Advice for best approach for new shooter 12vs20

[Fellside]

On 14/02/2025 at 16:44, LondonLuke said:

Hi all

After some thoughts on something I cant work out.

I would quite like to get my wife into clay pigeon shooting (may end up regretting this...) but I can't figure out the best way to have the best first experience.

I know she would prefer it to be casual start under my guidance (god help her) but which is better

Take standard 12 gauge, going to kick a bit and probably not fit well, but gives a fair chance of hitting something
OR
Get my hands on a 20 bore which is probably more comfortable but my understanding is that it will be a smaller pattern so less easy to hit a clay.

I've never shot 20 bore so I can't really work out what the best idea - no good your first go ending up with cheek slap and a sore shoulder and no good hitting nothing either!

I have been through the same dilemma for my 14 year old son. It’s not really a question of 20 or 12 - but how much they weigh relative to cartridge load and velocity. There is no escaping the laws of physics and recoil. There are essentially two options. 1. A 12 bore sporter typically weighing about 8 lbs with a light standard velocity cartridge (say 24 gram).  2. A heavyish 6 3/4 lb or more 20 bore with 21 gram standard velocity loads. Both will have roughly the same recoil in ft/lb energy. However the 20 bore option usually ends up being easier to handle for a person of lighter stature. Beware the typical light Italian 20 bore which may weigh as little as 5 3/4 lb. They will kick even with light 21 gram loads. They are game guns really and not ideal for high volume shooting. If you’re really interested in accurate recoil energy re gun weight / shot weight / velocity etc there are shotgun recoil calculators available online. Long story short, I ended up buying my son a heavy (ish) 20 bore and he’s doing really well with Hull pro 20 in 21 gram loads. The gun is more manoeuvrable for him than a 12 bore sporter. The only time he notices recoil is when he occasionally mounts the gun wrongly. Otherwise all fine. Hope that helps. Good luck. 

PS The other option is a gas operated semi…….? Some are very soft shooting. However, most people want beginners to shoot a double because of easy operating and safety.  

[Fellside]

I have just noticed HantsRob’s post. I shouldn’t write my replies in a rush..?! That’s a very kind offer. I would take him up on it. The advice about trying second hand or ‘demo’ guns is spot on. Don’t forget to try a heavier 20 bore though. A good example is the Browning 525 - just a thought. 

[HantsRob]

39 minutes ago, Fellside said:

The gun is more manoeuvrable for him than a 12 bore sporter. 

PS The other option is a gas operated semi…….? Some are very soft shooting. However, most people want beginners to shoot a double because of easy operating and safety.  

Well I think you raise 2 really great points! I lighter gun is whippier, or more manageable for someone smaller/slender. For the more.... rubust.... the weight may actually feel better, and then also slowing someone down can be a positive in some situations.

With gas, comes more cleaning! I took my "new" A303 out this weekend, and it shot some 24g carts beautifully, but struggled with a 28g Gamebore cart. The math isn't as simple as 28g is better than 24!

 

Nothing looks as awkward as a new shooter trying to load a semi on a stand! Best for low recoil, harder to master. But, it may be a route into the market. A well known female shooter at Barbury went from 20 gauge, to 12 gauge, to semi (A400), and is now back on a Beretta 694. I don't think it's the right gun for her as she's teeny, but she seems happy and that's all that matters! 

[Fellside]

I have used a ‘gas pipe’ on many occasions, but personally just can’t get away with them. Even if I can get one to fit perfectly, I can’t hit a barn door. Strange. They just aren’t for me. I think for the OP, his partner’s best option (as I think you mentioned) is to embark upon a ‘try before you buy’ quest. Even as a novice, something will stand out as feeling better than the rest and break a few more. 

[LondonLuke]

2 hours ago, HantsRob said:

SImilar to Dan, I let a slender female use my 20 gauge with a lighter load, and it kicked her far harder than a 12 gauge with a light load did.

Gunmount - don't underestimate face/cheek slap and impact on the shoulder if it isn't mounted right
Cartridge - I'd definitely go 21g in a 12 gauge and NOT 24g. I'd rather they "only" hit 50% and loved it, than hitting 60% and getting a hard kick
Stands - choose the newbie stands. There is no reason to miss an easy bird with a 21g in a 12, or something less in a 20
"Have a go" stands - plenty of places that let you have a go, but someone qualified should help
Ladies guns - guns like the Vittoria are great for ladies. But, you need to try what you can!

