illegally held guns...? 7 minutes ago, Gordon R said: I'm surprised they haven't banned hand guns, as there are many deaths due to their ownership. Then again - they did ban them, but the deaths continue. Perhaps they could persuade criminals to use a lead alternative to save lives. Exactly, rather than worry about lead shot, and its effects on the environment, why not make strides into tackling gun and knife crime ? Make sentences a real deterrent , possession of an illegal handgun or ammunition for it, a mandatory 15 year stretch, none of this 'Ive had a tough life' BS. Focus the budget on things that really do injure and kill people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 Funnily enough, pressure groups concentrate on matters which affect law abiding citizens and completely ignore criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 (edited) 10 hours ago, Konor said: It’s early days yet Conor so I’m assuming you and Terry will respond to my posts a bit later in the day. I don't think there is much more if anything to respond to that has not already been responded to in endless discussions in recent months. I appreciate you are passionate in your views and want to get those across to BASC and I have advised you several times now across several threads to engage with BASC formally - for example at the BASC AGM tommorow morning - the fifth AGM since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting was announced by nine orgs in Feb 2020. Indeed the July 2020 AGM was online so there were really no excuses for you not to get involved - given the amount of spare time you clearly have to spend online on PW. So, if you really have conviction in your beliefs and "holding BASC to account" perhaps invest the time and effort now and make the trip to BASC HQ tommorow and you will have opportunity to talk to the Chairman, the CEO, all members of Council, the Council candidates up for election AND the opportunity to put a question (s) to the floor of the meeting with all present and those Q&As going on record forever in the BASC AGM minutes. https://basc.org.uk/basc-council-elections/ You also state that you "have no wish to engage with the organisation" which is contradictory and perplexing given your other comments about "holding BASC to account" and the fact that you continue to comment ad nauseum on PW and now seemingly demanding replies of me on a daily morning basis. I think its time for you to get off the keyboard and get involved face to face with BASC - and if you refuse to attend the AGM and really are based in Scotland then there are plenty of events in your area ahead this summer. Edited May 17 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 (edited) 13 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I don't think there is much more if anything to respond to that has not already been responded to in endless discussions in recent months. I appreciate you are passionate in your views and want to get those across to BASC and I have advised you several times now across several threads to engage with BASC formally - for example at the BASC AGM tommorow morning - the fifth AGM since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting was announced by nine orgs in Feb 2020. Indeed the July 2020 AGM was online so there were really no excuses for you not to get involved - given the amount of spare time you clearly have to spend online on PW. So, if you really have conviction in your beliefs and "holding BASC to account" perhaps invest the time and effort now and make the trip to BASC HQ tommorow and you will have opportunity to talk to the Chairman, the CEO, all members of Council, the Council candidates up for election AND the opportunity to put a question (s) to the floor of the meeting with all present and those Q&As going on record forever in the BASC AGM minutes. https://basc.org.uk/basc-council-elections/ You also state that you "have no wish to engage with the organisation" which is contradictory and perplexing given your other comments about "holding BASC to account" and the fact that you continue to comment ad nauseum on PW and now seemingly demanding replies of me on a daily morning basis. I think its time for you to get off the keyboard and get involved face to face with BASC - and if you refuse to attend the AGM and really are based in Scotland then there are plenty of events in your area ahead this summer. I'm in Galway city on holiday at the moment and have been here this last week so I will not be cutting my holiday short to attend. I'm sorry if you consider I have commented ad nauseum but if you had dealt with the points I had raised there would have been no necessity to endlessly repeat myself. On that theme I don't think that you have even acknowledged that BASC policy is still to oppose any further restrictions on the use of lead shot as you wrote on May 24th 2022,that still is the case right? BASC involvement, no thanks I've not yet decided which side you are really on. From the perpetual reference to the toxicity of lead inland with no data to back those strong opinions and seemingly little drive to oppose the anti fieldsports opponents I think I'll pass. BASC no longer has the standing it once enjoyed unfortunately and your posts and others reflect part of the reason for that. Posting on this forum ensures a wide platform and the answers given, or in many cases not given, to the points I raise give me the opportunity to publicly hold BASC to account better than any poorly attended AGM. I think BASCs relevance is waning and is perceived as such by the average shooter. Hopefully someone may suggest a way out of the sorry mess you find yourself in at tomorrow's AGM, stop digging was unheeded advice weeks ago and that would be a start, climbing out of that hole will take a little more effort and imagination. I hope you get there but this political habit of ignoring questions or answering with irrelevancies, deflecting from the issues, questioning the integrity of posters, obsession with private phone calls, anthropomorphic references regarding poor wee chicks and minefields of lead shot threatening their existence when they are being commercially bred to slaughter are all transparent tactics to avoid just simply answering the question. You have your political goal and that will come with collateral damage but I feel you are failing to protect the interests of ordinary shooters the likes of whom formed your organisafion and instead have opted to side with commercial shooting who ironically are arguably guilty for most of the lead shot pollution you profess to oppose. Perhaps the government will opt to follow the precautionary principle regarding tobacco and have cigarettes banned or perhaps unlike lead shot there is no political advantage in doing so and so that may never happen perhaps a warning on the