al4x Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 the unions have a lot to answer as said and have wrecked many of the UK's industries because the industry hasn't been able to streamline and modernise to cope with foreign competition. Like MC I employ foreign workers and enjoy doing so because they are willing to work, they do what they are told and don't argue back all the time. In the end I pay them the same as UK workers and actually have started employing them in front of people I know will just cause me agro and want to work 9.30 till 5 and earm 2.5K a month in an unskilled job. Look at our railway network the reason that will never work is entirely due to the unions, and the way they are going they will **** our entire country up. If we start only letting UK companies go for our tenders then what are other countries going to do, other than tell us to go forth and multiply as far as their tenders are concerned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinea Fowl Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Well said MC. I see and understand the argument on both sides, But it`s not about this or that industry anymore, it`s about the whole country. Things is getting harder for us normal folk, when these guy`s on strike like that, they will make it a lot harder for all of us. They should just keep that in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Martin, The construction industry do not have any structured unions am I correct? And as for those who have had there life disrupted by not being able to hop on the train once out of 365 days in a year then so be it. And for those that have had there letter delayed by a day due to postal dispute then hard luck. But let me tell you this Martin..... You walk on a new build site as a joiner and if there are no messing or washing facilties then its hard luck. Work alongside engineering trades who are protected by a working union agreement and I will bet you pound to dollar that we will be on a lot more money than you...... I see it every day...... building trades hourly rates fall way short of Engineering rates full stop. If you don't believe me then look it up. And why is that? Because you have never had a union to ensure adequate correct pay and conditions. You walk on a site and all the building trades are on a miss mash of day rates,no overtime no lodge or fares and generally take it all leave it scenario. At least when I walk on a job I know what I am getting where-ever I go and get all that I am due with no arguments. Back in the recession while all the building trades were scrabbing about gettin paid whatever the employers could get away with on a supply and demand basis the engineering workforce still recieved inflation based rises across the board. In times of recession I know what I would rather be protected by. Pay agreement or the goverment. Pay Agreement for me everytime........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 tell you what those, who lambast trade unions, have no idea whatsoever what life would be like without them, buts lets just say they would be so busy trying to provide, whinging would be way down the list? good look to those who seek to protect british industry and jobs, because if they dont the mumbling jock and his bent crew wont, and as for that old crow thatcher, she caused more damage to british industry than the the luftwaffe. cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Rob, I have no idea if the construction industry has any unions, I have no interest in unions or what they stand for. You are right, engineering probably does pay better than the average joiner, which is why I bettered myself and retrained. I now get paid very well thank you. I would doubt very much you are on much more than I am but if you are then you have even less to strike about. I have not been on a site recently that has not had excellent welfare facilities, drying rooms canteens and the like. This does not worry me in any aspect I do not expect it and do I go out on strike if I don't get it. I go and do the job I am paid to do and move on to the next. The Building trade does have working agreements and pay structures but to be honest I have only worked for one company that abided by them. All of the others pay well above the guidelines and the benefits are much better as well. I am a firm believer in paying people what they are worth and getting paid what I am worth. Suppose the pay agreement fell short of government guidelines? what would you and the unions do then? Strike or be the biggest set of turncoats ever? Edited February 3, 2009 by MC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 And as for those who have had there life disrupted by not being able to hop on the train once out of 365 days in a year then so be it. And for those that have had there letter delayed by a day due to postal dispute then hard luck. Life must seem very simple standing round the oil drum brazier. Perhaps I don't care about strikers generally is because they hold me to ransom to suit their purposes? I can't affect their wage claim, but their strike stops me working, so I wish them ill. Hard luck, I think is the phrase... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Rob, I have no idea if the construction industry has any unions, I have no interest in unions or what they stand for. You are right, engineering probably does pay better than the average joiner, which is why I bettered myself and retrained. I now get paid very well thank you. I would doubt very much you are on much more than I am but if you are then you have even less to strike about. I have not been on a site recently that has not had excellent welfare facilities, drying rooms canteens and the like. This does not worry me in any aspect I do not expect it and do I go out on strike if I don't get it. I go and do the job I am paid to do and move on to the next. The Building trade does have working agreements and pay structures but to be honest I have only worked for one company that abided by them. All of the others pay well above the guidelines and the benefits are much better as well. I am a firm believer in paying people what they are worth and getting paid what I am worth. Suppose the pay agreement fell short of government guidelines? what would you and the unions do then? Strike or be the biggest set of turncoats ever? In the 20 years of existed negotiated site agreements they have always been between 14% & 20% ahead of goverment recommendation for area. Trouble is for most in this industry and many more enough is never enough....