BIo Ammo hulls

[flippermaj]

Does anyone have any recent evidence of how quickly the Bio Ammo hull breaks down in the natural environment?  
 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I think Oldfarrier was watching some and hadn't seen any breakdown over several months.

[PeterHenry]

This one has been in this very muddy pond for about two years now - I have its possition marked with a stick.

[Old farrier]

5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I think Oldfarrier was watching some and hadn't seen any breakdown over several months.

Years sadly 3 coming up to 4 years not exactly bio in my opinion 

think they will only breakdown in a commercial composter 

[flippermaj]

That is scandalous!  Thanks for the answers though, no chance of me getting a semi now as they don’t degrade!!!!

[Fargo]

They are the same as the Hydro wad from Hull or Greencore wad..

Be there in 50 years time.

 

[rbrowning2]

7 hours ago, Fargo said:

They are the same as the Hydro wad from Hull or Greencore wad..

Be there in 50 years time.

 

But hopefully not in 500 years like single use plastic.  However as customers we should know what we are buying by better information on the packaging so we can make an informed decision.

 

[Smudger687]

22 hours ago, flippermaj said:

Does anyone have any recent evidence of how quickly the Bio Ammo hull breaks down in the natural environment?  
 

They don't break down as far as we all understand it. They're made of PLA which effectively behaves like normal plastic outside of an industrial digester, though there is some evidence that PLA breaks down into microplastics faster than HDPE, so it's arguably even worse. 

[Cawdor118]

21 hours ago, Fargo said:

They are the same as the Hydro wad from Hull or Greencore wad..

Be there in 50 years time.

 

Greencore will go in 6 months i believe? They need to be in contact with carbon in the soil. 

[Fargo]

51 minutes ago, Cawdor118 said:

Greencore will go in 6 months i believe? They need to be in contact with carbon in the soil. 

Not from from what I have seen

Local estates banned them in the B&P loads and the hydro wads now  

[Cawdor118]

15 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Not from from what I have seen

Local estates banned them in the B&P loads and the hydro wads now  

Interesting, I think I will do an experiment 👍

[Vince Green]

It was so much easier when we all had paper cartridges and fibre wads.

[jall25]

Many of us are using the Eley ones and they break down at an incredible rate

Looks like a slug mating patch a day or two after on some of the tracks 

[flippermaj]

Eley wads are fine for dissolving but no one seems to make a proper bio degradable hull so if you use a semi and can’t find the empties that’s plenty of plastic getting left in prime eco systems like salt marshes etc.  hence I won’t use a semi until some one can get me a proper degradable hull

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, jall25 said:

Many of us are using the Eley ones and they break down at an incredible rate

Looks like a slug mating patch a day or two after on some of the tracks 

The Eley wad's slits are moulded, not knife cut. This causes big gaps in the wad where the slits occur. I fired off a total of 3 of their eco steels and as far as I can tell each shot scored the forcing cone.

[PeterHenry]

29 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

The Eley wad's slits are moulded, not knife cut. This causes big gaps in the wad where the slits occur. I fired off a total of 3 of their eco steels and as far as I can tell each shot scored the forcing cone.

I bought some, cut them open, took one look at the wads and said no thanks.

There were pellets afully close to being pushed through the wads prior to being fired - so heaven only knows what happens once the trigger is pulled....

[jall25]

8 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

The Eley wad's slits are moulded, not knife cut. This causes big gaps in the wad where the slits occur. I fired off a total of 3 of their eco steels and as far as I can tell each shot scored the forcing cone.

Im not sure about that Smudger

I have now fired circa 500 and the whole shoot circa 5000 with no issues 

[rbrowning2]

9 hours ago, flippermaj said:

 hence I won’t use a semi until some one can get me a proper degradable hull

They already exist, as Vince posted, paper cases as micro organisms exist in the environment to eat cellulose, but none exist to eat plastic. Then both gamebore and Jocker use paper cup wads.

 Both wad and case must be able to work at the pressure and forces present within the gun when pulling the trigger.

Just because a wad disappears quickly from the environment, does not mean it is doing no harm to that environment.
The material used to make green core, hydrowads, earth wads etc meet the EN standard for biodegradable plastic what’s not clear is if the wad made from the material meets the standard which they likely may not, earth wads do not for example, then if compostable is that within an industrial composter environment. An environment that will not be found in nature.

