National campaign launched to tackle firearm certificate fraud

[ehb102]

The numbers could have increased tenfold, gone from one to ten! My tweet to the NCA:

'Dear @NCA_UK Is it true that the number cited in "This year, an increasing number of fraudulent firearms documents have been used in an attempt to unlawfully acquire legally held firearms” was actually less than ten? @BASCnews members want to know. ' 

If you have no numbers then it must be a low number. And if you have a low number then be honest about it. 

[Pushandpull]

A fraud of this type would very soon come to light following the transferor's notification to the police and hopefully retribution would follow. In a lifetime's involvement with rifles and shotguns I have never heard of such a case nor seen a court report of one. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

11 hours ago, jall25 said:

I think you do get queries Conor but seem unwilling to give them "air" time 

That's disappointing. I have had no queries, it's as simple as that - why do you doubt my integrity - have I not replied to every email you sent me over the years on innumerable topics and queries?

11 hours ago, Scully said:

I can’t admit to knowing 150,000 firearms owners, but I do know a lot, and since you posted the claims of the NCA I’ve done a lot of beating and shooting, and a lot of asking, and not a single person ( and they consist of shooters from the Borders region of Scotland, Durham and Newcastle, and all regions in between, has heard anything regarding stolen or forged tickets. I’ve no doubt it could have happened, but if so to what extent? Has there been a ‘surge’ or is it simply yet another government sponsored dept’ trying to push an agenda we all know exists? 
We are privy to all manner of government statistics including gun crime, knife crime, drug fuelled crime, crimes against children and all manner of serious matter, but for some reason NOT statistics regarding a ‘surge’ in certificate fraud. 🤷‍♂️

Is it paranoia to query anything and everything involving our government departments and shooting, or ridiculously naive to simply accept whatever information they churn out?

Perhaps if BASC in their next newsletter, asked those more than 150,000 people to contact them if they have been or know of anyone who has been a victim of attempted certificate fraud, we may have a better picture? Still nothing to compare it to a ‘surge’ of course however, as we don’t have the figure it surged from!  Just a thought. 

You did contact the NCA and had a response. Now what will you do?

[Conor O'Gorman]

10 hours ago, ehb102 said:

We're not conspiracy theorists, Conor, we're just calling you out on your lack of intellectual rigor, yet again. My concern is that BASC is being represented by you, and you are unable to cope with people who point out you are wrong or you have failed to consider another view point. And I have receipts on that last one. 

This is your first comment on this thread and it begins with a personal insult. Later in this thread you mention a tweet to NCA and I see on your twitter account that you have also been using that account to troll the Royal Legion. Charming.

[Conor O'Gorman]

8 hours ago, old'un said:

Perhaps its because its a non event, there is no surge in the fraudulent use of firearms licences.

Or to use their words….

“This year, an increasing number of fraudulent firearms documents have been used in an attempt to unlawfully acquire legally held firearms”

Pick a Number??????????

The NCA states: "This year, an increasing number of fraudulent firearms documents have been used in an attempt to unlawfully acquire legally held firearms. The National Crime Agency (NCA) need the help of firearms trade and certificate holders to prevent legal firearms being unknowingly transferred into unlawful possession and to protect the licensed firearms community from people who intend to defraud them".

No figures have been given and awareness of the NCA campaign has been raised on this forum. Here is the link again.

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms/know-your-uk-firearms-documents

Here is a video from 1 year ago.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

6 hours ago, Down South said:

Yes Connor, more than a few PW members have genuine concerns about this “increasing number of fraudulent firearms documents”, where is the evidence? If the NCA can’t/won’t releases details then it’s just smoke and Oakham. Another stick to beat shooters and shooting with. Also Connor, as a representative of “the voice of shooting”, not, I find your comment regarding PW members as “being infected by a pandemic of paranoia”, very arrogant and if this is the general attitude of BASC reps then it’s no wonder you get a grilling every time the association aligns the membership to a cause that further diminishes their perceived ideas of the security and future of shooting. BTW, I am not a BASC member and the association doe not speak for me!

One PW member has emailed the NCA and another PW member has tagged the NCA in a tweet. This is your first comment on this thread. What will you do in relation to the NCA awareness raising campaign given your concerns?

6 hours ago, clangerman said:

easily cured pack your deviously worded dig at our mods and don’t come back! 

Your first comment on this thread was  "the police are up to something". What are the 'the police' up to and what are you going to do about it?

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

One PW member has emailed the NCA and another PW member has tagged the NCA in a tweet. This is your first comment on this thread. What will you do in relation to the NCA awareness raising campaign given your concerns?

