letter to David basc

[kdubya]

just wanted to see if David would undertake to sort out the absolute confusion OFFICIALLY by interaction with the police, the complete shambles and lack of consistency re issue of .17hmr for fox?

today I had the feo round re my renewal, and asked him if my local force had changed their stance on suitability of the .17 hmr and fox?

 

I asked the question as I was refused this condition on my ticket, yet one of the lads I regularly shoot with was granted it not long afterwards? anyway the feo said I will ask the question and get back to you! which he duly did! unfortunately he said NO you cannot have it on your ticket, you can only use your .243 and your mates fox for hmr was a "mistake" and that he has been contacted informing him of the same, so all I did by asking the question was drop my mate in the brown stuff

 

Now looking at this and other forums, it seems that hmr and fox is dependent upon which force issues your license, this is acceptable I think NOT.and that some class fox as vermin etc.

 

We as shooters who abide to the law, need uniformity and not depend on the whim of any particular force, this also goes for those who want DSC certs before granting deer conditions, those forces who want mentors prior to the issue of a center fire, those who want permissions in writing etc etc, it is high time that we through our representative medium BASC, where given clear unambiguous rulings that apply to all.

 

ps yes I am a paid up member of basc but used this forum so all could see the total ******** the present system is.

 

cheers KW

[henry d]

Hear hear, nice one KW, it is about time that it was sorted, however it should be sorted so that everyone is at the same standard and that should be IMHO no mentoring and if one force has fox for HMR the all should.

 

**Edit** I should have said that it may be better to ask David to pass our concerns on to the correct person in the BASC heirarchy.

Edited June 24, 2008 by henry d

[Baldrick]

Someone mentioned recently the theory of having a centralised firearms licensing agency, where there was a centralised policy on firearms use. It would reduce the totally inconsistent licensing policies between constabularies.

[codling99]

the problem seems to be that it s down to the cheif of police at what ever head quaters your under .so obviously every force got a different cheif,so different veiws and approach to licensing.must agree though ,should be some sort of uniformity in all decisions. i been waiting for 3 and half weeks to have ticket opened,rang today,and they said ,someone will be out to speak to me in next few days heard of others getting ticket opened on application first time. dont think it ll ever change.

[kdubya]

the problem seems to be that it s down to the cheif of police at what ever head quaters your under .so obviously every force got a different cheif,so different veiws and approach to licensing.must agree though ,should be some sort of uniformity in all decisions. i been waiting for 3 and half weeks to have ticket opened,rang today,and they said ,someone will be out to speak to me in next few days heard of others getting ticket opened on application first time. dont think it ll ever change.

 

 

it certainly wont change if we roll over and accept it! like it or not each force works to the same home office guidelines, they should be made to honour them not chose their own invidious interpretation, and before we cry they are only guidelines, try working outside "guidelines" say at work and kill someone, then see if the beak says its OK they where only guidelines, never mind old chap accidents happen!!

cheers KW

[palombier]

Kd

One of the problems is that the 'Guidance' hasn't been updated since 2002 when it was first published and no mention is made of 17HMR in the original publication as it predates the introduction of this calibre. Additionally with the recent popularity of deerstalking and rifle shooting many more 'novices'are applying for centrefire rifles now and as the Home Office book doesn't offer much help on issuing complete beginners firearm certificates forces issue their own conditions. Sometimes with controversial topics such as the HMR one the Association of Chief Police Officers issue their own guidelines to forces but I'm not sure in this instance if they have done so and it might be worth asking your FEO. In the absence of any direction Police Forces will interpret matters themselves hence the disparity and unless legislation changes it will still be down to the Chief Officer of Police. And if you were wondering what are the chances of legislation change remember that in 2004 the Home Office had a huge public consultation about just this subject and we have heard nothing since.