Simply put the transition to non toxic shot, which for most of us is steel shot only becomes tenable if used with a biodegradable wad, ideally mass made by injection moulding yet the plastics material industry has really yet to solve that challenge for are use, so we can only hide behind the EN standard for the moment.

 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Have we been mislead by Bio Ammo?

From there website;

"HUNTING SHOTSHELLS
Our hunting GAME shotshells are characterized by their high velocity, effective lethality, consistent patterning and maximum comfort for the shooter who can choose between three different types of shot (lead, steel or alloy.)
Components are specifically and carefully designed  and chosen for each modality with, for example, nine types of fully compostable wads and a selection of the best double-based powders from the United States being used in the  assembly process."

 

I bought in to the Bio Ammo FULLY BIODEGRADABLE Shells at the start and used them over ground that would not allow plastic wads, quite understandably.

My Son took a slab up north and went to a Clay Pigeon Shooting Ground and happened to mention the shells he wanted to use when booking in, he was asked not to use them as they had sheep grazing the shooting area.

 

I was impressed with the polymer wad and how the shells brought down wood pigeons.

 

Then I started to look at whether the cases and the wads would actually break down in nature. They DON'T!

 

They ONLY break down in Industrial strength composters, now I could put the cases in to one of them, but the wads were all over the place, brown in colour and only a few could be picked up.

I now use the remaining BIO AMMO shells that I have at clay shooting grounds that allow plastic wads.

 

I feel that Bio Ammo were misleading in their claims.

 

[Smudger687]

3 hours ago, jall25 said:

Im not sure about that Smudger

I have now fired circa 500 and the whole shoot circa 5000 with no issues 

Well I am sure about it, as I fired said cartridges through my new gun that had only had lead and bismuth through it and then found it had been scored afterwards. I have pictures of the scoring, the eley rep inspected it and admitted scoring had happened.

12 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

I bought some, cut them open, took one look at the wads and said no thanks.

There were pellets afully close to being pushed through the wads prior to being fired - so heaven only knows what happens once the trigger is pulled....

Yep, braindead choice from eley and I regret not listening to my gut when I tried them. I'll wait until the new Joker cartridges with their 2nd gen wad arrives. I was a sent a few and they resist pellet penetration more than the clay and game fibre cup. They look very promising. 

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

Well I am sure about it, as I fired said cartridges through my new gun that had only had lead and bismuth through it and then found it had been scored afterwards. I have pictures of the scoring, the eley rep inspected it and admitted scoring had happened.

Yep, braindead choice from eley and I regret not listening to my gut when I tried them. I'll wait until the new Joker cartridges with their 2nd gen wad arrives. I was a sent a few and they resist pellet penetration more than the clay and game fibre cup. They look very promising. 

👍

Just incase anyone wants to know how suspect an unfired Eley wad can look

[Old farrier]

21 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

👍

Just incase anyone wants to know how suspect an unfired Eley wad can look

Thanks for posting the picture 

think I’ll pass on those until the development process is improved 

[PeterHenry]

4 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Thanks for posting the picture 

think I’ll pass on those until the development process is improved 

👍

[flippermaj]

Peter, out of interest have you done the same wad comparison with a say a Gamebore plastic wad loaded with steel?

[PeterHenry]

4 hours ago, flippermaj said:

Peter, out of interest have you done the same wad comparison with a say a Gamebore plastic wad loaded with steel?

I have some photos of Lyalvale plastic wads (precision steel) that I recoved after fireing, and wasn't particularly impressed with - but no Gamebore sorry. I don't think I've ever fired a box of them in my life. My nearest gun shops stock Lyalvale, Lyalvale, Lyalvale and little else - I had to go quite out of my way to buy the Eley ones.

I'll add, just so that I don't give the impression I'm anti steel - I have no issues with steel from a shooting perspective - i'm just constantly unimpressed with it from a not damaging my guns perspective. The only guns I have with score marks in the barrels are my pair of AYA's and my Browning - which are coincidently the only guns I've used with steel.

Edited yesterday at 00:10 by PeterHenry