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) And that is the biggest issue with the unions, it is never enough. If they get an offer of 3% as a payrise they want 5% if they don't get their own way they stamp they feet and call their members out on strike. The reaction of the employing company is then **** you I'll employ foreign workers who won't strike and who will do the job I ask them to. And then we begin the vicious circle again. As I said earlier, go to work and do the job you are paid to do. End of story. If you do that you will be paid what you are worth. Whether you are a cleaner or rocket scientist you will be paid what you are worth and if all you do is cause aggro and go on strike at the drop of a hat then you are not worth much. I would like to bet that the peole who are up the ladder and still employed within the mining industry are the "SCABS" who crossed the picket lines and got on with their jobs. Edited February 3, 2009 by MC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 In the 20 years of existed negotiated site agreements they have always been between 14% & 20% ahead of goverment recommendation for area. And high labour rates are the major reason why most of our manufactures now come from abroad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think before we all go any further we should prehaps look at the origins of the trade unions in the 1920's and exactly what they set out to provide for the British worker. As mentioned earlier and quite rightly so by Kyduya, if there had never been an origin of union solidarity starting with the general strike then whole of this country would be still be a class system where the working class would be committed to a life of serfdom...... Does anyone know the origins of the general strike in the 20's? Well let me tell you..... It was a proposal by employers to increase working hours and decrease pay? With the backing of goverment. So how would everyone like that for a starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 tell you what those, who lambast trade unions, have no idea whatsoever what life would be like without them, buts lets just say they would be so busy trying to provide, whinging would be way down the list? good look to those who seek to protect british industry and jobs, because if they dont the mumbling jock and his bent crew wont, and as for that old crow thatcher, she caused more damage to british industry than the the luftwaffe. cheers KW How wrong you are, I have never supported a union, I never will I do not agree with what they stand for. If I have an issue at work I go and speak to my boss. If he has a problem with me he will come and speak to me. It is civilised and it works. I did not get a bonus last year as the company decided to keep the money as a "WAR CHEST" should they need to ride the storm. If this is not needed it will be paid out to all of us. Did we strike? should we have done? No of course we shouldn't. I would rather have a job in a years time rather than a few quid in my pocket now. If the energy company TOTAL isn't it?, suddenly decided to build their power plant in italy as it is causing to much grief in this country then the unions and their followers will really have shot themselves in the foot won't they. Do you union supporters still believe that we as a nation would still be working in a victorian era if we never had unions? Get Real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Does anyone know the origins of the general strike in the 20's? Well let me tell you..... It was a proposal by employers to increase working hours and decrease pay? With the backing of goverment. and what was the outcome of the general strike? Lower pay and longer hours - so it was an exercise in futility The employer's were reacting to world market forces - and you cannot buck the market. Has any strike resulted in the long-term improvement of an industry? Not in my recollection Weak management may back down in the short term - (Fleet Street newspapers is one that comes to mind), but in the end the economics of the business will determine whether it succeeds or fails, and good management is about keeping the numbers right - because if they don't, the competition will. Edited February 3, 2009 by amateur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 and the competition will be foreign. As a manufacturing country we've had it because of regulation and forcing up employment costs and reducing hours, much of which can be laid at the unions door Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 How wrong you are, I have never supported a union, I never will I do not agree with what they stand for. If I have an issue at work I go and speak to my boss. If he has a problem with me he will come and speak to me. It is civilised and it works. I did not get a bonus last year as the company decided to keep the money as a "WAR CHEST" should they need to ride the storm. If this is not needed it will be paid out to all of us. Did we strike? should we have done? No of course we shouldn't. I would rather have a job in a years time rather than a few quid in my pocket now. If the energy company TOTAL isn't it?, suddenly decided to build their power plant in italy as it is causing to much grief in this country then the unions and their followers will really have shot themselves in the foot won't they. Do you union supporters still believe that we as a nation would still be working in a victorian era if we never had unions? Get Real! no I'm not , simple as and end of enjoy your smug life mate selfishness is a particularly insidious trait cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyfox Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 You dont see the Soldiers go on strike because they think they not getting paid enough Im sure most jobs today are contracts you put your signature on it why complain about pay later on? Im all for British jobs for British people but unions take the **** sometimes Am I right in saying that the Labour party was set-up by unions? Nice to see they looking after there own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 At what point am I being selfish? Or is that just the first thing an uneducated geordie could think of? You stick to supporting the unions and lining the pockets of their leaders. I in the meantime will carry on working and earning money so I can enjoy my life. You can call me many things