oowee Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 16 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Fixed it! 🤣 🤣Russians have shot down 10 of the f16's already and destroyed twice as many planes as Ukraine had at the start of the war. They talk abso blocks. There propaganda tv even had a film of Ukraine shooting there own soldiers last week that was film from a Ukrainian drone of russians the week before. If it was going to plan they would not be attacking in golf cars and chasing the world for recruits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 12 hours ago, oowee said: If it was going to plan they would not be attacking in golf cars and chasing the world for recruits. If it was going to plan for Ukraine , they wouldn't be stealing civilians cars to get to the front , and trying to deport refugees back from EU countries to fight. And let's not talk about the Ukrainian economy solely dependent on western money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 12 hours ago, oowee said: 🤣 🤣Russians have shot down 10 of the f16's already and destroyed twice as many planes as Ukraine had at the start of the war. They talk abso blocks. There propaganda tv even had a film of Ukraine shooting there own soldiers last week that was film from a Ukrainian drone of russians the week before. If it was going to plan they would not be attacking in golf cars and chasing the world for recruits. Strawman argument Strawman argument Strawman argument Ukraine over 14,000 dead and wounded in the last week.... Fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 Just now, Stonepark said: Strawman argument Strawman argument Strawman argument Ukraine over 14,000 dead and wounded in the last week.... Fact Please share the source of this factual information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Please share the source of this factual information. Same place everywhere else gets it but MSM choose not to publish as they don't wish to scare the public by telling the truth....... And importantly, no one at government level denies it's accuracy on either side..... Daily report and just add 7 days totals together.. example below is for 2100 Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation (10 July 2024)▫️The units of the Sever Group of Forces have engaged manpower and hardware of the AFU 31st Mechanised Brigade, 34th, 36th marine brigades, 113th, 127th territorial defence brigades, and the 13th National Guard Brigade close to Volchansk, Malye Prokhody, Borschevaya, Vilcha, Glubokoye, and Liptsy (Kharkov). Two counter-attacks by the AFU 92nd Assault Brigade and the 42nd Separate Assault Battalion have been repelled. The AFU lost up to 275 servicemen, one Kazak AFV, two MVs, one 155-mm U.S.-made M777 howitzer, 122-mm D-30 howitzer, and one Anklav-N electronic warfare station.▫️The units of the Zapad Group of Forces have captured more advantageous lines, defeated 14th, 30th, 44th mechanised brigades of the AFU, the 110th Territorial Defence, the 12th Azov Special Forces Brigade near Kupyansk, Sinkovka, Petropavlovka (Kharkov), Makeyevka (LPR), and Torskoye (DPR). The AFU losses were up to 495 servicemen, one tank, eight MVs, one U.S.-made M777 howitzer, two 122-mm Gvozdika self-propelled artillery systems, one 152-mm D-20 howitzers, one Anklav-N electronic warfare station, and one U.S.-made AN/TPQ-50 counter-battery warfare station.▫️The units of the Yug Group of Forces have improved the situation along the front line and inflicted losses on manpower and hardware of 28th, 31st, 33rd, 118th mechanised, 79th air assault brigades of the AFU near Dyleyevka, Grigorovka, Krasnoye, Chasov Yar, Yelizavetovka, Uspenovka, Dalneye, and Kurakhovo (DPR). The AFU lost up to 600 servicemen, six MVs, two 152-mm D-20 howitzers, and two 105-mm U.S.-made M119 howitzers. In addition, two Anklav electronic warfare stations and one field ammunition depot have been eliminated.▫️The units of the Tsentr Group of Forces have improved the tactical situation and inflicted losses on 32nd, 41st, 47nd, 110th, 118th mechanised brigades of the AFU and the 129th Territorial Defence Brigade close to Vozdvizhenka, Yelizavetovka, Artyomovo, Druzhba, Timofeyevka, and Toretsk (DPR). Five counter-attacks of AFU 31st mechanised, 142nd infantry, and 95th air assault brigades have been repelled. The AFU lost up to 510 servicemen, one German-made Marder IFV, two MVs, and two 122-mm D-30 howitzers.▫️The units of the Vostok Group of Forces have captured more advantageous lines and inflicted losses on manpower and hardware of AFU 1st tank, 58th motorised infantry, 128th territorial defence brigades, the 21st National Guard Brigade near Oktyabr, Urozhainoye, and Velikaya Novosyolka (DPR). In addition, Russian troops have repelled one attack launched by an assault detachment of the 108th Territorial Defence Brigade. The AFU lost up to 135 servicemen, three MVs, one 155-mm UK-made FH-70 howitzer, one 155-mm U.S.