I am in North West Hampshire, I often travel to go to a nice ground. There are a few that may suit you if you're happy to do a bit of travelling, but it depends if a Monday and Tuesday is essential? 

Wallers Ash
Popham
Stockbridge
Lains
Bisley Long Siberia
Petersfield

Some of them are a saturday or sunday only, and I have deliberately left a few out that I do not like. 

If you ever wanted to travel to Hampshire I'd happily take you both out with a "normal" 12 gauge, a 20 gauge silver pigeon, and a Benelli M2. Then you can try them all.

Finally, don't underestimate the holistic side! Somewhere like Barbury (near Swindon) has a really great gun shop where they will let you borrow a second hand gun if you're interested in buying, has an amazing selection of targets, great food and coffee, and overall very friendly. It's one of my go-to's!
Somewhere like Purbeck has amazing woodland targets in their forest, but their gun selection is poor, but with friends is an amazing day out.

Wow - thank you - that really is kind and super informative too. Also good idea to go somewhere like Barbury where you can make a day of it and make a choice amongst more options. I will PM you when we get some ideas on when but most likely a Friday morning if at all possible.

Really good info on both the load/gun combo and there is probably a sweet spot with each it is just working out what it is to tailor to the person.

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I have been through the same dilemma for my 14 year old son. It’s not really a question of 20 or 12 - but how much they weigh relative to cartridge load and velocity. There is no escaping the laws of physics and recoil. There are essentially two options. 1. A 12 bore sporter typically weighing about 8 lbs with a light standard velocity cartridge (say 24 gram).  2. A heavyish 6 3/4 lb or more 20 bore with 21 gram standard velocity loads. Both will have roughly the same recoil in ft/lb energy. However the 20 bore option usually ends up being easier to handle for a person of lighter stature. Beware the typical light Italian 20 bore which may weigh as little as 5 3/4 lb. They will kick even with light 21 gram loads. They are game guns really and not ideal for high volume shooting. If you’re really interested in accurate recoil energy re gun weight / shot weight / velocity etc there are shotgun recoil calculators available online. Long story short, I ended up buying my son a heavy (ish) 20 bore and he’s doing really well with Hull pro 20 in 21 gram loads. The gun is more manoeuvrable for him than a 12 bore sporter. The only time he notices recoil is when he occasionally mounts the gun wrongly. Otherwise all fine. Hope that helps. Good luck. 

PS The other option is a gas operated semi…….? Some are very soft shooting. However, most people want beginners to shoot a double because of easy operating and safety.  

Thank you - this forum really is ace - not been active as much on here in last few years but I have come back and been treated like royalty with all this amazing advice. I'm cautious on the semi - feel like they have an extra step in complication but certainly worth considering as enjoying it should be the main part after all!

[HantsRob]

22 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I have used a ‘gas pipe’ on many occasions, but personally just can’t get away with them. Even if I can get one to fit perfectly, I can’t hit a barn door. Strange. They just aren’t for me. I think for the OP, his partner’s best option (as I think you mentioned) is to embark upon a ‘try before you buy’ quest. Even as a novice, something will stand out as feeling better than the rest and break a few more. 

I shoot the A303 far better than my M2. Just fit and style.

I don't like the 525 but shoot it better than the pigeon that I kept. Goes to show what you like isn't necessarily what you shoot best with!

[Fellside]

Just now, HantsRob said:

I shoot the A303 far better than my M2. Just fit and style.

I don't like the 525 but shoot it better than the pigeon that I kept. Goes to show what you like isn't necessarily what you shoot best with!

Indeed. I have got rid of a few hitters in my time. I have one now and keep telling myself: do not part ex….! …. 🙂 

[HantsRob]

13 minutes ago, LondonLuke said:

Also good idea to go somewhere like Barbury where you can make a day of it and make a choice amongst more options. I will PM you when we get some ideas on when but most likely a Friday morning if at all possible.

Really good info on both the load/gun combo and there is probably a sweet spot with each it is just working out what it is to tailor to the person.

Thank you - this forum really is ace - not been active as much on here in last few years but I have come back and been treated like royalty with all this amazing advice. I'm cautious on the semi - feel like they have an extra step in complication but certainly worth considering as enjoying it should be the main part after all!