More importantly Conor, why dont YOU email the NCA and get some figures ?
Use BASCs clout to get an answer and put all these 'conspiracy theorists' ideas to bed ?

Instead you start complaining about being insulted (as usual) rather than tackle the actual problem, even after the fact YOU have initiated snarky comments and insults.
You never seem to learn....

[Scully]

28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 

You did contact the NCA and had a response. Now what will you do?

I responded with scepticism to your OP, and you suggested I contact them, remember? I did so, but it would appear that for whatever reason we aren’t privy to the information on that which they judge worthy of placing in the public domain…..but not  its source. 

What would you like me to do given that I’m one person and you are a spokesperson for ‘the voice of shooting’ with over 150,000 potential points of reference to call on? 
What would you like me to do Conor? 


 

 

[clangerman]

12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

One PW member has emailed the NCA and another PW member has tagged the NCA in a tweet. This is your first comment on this thread. What will you do in relation to the NCA awareness raising campaign given your concerns?

Your first comment on this thread was  "the police are up to something". What are the 'the police' up to and what are you going to do about it?

what’s that got to do with you insulting our mods? nothing! try another dodge to avoid drawing attention to it 

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I responded with scepticism to your OP, and you suggested I contact them, remember? I did so, but it would appear that for whatever reason we aren’t privy to the information on that which they judge worthy of placing in the public domain…..but not  its source. 

What would you like me to do given that I’m one person and you are a spokesperson for ‘the voice of shooting’ with over 150,000 potential points of reference to call on? 
What would you like me to do Conor? 
 

Maybe keep going for those figures you need - write to your MP asking them to raise your query with the Home Office. Or write to someone in the NCA such as the director general. Or perhaps move on...

4 minutes ago, clangerman said:

what’s that got to do with you insulting our mods? nothing! try another dodge to avoid drawing attention to it 

Your first comment on this thread was  "the police are up to something". What are the 'the police' up to and what are you going to do about it?

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

More importantly Conor, why dont YOU email the NCA and get some figures ?
Use BASCs clout to get an answer and put all these 'conspiracy theorists' ideas to bed ?

Instead you start complaining about being insulted (as usual) rather than tackle the actual problem, even after the fact YOU have initiated snarky comments and insults.
You never seem to learn....

What is the problem? That's paranoia talking in your head. The NCA have an awareness raising campaign and BASC has been raising awareness of that campaign. 

Here is the link again.

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms/know-your-uk-firearms-documents

[Sweet11-87]

Connor i think its unfair to just brand us all paranoid and conspiracy theorists and for the record i dont agree with personal insults at yourself but BASC as a whole need to think broader and deeper regarding these things, were all aware just how shooting is  under pressure from all angles,  how does this read to joe public people who arnt into guns and have no interest?. because it doesn't read guns and shooters are ok let them crack on, it reads, "a surge of people have just gotten guns illegally for whatever reason and unsavory people have access somewhere in the uk why don't they just ban guns or make it harder to buy them?".

for me its purely public opinion, if this is happening i 100% agree lets get all over it but without figures we have no idea of the scale or severity this is just click bait that will add another hurt to shooters and i don't think it should be spread until we know more.

Edited Monday at 20:11 by Sweet11-87

[Conor O'Gorman]

So, lots of PW members with axes to grind now getting fired up and reading this, lets get momentum going and start pushing back outside infighting to a threatened ban on driven grouse shooting. Only one PW member acted on that when it was posted.

Who amongst you that are either concerned about the NCA or point scoring or sniping will act on the WJ petition? I predict none. Prove me wrong and use your time more effectively by posting an update in the thread linked above on your lobbying actions.

 

 

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Maybe keep going for those figures you need - write to your MP asking them to raise your query with the Home Office. Or write to someone in the NCA such as the director general. Or perhaps move on...

 

Ok, will email my MP and the HO. Based on much experience of doing just that ( hand written, no email back then 🙂) when I was a BASC member though, I won’t hold out much hope of getting a straight answer other than the usual ‘stock’ letter. 
You obviously don’t intend to enquire of your membership in your next magazine ( I do still enjoy your magazine incidentally as I get them given from a mate who rejoined some years ago ) as you’ve already moved on…..so I suppose I’ll have to give it a go. 
Repeating the same statement regarding a dubious ‘surge’ via a link doesn’t make it any more convincing. 

[Konor]

A reported surge in firearm certificate fraud accepted as such but no figures to put into perspective the threat or specific cases to show the nature of the frauds committed.A call to discontinue the use of lead shot with highly emotive content designed to sway opinion but with no figures to show the extent of any detriment caused by lead shot inland away from wetlands to support such a move.