-made M198 howitzer, and one 155-mm Bogdana self-propelled artillery system. In addition, one enemy field ammunition depot has also been destroyed.▫️The units of the Dnepr Group of Forces have engaged manpower and hardware of the AFU 22nd Mechanised Brigade, the 35th Marine Brigade close to Antonovka, Tokarevka, and Sadovoye (Kherson). The AFU losses were up to 85 Ukrainian troops, four MVs, and two 152-mm D-20 howitzers. One artillery ammunition depot has been destroyed.▫️Operational-Tactical Aviation, UAVs, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Russian Groups have eliminated one U.S.-made AN/MPQ-46 radar station, three U.S.-made Imroved HAWK surface-to-air missile system launchers, storage depots for AFU uncrewed boats have been hit, as well as AFU manpower and military hardware clusters in 131 areas.▫️Air defence facilities have shot down one Mig-29 aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force, 55 UAVs, four U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles, three U.S.-made HIMARS MLRS projectiles, and four French-made HAMMER guided aerial bombs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 2 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Same place everywhere else gets it but MSM choose not to publish as they don't wish to scare the public by telling the truth....... And importantly, no one at government level denies it's accuracy on either side..... Daily report and just add 7 days totals together.. example below is for 2100 Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation (10 July 2024)▫️The units of the Sever Group of Forces have engaged manpower and hardware of the AFU 31st Mechanised Brigade, 34th, 36th marine brigades, 113th, 127th territorial defence brigades, and the 13th National Guard Brigade close to Volchansk, Malye Prokhody, Borschevaya, Vilcha, Glubokoye, and Liptsy (Kharkov). Two counter-attacks by the AFU 92nd Assault Brigade and the 42nd Separate Assault Battalion have been repelled. The AFU lost up to 275 servicemen, one Kazak AFV, two MVs, one 155-mm U.S.-made M777 howitzer, 122-mm D-30 howitzer, and one Anklav-N electronic warfare station.▫️The units of the Zapad Group of Forces have captured more advantageous lines, defeated 14th, 30th, 44th mechanised brigades of the AFU, the 110th Territorial Defence, the 12th Azov Special Forces Brigade near Kupyansk, Sinkovka, Petropavlovka (Kharkov), Makeyevka (LPR), and Torskoye (DPR). The AFU losses were up to 495 servicemen, one tank, eight MVs, one U.S.-made M777 howitzer, two 122-mm Gvozdika self-propelled artillery systems, one 152-mm D-20 howitzers, one Anklav-N electronic warfare station, and one U.S.-made AN/TPQ-50 counter-battery warfare station.▫️The units of the Yug Group of Forces have improved the situation along the front line and inflicted losses on manpower and hardware of 28th, 31st, 33rd, 118th mechanised, 79th air assault brigades of the AFU near Dyleyevka, Grigorovka, Krasnoye, Chasov Yar, Yelizavetovka, Uspenovka, Dalneye, and Kurakhovo (DPR). The AFU lost up to 600 servicemen, six MVs, two 152-mm D-20 howitzers, and two 105-mm U.S.-made M119 howitzers. In addition, two Anklav electronic warfare stations and one field ammunition depot have been eliminated.▫️The units of the Tsentr Group of Forces have improved the tactical situation and inflicted losses on 32nd, 41st, 47nd, 110th, 118th mechanised brigades of the AFU and the 129th Territorial Defence Brigade close to Vozdvizhenka, Yelizavetovka, Artyomovo, Druzhba, Timofeyevka, and Toretsk (DPR). Five counter-attacks of AFU 31st mechanised, 142nd infantry, and 95th air assault brigades have been repelled. The AFU lost up to 510 servicemen, one German-made Marder IFV, two MVs, and two 122-mm D-30 howitzers.▫️The units of the Vostok Group of Forces have captured more advantageous lines and inflicted losses on manpower and hardware of AFU 1st tank, 58th motorised infantry, 128th territorial defence brigades, the 21st National Guard Brigade near Oktyabr, Urozhainoye, and Velikaya Novosyolka (DPR). In addition, Russian troops have repelled one attack launched by an assault detachment of the 108th Territorial Defence Brigade. The AFU lost up to 135 servicemen, three MVs, one 155-mm UK-made FH-70 howitzer, one 155-mm U.S.-made M198 howitzer, and one 155-mm Bogdana self-propelled artillery system. In addition, one enemy field ammunition depot has also been destroyed.