side of each box of cartridges regarding potential toxic effects on the environment of using the contents of this box would suffice it seems to do for cigarettes despite the masses of research that prove it's toxicity to humans. Perhaps BASC will simply defend grass roots shooters and turn it's back on the commercial shooting industry Aye right,as we say in Scotland when you know something is bllx. Edited May 18 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 (edited) 22 hours ago, Konor said: I'm in Galway city on holiday at the moment and have been here this last week so I will not be cutting my holiday short to attend. I'm sorry if you consider I have commented ad nauseum but if you had dealt with the points I had raised there would have been no necessity to endlessly repeat myself. On that theme I don't think that you have even acknowledged that BASC policy is still to oppose any further restrictions on the use of lead shot as you wrote on May 24th 2022,that still is the case right? BASC involvement, no thanks I've not yet decided which side you are really on. From the perpetual reference to the toxicity of lead inland with no data to back those strong opinions and seemingly little drive to oppose the anti fieldsports opponents I think I'll pass. BASC no longer has the standing it once enjoyed unfortunately and your posts and others reflect part of the reason for that. Posting on this forum ensures a wide platform and the answers given, or in many cases not given, to the points I raise give me the opportunity to publicly hold BASC to account better than any poorly attended AGM. I think BASCs relevance is waning and is perceived as such by the average shooter. Hopefully someone may suggest a way out of the sorry mess you find yourself in at tomorrow's AGM, stop digging was unheeded advice weeks ago and that would be a start, climbing out of that hole will take a little more effort and imagination. I hope you get there but this political habit of ignoring questions or answering with irrelevancies, deflecting from the issues, questioning the integrity of posters, obsession with private phone calls, anthropomorphic references regarding poor wee chicks and minefields of lead shot threatening their existence when they are being commercially bred to slaughter are all transparent tactics to avoid just simply answering the question. You have your political goal and that will come with collateral damage but I feel you are failing to protect the interests of ordinary shooters the likes of whom formed your organisafion and instead have opted to side with commercial shooting who ironically are arguably guilty for most of the lead shot pollution you profess to oppose. Perhaps the government will opt to follow the precautionary principle regarding tobacco and have cigarettes banned or perhaps unlike lead shot there is no political advantage in doing so and so that may never happen perhaps a warning on the side of each box of cartridges regarding potential toxic effects on the environment of using the contents of this box would suffice it seems to do for cigarettes despite the masses of research that prove it's toxicity to humans. Perhaps BASC will simply defend grass roots shooters and turn it's back on the commercial shooting industry Aye right,as we say in Scotland when you know something is bllx. Galway is a nice city and a good base to explore the West of Ireland and I wish you and yours a lovely time there - and if you have not already done so a day trip to the Aran Islands is recommended. Well, that is 5 AGMs in a row you have missed to get across your concerns directly to BASC Council members since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting was announced in Feb 2020. Posting on PW does not cut it especially given what you post. Maybe next year will be the year you come out from behind the keyboard. Or perhaps this summer? Are you attending any country shows in Scotland this summer? Edited May 18 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 Conor O'Gorman, does BASC address any issues at an AGM? Do they not offer questioners a link or a podcast? It seems to be the standard answer, with the offer of a phone call in reserve. You harp on about missed opportunities, but never answer a straight question. It's beyond embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 7 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Conor O'Gorman, does BASC address any issues at an AGM? Do they not offer questioners a link or a podcast? It seems to be the standard answer, with the offer of a phone call in reserve. You harp on about missed opportunities, but never answer a straight question. It's beyond embarrassing. BASC AGM offers opportunities to ask questions, to submit motions etc. See the minutes of BASC AGMs. I am surprised you do not understand the democratic process at BASC given your many posts about BASC and rarely, if any, other organisations. What shooting organisation are you a member of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 Why do you assume I am not a member of BASC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Galway is a nice city and a good base to explore the West of Ireland and I wish you and yours a lovely time there - and if you have not already done so a day trip to the Aran Islands is recommended. Well, that is 5 AGMs in a row you have missed to get across your concerns directly to BASC Council members since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting was announced in Feb 2020. Posting on PW does not cut it especially given what you post. Maybe next year will be the year you come out from behind the keyboard. Or perhaps this summer? Are you attending any country shows in Scotland this summer? Why stir the pot, Conor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 12 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Why do you assume I am not a member of BASC? Are you a BASC member? 