 

Regards

 

P

[kdubya]

if you go back to my origional post you will see that I asked the feo if their stance re the hmr had changed, and he replied he did not know? but we disscussed the fact that the hmr was not on the guidelines and its capabilities, speed, frangibility etc, but regardless if they aint on my forces guidelines they aint on ANY other forces guidelines they CANT make their own

so as said why the inconsistency?

cheers KW

[hawkeye]

Been down to London for the weekend to my grandsons naming day....

Driving home today got a call from the head of our firearms licensing office to tell me that there was a problem with my ticket and when i asked what the problem was told we gave you FOX on your .17HMR and it was a mistake..should be vermin only..

 

I told her no problem i usually use my 223 and would only use the HMR if i was out rabbit shooting and a fox appeared at close range then i would shoot it.....

Was told that wasn't a problem but as my ticket is due for renewal in OCT this year not bothering to send for alteration..

 

Then i got a call from KDUBYA ( you pillock ) tonight quite upset to tell me he had inadvertently dropped me in it hence the call from the firearms dept..

Doesn't matter mate just have to carry both guns in future.... :yes:

Edited June 23, 2008 by hawkeye

[DaveK]

Mike, you're too soft.

 

I'd have made him do bum love with a grizzly first

[starlight32]

but think about it chaps- If the .17 was universally acceptable for foxing, unless you have a deer condition a lot of people woudld trouble having a centre fire caliber would'nt they?

 

I would drop the debate before someone decides it is ok for the this use because everyone would be moaning about having to use it all the time then would'nt they?

 

The police would be happier giving a lesser caliber everytime at the end of the day.....

[markbivvy]

would be nice K if we could get them all singing out of the same book.

but looking at it country wide the basc must make a good few bob out of each county's interpretation.

[tulkyuk]

And no reply from David as yet - Basc leaving us high and dry again?

[Blackbart]

One thing that puzzles me is why some forces define a fox as "vermin"and another force can just decide that it isnt !Surely as a matter of FACT it either is or isnt.You cant just decide for yourself whether it is or isnt to suite your way of thinking.

(OK that sounds like gobbledygook but i am sure you know what i mean)

[Poacher]

And no reply from David as yet - Basc leaving us high and dry again?

 

Stand easy, its the local constabularies inconsistancy not BASC

[David BASC]

Guys,

 

See Mark has again hijacked a BASC thread to make another unfounded accusation about us making money out this confusion perhaps he can provide me with his evidence, if not Mark them do not bother posting any more accusations OK.!

 

TT give me a chance mate I have been in a web site development meeting all day – just because you have time to access the site why do you automatically assume that because I have not posted you accuse me / BASC of leaving shooters high and dry why do you do this for goodness sake? It beggars belief it really does. Do you think this post of yours did anything to help the initial enquiry or add anything positive to the debate- no, I don’t think so either so give it a rest please I am getting a bit tired of this childish sniping.

 

There is a lack of consistency within the FLO’s I know, this takes up a considerable amount of our firearms dept time, and yes it would be easier for everyone if there was consistency.

 

Anyway back to the facts.

 

The police will refer typically to the Home Office guidance on firearms (2002), and in particular page 77 (a copy is on the BASC web site) which give a guide for ‘good reason’ for various calibers. It became apparent, with the increase in popularity of the .17 for fox control, that some FLO’s were using P77 of the guide as the definitive! No surprise there. After working with the police BASC produced our own additional guidance, (energy comparisons) looking at the energy of the bullet rather than just the caliber – this has been circulated to the FLO’s and a copy is on the BASC site.

 

If you want to see them go to www.basc.org.uk/content/certificate_application_f

 

We work constantly with the police trying to make them see sense, I guess it is easier sometimes than others!

 

If this does not answer your question fully then please let me know.

 

In the future if you want to post an open letter, that is absolutely fine by me I think it is a great idea, but please PM me to let me know it is up- as I may not always be able to get on the site every day.

 

Best wishes

David

[markbivvy]

See Mark has again hijacked a BASC thread to make another unfounded accusation about us making money out this confusion perhaps he can provide me with his evidence, if not Mark them do not bother posting any more accusations OK.!