▫️The units of the Dnepr Group of Forces have engaged manpower and hardware of the AFU 22nd Mechanised Brigade, the 35th Marine Brigade close to Antonovka, Tokarevka, and Sadovoye (Kherson). The AFU losses were up to 85 Ukrainian troops, four MVs, and two 152-mm D-20 howitzers. One artillery ammunition depot has been destroyed.▫️Operational-Tactical Aviation, UAVs, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Russian Groups have eliminated one U.S.-made AN/MPQ-46 radar station, three U.S.-made Imroved HAWK surface-to-air missile system launchers, storage depots for AFU uncrewed boats have been hit, as well as AFU manpower and military hardware clusters in 131 areas.▫️Air defence facilities have shot down one Mig-29 aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force, 55 UAVs, four U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles, three U.S.-made HIMARS MLRS projectiles, and four French-made HAMMER guided aerial bombs. You get this from the Russians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 5 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Same place everywhere else gets it but MSM choose not to publish as they don't wish to scare the public by telling the truth....... And importantly, no one at government level denies it's accuracy on either side..... Daily report and just add 7 days totals together.. example below is for 2100 Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation (10 July 2024)▫️The units of the Sever Group of Forces have engaged manpower and hardware of the AFU 31st Mechanised Brigade, 34th, 36th marine brigades, 113th, 127th territorial defence brigades, and the 13th National Guard Brigade close to Volchansk, Malye Prokhody, Borschevaya, Vilcha, Glubokoye, and Liptsy (Kharkov). Two counter-attacks by the AFU 92nd Assault Brigade and the 42nd Separate Assault Battalion have been repelled. The AFU lost up to 275 servicemen, one Kazak AFV, two MVs, one 155-mm U.S.-made M777 howitzer, 122-mm D-30 howitzer, and one Anklav-N electronic warfare station.▫️The units of the Zapad Group of Forces have captured more advantageous lines, defeated 14th, 30th, 44th mechanised brigades of the AFU, the 110th Territorial Defence, the 12th Azov Special Forces Brigade near Kupyansk, Sinkovka, Petropavlovka (Kharkov), Makeyevka (LPR), and Torskoye (DPR). The AFU losses were up to 495 servicemen, one tank, eight MVs, one U.S.-made M777 howitzer, two 122-mm Gvozdika self-propelled artillery systems, one 152-mm D-20 howitzers, one Anklav-N electronic warfare station, and one U.S.-made AN/TPQ-50 counter-battery warfare station.▫️The units of the Yug Group of Forces have improved the situation along the front line and inflicted losses on manpower and hardware of 28th, 31st, 33rd, 118th mechanised, 79th air assault brigades of the AFU near Dyleyevka, Grigorovka, Krasnoye, Chasov Yar, Yelizavetovka, Uspenovka, Dalneye, and Kurakhovo (DPR). The AFU lost up to 600 servicemen, six MVs, two 152-mm D-20 howitzers, and two 105-mm U.S.-made M119 howitzers. In addition, two Anklav electronic warfare stations and one field ammunition depot have been eliminated.▫️The units of the Tsentr Group of Forces have improved the tactical situation and inflicted losses on 32nd, 41st, 47nd, 110th, 118th mechanised brigades of the AFU and the 129th Territorial Defence Brigade close to Vozdvizhenka, Yelizavetovka, Artyomovo, Druzhba, Timofeyevka, and Toretsk (DPR). Five counter-attacks of AFU 31st mechanised, 142nd infantry, and 95th air assault brigades have been repelled. The AFU lost up to 510 servicemen, one German-made Marder IFV, two MVs, and two 122-mm D-30 howitzers.▫️The units of the Vostok Group of Forces have captured more advantageous lines and inflicted losses on manpower and hardware of AFU 1st tank, 58th motorised infantry, 128th territorial defence brigades, the 21st National Guard Brigade near Oktyabr, Urozhainoye, and Velikaya Novosyolka (DPR). In addition, Russian troops have repelled one attack launched by an assault detachment of the 108th Territorial Defence Brigade. The AFU lost up to 135 servicemen, three MVs, one 155-mm UK-made FH-70 howitzer, one 155-mm U.S.-made M198 howitzer, and one 155-mm Bogdana self-propelled artillery system. In addition, one enemy field ammunition depot has also been destroyed.▫️The units of the Dnepr Group of Forces have engaged manpower and hardware of the AFU 22nd Mechanised Brigade, the 35th Marine Brigade close to Antonovka, Tokarevka, and Sadovoye (Kherson). The AFU losses were up to 85 Ukrainian troops, four MVs, and two 152-mm D-20 howitzers. One artillery ammunition depot has been destroyed.▫️Operational-Tactical Aviation, UAVs, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Russian Groups have eliminated one U.S.