There’s a common thread here that demonstrates an inability/reluctance by representatives of BASC to act in the best interests of shooters in contravention of the declared aims of BASC.

Now that Wild Justice have had their lawyers contact the Secretary of State to have the findings of the HSE report acted upon ASAP the folly of having BASC’s representative working on their behalf by highlighting their support for further restrictions on the use of lead shot demonstrates is crystal clear.

Instead of ranting about perceived conspiracy theories would time not be better spent fighting the threats to our sport after all its what BASC representatives are being paid to do. Is there a conflict of interest being shown here between privately held views and BASC policy ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

Connor i think its unfair to just brand us all paranoid and conspiracy theorists and for the record i dont agree with personal insults at yourself but BASC as a whole need to think broader and deeper regarding these things, were all aware just how shooting is  under pressure from all angles,  how does this read to joe public people who arnt into guns and have no interest?. because it doesn't read guns and shooters are ok let them crack on, it reads, "a surge of people have just gotten guns illegally for whatever reason why don't they just ban guns or make it harder to buy them?".

for me its purely public opinion, if this is happening i 100% agree lets get all over it but without figures we have no idea of the scale or severity this is just click bait that will add another hurt to shooters and i don't think it should be spread until we know more.

If you believe that the NCA made this all up then where do you go from there? That you don't trust your own National Crime Agency? That's not a problem that I can fix for you. 

[old'un]

55 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The NCA states: "This year, an increasing number of fraudulent firearms documents have been used in an attempt to unlawfully acquire legally held firearms. The National Crime Agency (NCA) need the help of firearms trade and certificate holders to prevent legal firearms being unknowingly transferred into unlawful possession and to protect the licensed firearms community from people who intend to defraud them".

No figures have been given and awareness of the NCA campaign has been raised on this forum. Here is the link again.

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms/know-your-uk-firearms-documents

Here is a video from 1 year ago.

 

I did contact them but got what seems a bog standard reply, see below.

Dear David,

Our reference: SDR-025-012

Re: fraudulent use of firearms licenses

We write in response to your email to the National Crime Agency dated **/**/2024.

The NCA is not listed as a ‘public authority’ in Schedule 1 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, and as such is not obliged to respond to Freedom of Information requests. The NCA is also not listed as a ‘Scottish public authority’ in Schedule 1 of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.

Any information from, or relating to, the NCA is subject to an absolute exemption from disclosure by other public authorities by virtue of Section 23 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (as amended by the Crime and Courts Act 2013).

From time to time the NCA will make limited information available on its website at www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk.

While we will not respond to specific requests, we will consider written suggestions about information we may consider publishing in the future.

For more information about the Freedom of Information Act 2000, please contact the Information Commissioner’s Office or visit its website at www.ico.org.uk.

The Statutory Disclosure Team manages Data Protection requests on behalf of the NCA. If you wish to report a Data Protection concern or wish to submit a subject access request, please provide us with further details and we will be happy to take it forward.

Statutory Disclosure Team

National Crime Agency

PO Box 58345, London NW1W 9JJ

www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk

www.facebook.com/NCA

Twitter: @NCA_UK

NCA mission: Protecting the public from serious and organised crime

This information is supplied in confidence by the NCA. The NCA is not listed as a Public Authority under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Any information supplied by, or relating to, the NCA is also subject to an absolute exemption.

 It may also be subject to exemption under other UK legislation. Onward disclosure may be unlawful, for example, under data protection legislation. Requests for disclosure to the public must be referred to the NCA FOI single point of contact, by email on StatutoryDisclosureTeam@nca.gov.uk. All email sent and received by the NCA is scanned and subject to assessment. Messages sent or received by NCA staff are not private and may be the subject of lawful business monitoring. Email may be passed at any time and without notice to an appropriate branch within the NCA, on authority from the Director General or their Deputy for analysis. This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender as soon as possible.

 

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Ok, will email my MP and the HO. Based on much experience of doing just that ( hand written, no email back then 🙂) when I was a BASC member though, I won’t hold out much hope of getting a straight answer other than the usual ‘stock’ letter. 
You obviously don’t intend to enquire of your membership in your next magazine ( I do still enjoy your magazine incidentally as I get them given from a mate who rejoined some years ago ) as you’ve already moved on…..so I suppose I’ll have to give it a go. 
Repeating the same statement regarding a dubious ‘surge’ via a link doesn’t make it any more convincing. 

That's fine by me - at least you are one of the few actually acting on your concerns. And yes, I don't foresee any further communications from BASC on this, unless the NCA issues another intelligence-led alert and then I envisage we will share that.

 

[Scully]

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

So, lots of PW members with axes to grind now getting fired up and reading this, lets get momentum going and start pushing back outside infighting to a threatened ban on driven grouse shooting. Only one PW member acted on that when it was posted.