but selfish certainly isn't one of them. Smug? How do you work that one out? Oh no hold on 2 + 2 =7 doesn't it? If you mean that I have worked hard, put myself through expensive training to get to a job that pays well and I work for a company that looks after me because I work hard for them. If that is the definition of smug then OK Guilty as charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 You dont see the Soldiers go on strike because they think they not getting paid enough Im sure most jobs today are contracts you put your signature on it why complain about pay later on? Im all for British jobs for British people but unions take the **** sometimes Am I right in saying that the Labour party was set-up by unions? Nice to see they looking after there own. Quite right DF, No one seemed to mind the foreign workers during WW11 did they? The Ghurkas or the poles were OK then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I've never liked the blackmailers oops I mean the unions. It surely can't be difficult to accept that it's very expensive to do business in the UK, we have priced out most businesses that were able to do it elsewhere. I rather suspect the high cost of living in the UK is largely down to unrealistic wage demands and restrictive practices over the years. As wages increased for those who were able to bully their employers so the wages of others had to rise to be able to afford the ever increasing cost of the products. Over simplistic perhaps - but the words vicious circle spring to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I've never liked the blackmailers oops I mean the unions. It surely can't be difficult to accept that it's very expensive to do business in the UK, we have priced out most businesses that were able to do it elsewhere. I rather suspect the high cost of living in the UK is largely down to unrealistic wage demands and restrictive practices over the years. As wages increased for those who were able to bully their employers so the wages of others had to rise to be able to afford the ever increasing cost of the products. Over simplistic perhaps - but the words vicious circle spring to mind. Yeah your right without trade unions the country would have prospered far better, and the caring and compassionate employers would have been more than willing to ensure that the oiks would be well cared for, dream on dream on. Blackmailers christ you really do have NO idea what you are talking about, still to some ignorance IS a blessing and some on here are very blessed indeed. Now if you want a crusade try lambasting the self employed who declare their income as next to nowt in order to avoid paying a proportionate tax. cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Christ alive you really should try selling that chip that is on your shoulder. They could probably build a new motorway with it. So after losing the arguement(Sorry debate) over foreign workers you decide to attack the self employed. Lets try and get this to sink in, THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING. YOU HAVE TO GO AND WORK FOR IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Christ alive you really should try selling that chip that is on your shoulder. They could probably build a new motorway with it. So after losing the arguement(Sorry debate) over foreign workers you decide to attack the self employed. Lets try and get this to sink in, THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING. YOU HAVE TO GO AND WORK FOR IT. Sunshine, I have worked EVERY day possible since July 1967, I have worked for my present company for 34 years,I have never scrounged claimed a penny or whatever, but I support 100% those who genuinely strive for work,and I have a standard of living that I WORKED for,however I saw that **** thatcher close industries,industries that with a little subsidy could have survived ( hmm banks must be different) then welcome foreign companies with open arms, whilst said companies received "incentives of millions" on the promise of the jobs that for some reason NEVER came I pay 40% tax month in month out, The world does not owe me a living I have worked for it, unfortunately when you were about 10 I saw villages destroyed by caring companies and govt's,yet the same govt welcoming a product subsidised by another countries govt? so let that sink in sunshine like I said before YOU have no idea. I really must put you on my ignore list. cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Kdubya no axe to grind with you but do you think small subsidies would have stayed small? If the miners were right do you think given the predicted shortage of fuel that mines will be re opened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Well we have one thing in common at least, The tax part. Why should industry be subsidised? If it was any sort of industry it would need it. Unless of course the unions are bleeding the companies dry and forcing them to pay wages that are unrealistic and give benefits that are unecessary. If by saying when I was 10 you mean the miners strike then you are mistaken, villages were destroyed and people out of work because of the unions and one man. Scargill. He thought he could take on the government and force them into whatever he wanted. Maggie Thatcher stood up to him and crushed them all. Why do we import cheap coal when we have plenty of our own resources? Because it is a lot less hassle. I to have worked every day of my working life, I got made redundant 21/2 years ago but I didn't bleet about it I got on with my life and went and got another job. What would a union done to help me in that situation? ****** all. If the guy who owns the business decides to close it then its tough you are out on your ear. By all means put me on your ignore list, If you can't reason a debate then it seems the best thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col s10 Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 My only regret about Lady Thatcher was that she didnt totally crush every single union in the country. The unions destroyed this country. no matey,that person tried to destroy country all by her self :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 no matey,that person tried to destroy country all by her self :blink: I will second that one. We will see what happens, prehaps we will all have a different view if the strike escalates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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