-made AN/MPQ-46 radar station, three U.S.-made Imroved HAWK surface-to-air missile system launchers, storage depots for AFU uncrewed boats have been hit, as well as AFU manpower and military hardware clusters in 131 areas.▫️Air defence facilities have shot down one Mig-29 aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force, 55 UAVs, four U.S.-made ATACMS operational-tactical missiles, three U.S.-made HIMARS MLRS projectiles, and four French-made HAMMER guided aerial bombs. Thanks for sharing. Looks like an inferred / extrapolated number based on Russian defence ministry reports. Bit of a stretch claiming as fact, isn’t it? 2 minutes ago, oowee said: You get this from the Russians? I hope his source of facts on man made climate change are from a more reliable source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKD Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 Just now, Raja Clavata said: Thanks for sharing. Looks like an inferred / extrapolated number based on Russian defence ministry reports. Bit of a stretch claiming as fact, isn’t it? Everything 'out there' is believable,,,, especially on t'internet 👍🙄😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 Ignorance of law is no mitigation of a criminal act. In this day and age there should be consequences for sharing disinformation, regardless of whether it’s by intent or unintentionally. Fortunately we are not far away from automated agents preventing the spread of such disinformation, at least on responsible platforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Ignorance of law is no mitigation of a criminal act. In this day and age there should be consequences for sharing disinformation, regardless of whether it’s by intent or unintentionally. Fortunately we are not far away from automated agents preventing the spread of such disinformation, at least on responsible platforms. Well in that case you lot would be in jail..... Whether repeating climate disinformation based on incomplete models and pretending it's humans rather than the sun driving it or repeating Ukrainian NAZI propaganda dished out by the MSM.... ....be very careful what you wish for....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 57 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Well in that case you lot would be in jail..... Whether repeating climate disinformation based on incomplete models and pretending it's humans rather than the sun driving it or repeating Ukrainian NAZI propaganda dished out by the MSM.... ....be very careful what you wish for....... Quite possibly a Russian jail if some have their way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Ignorance of law is no mitigation of a criminal act. In this day and age there should be consequences for sharing disinformation, regardless of whether it’s by intent or unintentionally One of the worst purveyors of misinformation in this conflict have been the Ukrainian government, according to them they've wiped out the entire Russian armed forces twice over ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 5 hours ago, Rewulf said: One of the worst purveyors of misinformation in this conflict have been the Ukrainian government, according to them they've wiped out the entire Russian armed forces twice over ! As we know, the first thing lost in war time is the truth. The difference is I don’t think anyone here is stating the Ukraine version of losses as unequivocal fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 (edited) 8 hours ago, Rewulf said: One of the worst purveyors of misinformation in this conflict have been the Ukrainian government, according to them they've wiped out the entire Russian armed forces twice over ! Every day the general staff of Ukraine produce a set of Russian lost stats. They have a process for recording these claims but they cannot be independently verified, particularly with regard to personnel lost. Every day Andrew Perpetua produces a list of hardware losses for both sides that is taken from video evidence. This can be verified and each individual loss video is linked in a spread sheet. Deep state, Andrew and Suriyak (Russian) each produce a daily mapping update. Another blogger is recording equipment drawn from Russian storage from satellite data. There is a direct correlation between much of the data from which it is possible to indicate trends and what is likely to be happening on the front line. It is clear from that data that the Russians do not have access to the levels of armour and artillery that they had at the start of the war. Their use of the tracked garden shed and chinese made golf carts for direct assault would suggest the