Who amongst you that are either concerned about the NCA or point scoring or sniping will act on the WJ petition? I predict none. Prove me wrong and use your time more effectively by posting an update in the thread linked above on your lobbying actions.

 

 

Would you like to start another thread rather than trying to distract from this one. 
I responded to that threat at the time, but what makes it interesting is that I also informed my syndicate via our WhatsApp group and in person, ( despite them already being aware but very silent on the issue ) which is insured by and affiliated to BASC. Despite several of that syndicate also being individual members of BASC, NOT ONE responded to that petition. The awkward gazing down at shuffling feet in the Bothy was embarrassingly annoying. Pathetic. 

Edited Monday at 20:21 by Scully

[clangerman]

24 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 

Your first comment on this thread was  "the police are up to something". What are the 'the police' up to and what are you going to do about it?

 

your usual repeat dodge isn’t going to work either! 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That's fine by me - at least you are one of the few actually acting on your concerns. And yes, I don't foresee any further communications from BASC on this, unless the NCA issues another intelligence-led alert and then I envisage we will share that.

 

You don’t know its ’intelligence led’ any more than the rest of us. 

[Sweet11-87]

13 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

If you believe that the NCA made this all up then where do you go from there? That you don't trust your own National Crime Agency? That's not a problem that I can fix for you. 

its not that i dont trust them, but when has blindly following ever been the better option to having more information?. tell me more, give me more, im a reasonable man, with information to make my own decision chances are more than likely my decision will be to follow and help.

lets not pretend the police havent also faced allot of scrutiny recently they could use the positive publicity and figures to show. 

if we had 4 of these last year and then we have 1 this year  "police have reduced firearms certificate crime by 75%"

when in reality its borderline a non issue

and to defend myself ive seen it before with knife amnesty's and firearm amnestys the images broadcast on the news are mostly kitchen knives and cheap air rifles  yeah they're knifes and firearms technically but its not pulling off the street the stuff they lead the public to belive

id honestly like to see a firearms crime statistic that had sub 12ibs air rifles removed. i bet its will highlight that kids being daft with $50 springers make up most of the coals we get dragged over.

Edited Monday at 20:31 by Sweet11-87

[old'un]

10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That's fine by me - at least you are one of the few actually acting on your concerns. And yes, I don't foresee any further communications from BASC on this, unless the NCA issues another intelligence-led alert and then I envisage we will share that.

 

lets face it Conor you (BASC) are just as much in the dark as we are....but BASC is in the position to contact its members and ask how many have been effected by this fraudulent use of firearms licences.

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Would you like to start another thread rather than trying to distract from this one. 
I responded to that threat at the time, but what makes it interesting is that I also informed my syndicate via our WhatsApp group and in person, ( despite them already being aware but very silent on the issue ) which is insured by and affiliated to BASC. Despite several of that syndicate also being individual members of BASC, NOT ONE responded to that petition. The awkward gazing down at shuffling feet in the Bothy was embarrassingly annoying. Pathetic. 

Yes, there is already a thread on the grouse shooting petition, I am merely pointing to it, and what is interesting in this thread about the NCA is some enthusiasm from a number of PW members to suddenly have their say - yet the same ones are silent when push comes to shove.

11 minutes ago, clangerman said:

your usual repeat dodge isn’t going to work either! 

Actually you are dodging the questions as usual. Your first comment on this thread was  "the police are up to something". What are the 'the police' up to and what are you going to do about it?

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

You don’t know its ’intelligence led’ any more than the rest of us. 

True, I trust what the NCA stated. Why do you not trust the NCA? What gave you reason to mistrust the NCA?

[Conor O'Gorman]

11 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

its not that i dont trust them, but when has blindly following ever been the better option to having more information?. tell me more, give me more, im a reasonable man, with information to make my own decision chances are more than likely my decision will be to follow and help.

lets not pretend the police have also faced allot of scrutiny recently they could use the positive publicity and figures to show. 

if we had 4 of these last year and then we have 1 this year  "police have reduced firearms certificate crime by 75%"

The NCA is not publishing figures on this. Maybe just trust NCA because BASC is trusting them? This is the zone where paranoia creeps in, and has crept in on this forum across myriad topics. 

[ehb102]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

This is your first comment on this thread and it begins with a personal insult. Later in this thread you mention a tweet to NCA and I see on your twitter account that you have also been using that account to troll the Royal Legion. Charming.

The fact that you consider protecting the rights of women and gay people trolling is pretty disturbing - but not surprising given your track record of promoting gender ideology over our legal sex based rights. More fuzzy thinking on your part.