I'd suggest that a gun you just love and feels right and is mostly well fitting is more important for a new shooter, as their mount will be so inconsistent to start. Time on the clays and practice will make you find out what your second gun will be.

I can take time off work for a friday tickle on the clays. 

Once you shoot more, you'll naturally be able to go up in load as your mount becomes consistent.

Finally, nothing to be cautious with specifically with a semi. Try mine, and you'll see whilst it's a few extra steps, it really is just another nice tool that has a different function. I rarely shoot mine, but I do enjoy it for fun!

18 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Indeed. I have got rid of a few hitters in my time. I have one now and keep telling myself: do not part ex….! …. 🙂 

I sold my first 12g pigeon and regret it!

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, If you were closer you could try out my 12 and 20 , The 20 has a 14 inch LOP so i can use a stretch on 1/4 pad , 

[LondonLuke]

3 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I'd suggest that a gun you just love and feels right and is mostly well fitting is more important for a new shooter, as their mount will be so inconsistent to start. Time on the clays and practice will make you find out what your second gun will be.

I can take time off work for a friday tickle on the clays. 

Once you shoot more, you'll naturally be able to go up in load as your mount becomes consistent.

Finally, nothing to be cautious with specifically with a semi. Try mine, and you'll see whilst it's a few extra steps, it really is just another nice tool that has a different function. I rarely shoot mine, but I do enjoy it for fun!

I sold my first 12g pigeon and regret it!

Seems wise words all round.

I had a semi and did like it but just wasnt using it - now wish I had kept it for her to try!

Thank you for the kind offers

3 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I'd suggest that a gun you just love and feels right and is mostly well fitting is more important for a new shooter, as their mount will be so inconsistent to start. Time on the clays and practice will make you find out what your second gun will be.

I can take time off work for a friday tickle on the clays. 

Once you shoot more, you'll naturally be able to go up in load as your mount becomes consistent.

Finally, nothing to be cautious with specifically with a semi. Try mine, and you'll see whilst it's a few extra steps, it really is just another nice tool that has a different function. I rarely shoot mine, but I do enjoy it for fun!

I sold my first 12g pigeon and regret it!

Seems wise words all round.

I had a semi and did like it but just wasnt using it - now wish I had kept it for her to try!

Thank you for the kind offers

[LondonLuke]

Funnily enough it was @bakerboy from here that first offered to take me out (providing all the gear/carts etc for free) when I joined the forum in 2012 and got me into it. Roll forward 13 years and there are still kind members offering to do the same for my wife!

[Westley]

Please do NOT dismiss the auto because of the negative comments. They are no more dangerous than any other gun, I have used one for first time shooters for over 40 years. A lot of those shooters were Female, and now shoot semi autos of their own, quite safely. A lightweight 12 bore game gun is a similar weight to a 20 bore 'Sporter'. The fit of the gun is of more importance than its weight. 5 minutes a day lifting the gun into her shoulder, will develop muscles that she did not know she had. It is money well spent, by her having a few lessons, including gun suitability. 

[Scully]

I’d disregard the bore to be honest and just find a gun you enjoy shooting, and as the above post states, I wouldn’t overlook an auto. 
All you have to remember with an auto is to be as safe with it as you would with any other gun, namely keep that muzzle pointing in a safe place and finger off the trigger til you’re ready to shoot. 

[Bobba]

On 17/02/2025 at 10:01, HantsRob said:

Finally, don't underestimate the holistic side! Somewhere like Barbury (near Swindon) has a really great gun shop where they will let you borrow a second hand gun if you're interested in buying, has an amazing selection of targets, great food and coffee, and overall very friendly. It's one of my go-to's!

A vote here for Barbury Castle Shooting Ground which I have visited a number of times.

Over Xmas my 21 yr old grandson asked me to take him shooting before he went back to Uni. For a number of reasons  I said No. (nothing to shoot, sitting in a field watching the grass grow, I’m not a skilled tutor etc). I said I would treat him to a 1 hr coaching session at Barbury.

He was not disappointed and enjoyed the day immensley. The coach (Connor) was very professional in his briefing  and coaching and took grandson successfully through the coaching stands. So much so that after burger and chips and a walk around their gun room we shot at another 50 clays each.

And a rewarding grandads day for me.