situation is not good. Even the monthly made T90 tanks and BMP's have not been seen at the front. The Russians simply produce a list of claims. There is neither data or independent analysis to corroborate these claims. Edited July 15 by oowee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 2 minutes ago, oowee said: Every day they produce a set of Russian lost stats. Whilst admitting to no losses of their own. A fair rule of thumb is that Ukraine take a stab at Russian losses, and just stick a zero on the end. 5 minutes ago, oowee said: It is clear from that data that the Russians do not have access to the levels of armour and artillery that they had at the start of the war. Their use of the tracked garden shed and chinese made golf carts for direct assault would suggest the situation is not good. Even the monthly made T90 tanks and BMP's have not been seen at the front. Even if that were true, who is taking ground on a daily basis, and who is losing it? No doubt you will say that it's down to shovel armed Russian meat waves, with a machine gun at their back in case they retreat ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 19 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Ignorance of law is no mitigation of a criminal act. Nope. I'm no lawyer but: Ignorance of the (criminal) law might not be a defence; but it is certainly allowed to be entered in mitigation when the judge is considering his sentence. There are also 'absolute liability offences' which muddy things somewhat. 20 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: In this day and age there should be consequences for sharing disinformation, regardless of whether it’s by intent or unintentionally. And just who should be the arbiter of what constitutes 'disinfromation'? 55 minutes ago, oowee said: They have a process for recording these claims but they cannot be independently verified, particularly with regard to personnel lost. Every day Andrew Perpetua produces a list of hardware losses for both sides that is taken from video evidence. This can be verified and each individual loss video is linked in a spread sheet. Deep state, Andrew and Suriyak (Russian) each produce a daily mapping update. Another blogger is recording equipment drawn from Russian storage from satellite data. What you're alluding to OSINT - Open Source Intelligence. Why are these, clearly time-rich, people only looking at the one side? Could it be because they're being paid for their efforts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: What you're alluding to OSINT - Open Source Intelligence. Why are these, clearly time-rich, people only looking at the one side? Could it be because they're being paid for their efforts? Good example of that is Bellingcat, a supposedly 'independent' OS commentator on pretty much anything anti Russian, who receive donations and support from a branch of NATO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: Nope. I'm no lawyer but: Ignorance of the (criminal) law might not be a defence; but it is certainly allowed to be entered in mitigation when the judge is considering his sentence. There are also 'absolute liability offences' which muddy things somewhat. Nope. I was generalising. 3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: And just who should be the arbiter of what constitutes 'disinfromation'? That’s the crux of the challenge but a “not verified” as fact tag would be a start. The issue of course is then that little information would “tag” free. Complex topic, again I was generalising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said: Nope. I'm no lawyer but: Ignorance of the (criminal) law might not be a defence; but it is certainly allowed to be entered in mitigation when the judge is considering his sentence. There are also 'absolute liability offences' which muddy things somewhat. And just who should be the arbiter of what constitutes 'disinfromation'? What you're alluding to OSINT - Open Source Intelligence. Why are these, clearly time-rich, people only looking at the one side? Could it be because they're being paid for their efforts? One side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Nope. I was generalising. That’s the crux of the challenge but a “not verified” as fact tag would be a start. The issue of course is then that little information would “tag” free. Complex topic, again I was generalising. I think the problem is lack of freedom of speech, further restrictions will only make the divide bigger and thereby the division and hatred worse. Within reason, community will police itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I think the problem is lack of freedom of speech, further