 

give it a rest dave, every time you come on here you accuse someone of hijacking basc threads.

 

then go on the guntrader site and see mike eveleigh reply to every thread that starts

" I am thinking of applying for a shooting permit"

I think it called touting or spaming.

[henry d]

Thanks for the reply David, the table is an eye opener !

[markbivvy]

trouble is though it not just the hmr that causes problems.

223 for vermin is another one, 243 for deer and fox, open tickets,mentors.etc etc.

the whole fac application procedure is a mess.

[Dunkield]

Standardisation would mean that some people would gain and others would lose out.

I am happy with the decisions my FEO's make, if had the same restrictions put on me that some on here talk about due to standardisation I would not be happy

[jonno 357]

Happy with my FLO and do have 17hmr for fox

 

Jonno

[kdubya]

David I am well versed with the home office guidelines, the problem is they do not acknowledge the .17 hmr, all I am asking

is can the basc as a "representative" and hopefully a respected one at that, push to have the hmr .17 included in the guidelines? surely this is not a task akin to parting the red sea? almost seemingly daily we see in shooting forums the same question being asked, ie can I shoot fox with my hmr? 60% will say no the rest say yes I have it, christ some even have .22 lr and fox and that is AGAINST the guidelines, never mind being in a grey area?

 

I am not trying to stir the pot I am trying to get common sense and uniformity across the board, and as stated that should also go for the back door qualifications re the bigger caliber's, mentors, dsc1 etc,before grants! as again where are these in the guidelines we are ALL supposed to be working to and with.

 

finally as long as we accept as a norm and consider individous interpretation acceptable by the CC's then we will watch our sports and legal rights decay until the point that a pulse is no longer felt?

 

Thanks KW

[magman]

If you where handing out the fac would you be happy to add .17 hmr or fox ?

 

please think before answering

 

Yes it will do it but will it allow for mistakes as a centerfire will , No

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

If you where handing out the fac would you be happy to add .17 hmr or fox ?

 

please think before answering

 

Yes it will do it but will it allow for mistakes as a centerfire will , No

 

I agree with Magman on this, and for all those who shoot foxes with hmr's then I would say that 'at close range' the hmr will do the job in the right hands.

 

The problem is of course that if the hmr has general approval for foxes then there are some that will see a fox at well over 150 yards and have a go....

 

The last thing that we want is for a fox with a large hole blown into it to stagger into sight of Joe Public in a very public place.

 

There are probably more foxes shot in the UK with 0.22 rimmy's than anything else, and in the right hands they will do the job. BUT, there are lots of foxes out there that have been shot and wounded with rimmy's at extended ranges and lived to tell the tale, or died slowly and painfully. The latter cannot be right.

 

Specific fox rounds (such as the 0.22 centrefires etc) are designed to have a huge excess of energy at 200 yards to kill a fox with a degree of bullet placement error. The hmr will not do this - mashing a rabbits head at 100 yards is not the same as 'having a go' at a fox at 180 yards. The bullet weight is far too light relative to the velocity to consistently do the job at these ranges.

 

Don

[David BASC]

Yep we do and will continue to will push for consistency, but I think some FLO’s have the same view that some of you do on the efficacy of some 17’s do achieve a clean kill

 

David

[kdubya]

Go on then I will bite? who is the guy with the RIGHT HANDS or is that some elitist stance, to infer shooting prowess

or are you advocating a test (overseen by dubious chief constables of course)

 

By asking for consistency, I accept it could go either way,I have never demanded that it be put as "suitable" on the list, just thats it is acknowledged as an individous round? and at long last put on the bloody list, again all I am asking is WHY we accept different viewpoints, and wish that BASC keep/ start? whatever, lobbying for this

 

and again what is the stance re backdoor qualification for the bigger caliber's.I am fortunate that I have all the firepower I realisticly need up to .243 and on a fully open ticket, but others dont and some forces want hoop jumping to be performed first

 

KW