7 minutes ago, Smudger687 said: Why stir the pot, Conor? Do you think that Konor should engage directly with BASC with his/her concerns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 17 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Are you a BASC member? Do you think that Konor should engage directly with BASC with his/her concerns? Konor is engaging on the social media platform that you (BASC) posted on 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 3 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Konor is engaging on the social media platform that you (BASC) posted on 🤔 He/she is hijacking many BASC threads and making demands that BASC follow his/her policies. You have been on here a while. Do you not consider the behaviour rather odd, even obsessive in its nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Do you think that Konor should engage directly with BASC with his/her concerns? I wish you and Terry (Behan, presumably) would engage with us when we raise concerns. Alas, I'm reminded of the (in)famous quote of Alexander Solzhenitsyn: "We know they're lying. They know we know they're lying. And they still lie" This is how I feel about you, about Terry, and about BASC generally. If yours and Terry's responses on this Forum are in any way indicative of what goes on at an AGM I'm not surprised that you don't get more engagement, neither of you listens, you just ignore everything, admit nothing, and obstruct. It's nauseating. Please do us all a favour and just stop posting on this Forum. You wind us all up, I'm sure we wind you up, why bother? You can go back to catering to the wealthy estates as per BASC policy, and we can go back to looking up alternative hobbies to shooting because we're all gradually being pushed out of the sport. Cheers. Edited May 18 by Smudger687 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: He/she is hijacking many BASC threads and making demands that BASC follow his/her policies. You have been on here a while. Do you not consider the behaviour rather odd, even obsessive in its nature? Not at all honest opinion views and constructive criticism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Do you not consider the behaviour rather odd, even obsessive in its nature? I consider your rude and condescending responses, and complete inability to answer straightforward questions 'odd'. Especially considering you are an intelligent professional man , representing a large organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Galway is a nice city and a good base to explore the West of Ireland and I wish you and yours a lovely time there - and if you have not already done so a day trip to the Aran Islands is recommended. Well, that is 5 AGMs in a row you have missed to get across your concerns directly to BASC Council members since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting was announced in Feb 2020. Posting on PW does not cut it especially given what you post. Maybe next year will be the year you come out from behind the keyboard. Or perhaps this summer? Are you attending any country shows in Scotland this summer? 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: He/she is hijacking many BASC threads and making demands that BASC follow his/her policies. You have been on here a while. Do you not consider the behaviour rather odd, even obsessive in its nature? Reading through your posts I find your own behaviour more than a bit odd. You seem more concerned with personalising the posts content rather than just discussing the issues I have raised. In fact I don’t think that you have satisfactorily addressed any of my posts ,all of which ask pertinent questions regarding various aspects of the handling of the issues surrounding lead shot use inland .As a consequence I am minded to question why that is. You have stated that I have made demands that BASC should follow my policies which is a rather bizarre interpretation of my posts , they certainly question your/BASC’s policies which I find both inconsistent and contrary to the best interests of the average field shooter but I don’t think it is accurate to state that I demand anything in any of my posts. That sounds rather like a weak attempt to question my stability ,was that your aim ? Dare I say that your personal remarks regarding wishing me a lovely time on holiday followed a couple of hours later with the statement that you consider my behaviour rather odd even obsessive does sound alarm bells. However the fact that you consistently use deflection within your reply posts rather than simply answer or address the post you are replying to perhaps puts it in a context. To sum it all up Conor I feel your latest posts are a consequence of anger that I dare continue to question the content of your own posts and BASC’s inconsistent and at times baffling approach to the issue of lead shot use inland. That you fail to face up to the issues raised by concerned fieldsports enthusiasts and fail to deal with those concerns appropriately is the issue and cannot be written off as you being a victim of some odd obsessive. Thankfully my posts and yours can be read and our interaction put in perspective by anyone willing to take the time to do so so I am not minded to complain officially but please try to stick to the point and if you feel the content of my posts merits some personal abuse then feel free as I am fairly thick skinned but could you perhaps refrain from claiming you are the victim of some odd obsessive to deflect from your failure to address the points in my posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 Quote Do you not consider the behaviour rather odd, even obsessive in its nature? Conor O'Gorman. It must have taken a lot to write that rubbish. Your conduct on here has been characterised by evasion, deflection and silly offers of a private phone call. The more worrying aspect is that you consider others odd. Priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 Carrying on from the op original post I dug up on and recovered another from my control zone 4 years on it would appear that the buried one is starting to shrink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 18 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Carrying on from the op original post I dug up on and recovered another from my control zone 4 years on it would appear that the buried one is starting to shrink Has it lost any weight or just become denser as it has shrunk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 1 hour ago, Konor said: Has it lost any weight or just become denser as it has shrunk? Denser same weight as the others and the new case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 44 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Denser same weight as the others and the new case Not going anywhere then. I always used to favour paper cases but never failed to pick them up and take them home. Cartridge consumption was a lot lower then of course. Cartridges bought a couple of boxes at a time and the birds were wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry2016 Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 Dear All, I am more than happy to host a team's call with you to discuss face to face. Individually or as a group. All you need to do is message with your details, and we can arrange, that way you do not have to travel etc, If you have genuine concerns and would like a conversation to discuss any points. I do not engage on here often and when i have i have tried to clarify concerns of people. So, if you have questions or concerns i will set up a meeting. Please let me know Best Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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