restrictions will only make the divide bigger and thereby the division and hatred worse. Within reason, community will police itself. All for free speech but not unverifiable fabrications stated as unequivocal fact. There’s all sorts of things at play including compounded confirmation bias. People have varying awareness of their own biases. For those oblivious it can be the thin end of the wedge towards extreme thoughts (and subsequent extreme actions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udderlyoffroad Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Nope. I was generalising. But you managed to state something factually incorrect. The oft-quoted (but not quite accurate): "ignorance of the law is no defence!" saying is one of those legal tropes that just refuses to die, along with 'pressing charges' and judges banging gavels. 23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Complex topic, again I was generalising. Maybe the government could set up a department to counter 'disinformation'. They could call it, I don't know, "The ministry of Truth" or something. 9 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I think the problem is lack of freedom of speech, further restrictions will only make the divide bigger and thereby the division and hatred worse. Within reason, community will police itself. Agreed. I don't go on Twitter/X much, but one of the improvements since Elon's takeover, community notes, has definitely improved usability. It also manages to mitigate the "A lie can get halfway round the world before the truth has got its boots on" effect, somewhat. 9 minutes ago, oowee said: One side? OSINT is a fascinating subject, and to me at least, far more interesting than generative AI. But it is still dependent on Humans analysing the data and coming to a conclusion, with their inherent biases, not to mention the need to pay the mortgage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: All for free speech but not unverifiable fabrications stated as unequivocal fact. There’s all sorts of things at play including compounded confirmation bias. People have varying awareness of their own biases. For those oblivious it can be the thin end of the wedge towards extreme thoughts (and subsequent extreme actions). I think we need to credit people with a certain level of intelligence, even if there are instances where people get it wrong. Also it opens the door for the truth to be suppressed even if it's unintentionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 51 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said: But you managed to state something factually incorrect. The oft-quoted (but not quite accurate): "ignorance of the law is no defence!" saying is one of those legal tropes that just refuses to die, along with 'pressing charges' and judges banging gavels. Maybe the government could set up a department to counter 'disinformation'. They could call it, I don't know, "The ministry of Truth" or something. Crikey, what I meant was ignorance will not prevent you getting charged if you commit the crime. Better? Who said anything about government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: All for free speech but not unverifiable fabrications stated as unequivocal fact. There’s all sorts of things at play including compounded confirmation bias. People have varying awareness of their own biases. For those oblivious it can be the thin end of the wedge towards extreme thoughts (and subsequent extreme actions). Appealing to a higher authority (the claim for verification by someone the dissenter approves of) is a common tactic by those who cannot accept reality. Likewise, the projection of confirmation bias onto the other party. These are the VERIFIED Russian internationally accepted figures published by Russia on a daily basis and in over 2 years no one serious has disputed them, even the Ukrainian army! As just been proven in the USA, the "normal, well adjusted" people are mainly conservative leaning, whilst the violent, rioting, left leaning, anti freedom of speech extremists are normally those who cannot accept others facts and views as truth due to being mired in their narrative and who act out. It is not those who seek to expose and tell the truth who are the problem but those who seek to hide the truth that should be feared and the first thing the UK Gov and EU did, was block and ban any Russian sources of information, their media and made it difficult to find out information first hand..... otherwise UK and EU support for Ukraine would have been almost non-existant! Edited July 15 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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