Newspaper vendor who died at G20 riots

[digger]

What sticks in my throat is the fact the ugly bint hogging todays non news story has been paid £50k for her story. No doubt that wont affect her benefit, glad her dole money extended to a ticket to what was probably the most pointless protest in London for twenty years.

[Blackbart]

So its all ifs and buts , but doesn't that work the other way too ! No probably not, lets lynch the guy anyway ! Ask most police officers and they will tell you they have had a complaint, a lot for assault or use of force, many because people think we should use far more comfortable handcuffs. The problem is the public think they can kick off, gob off and its alright, but when they get caught, please be nice to me officer i'm innocent ! Unfortunately if you resist or struggle then officers use whatever force is NECESSARY to gain compliance.

 

Right then col lets put it another way.

 

Someone in town is assaulted and is found dead.You do what police do and look at the cctv footage.On the cctv footage you see a man whack the man you found dead with a stick,then he launches himself at him and sends him flying to the floor.The other man was seen on the footage to be walking away hands in pockets.

 

If the man attacker was joe bloggs he would be arrested and charged with murder or manslaughter.

 

If the man was a bouncer, and even if the other man had been causing trouble earlier he would be arrested and charged with murder or manslaughter.

 

 

If the man was a police officer,why would you think it was an unfortunate regrettable incident and try and put it down as a terrible accident.??

 

 

 

First he had no contact with police......Then the video came out and the police backtrack and admit he did.

 

Then the ipcc say there was not any cameras in the area........Then THEY backtrack and admit it was wrong to say that.

 

They then say he died of heart attack...........Then they say maybe he didnt and it could have been internal bleeding.

 

 

It is all begining to stink a bit dont you agree.........or maybe not.

 

And yes let's lynch the guy, like you would with any other criminal.

[Baldrick]

It is a little odd that the first autopsy overlooked a 'significant abdominal haemmorhage'. It is not difficult to spot when you have someone's chest split open in front of you, trust me.

 

It is entirely possible that Tomlinson had an underlying condition affecting his spleen and that his spleen ruptured as a direct consequence of the push to the ground. A young colleague of mine very nearly died in similar circumstances after a game of five-aside earlier this year. His spleen, weakened by the symptoms of glandular fever, burst as he was tackled.

[ph5172]

And yes let's lynch the guy, like you would with any other criminal.

 

 

 

And if it does turn out that the internal bleeding was caused by CPR what will happen then to the med student and Police involved in CPR

 

Im sure the full results of the post mortem will be published in the next week or so, as from what i read on the BBC its just preliminary findings as The cause of the haemorrhage remains to be ascertained as haemorrhage can be Caused by injury, by disease or by some medications and Blood can put pressure on nearby organs

[Blackbart]

And if it does turn out that the internal bleeding was caused by CPR what will happen then to the med student and Police involved in CPR

 

Im sure the full results of the post mortem will be published in the next week or so, as from what i read on the BBC its just preliminary findings as The cause of the haemorrhage remains to be ascertained as haemorrhage can be Caused by injury, by disease or by some medications and Blood can put pressure on nearby organs

 

Nothing will happen to them they were trying the save his life not hit him with a baton or throw him on the floor !

[col1888]

Blackbart

 

If you knew anything about investigations you would realise how quickly things change as new facts, circumstances and new evidence comes to light. Thats the aim of an investigation. But you continue to believe your mass conspiracy theory, i mean do you really think the police have gone to the first pathologist and said " Just say it was a heart attack " I'll admit its strange how they missed the bleeding but do we know what levels both autopsies went to ? Yes you are right in your little scenario but what you forget is that your average joe in a normal scenario does not have the powers or cannot use the force that a police officer can in the course of their duties ie; clearing protestors/ hooligans from a given area. No police officer can be aware of every ailment or symptom that every member of the public has before using force. As Baldrick stated there are people amongst us every day with weak hearts or other organs, that they themselves know nothing of, one accident or blow from death. It happens day in day out, unfortunately !

 

Col

[Blackbart]

Blackbart

 

If you knew anything about investigations you would realise how quickly things change as new facts, circumstances and new evidence comes to light. Thats the aim of an investigation. But you continue to believe your mass conspiracy theory, i mean do you really think the police have gone to the first pathologist and said " Just say it was a heart attack " I'll admit its strange how they missed the bleeding but do we know what levels both autopsies went to ? Yes you are right in your little scenario but what you forget is that your average joe in a normal scenario does not have the powers or cannot use the force that a police officer can in the course of their duties ie; clearing protestors/ hooligans from a given area. No police officer can be aware of every ailment or symptom that every member of the public has before using force. As Baldrick stated there are people amongst us every day with weak hearts or other organs, that they themselves know nothing of, one accident or blow from death. It happens day in day out, unfortunately !

 

Col

 

I agree with most of what you said,and by the way i am not into MASS conspiracy theories but i do think the police tend to look after their own,up to and maybe past the point of criminality.

 

But why would they say that tomlinson had no contact with police that day ?Surely that would have been checked ?

Why would the ipcc say there was no cameras ?an unbelievably stupid comment.No cameras in the centre of london.For one you and most other people will know the police will have been monitoring those cameras LIVE and units would have been carrying cameras with them.

Things are moving all the time and it is just getting worse for the force and the officer.The force look like they are covering it up in the publics eyes.Like it or not that reflects on every copper in the country as people trust them less and less.

[Mungler]

What sticks in my throat is the fact the ugly bint hogging todays non news story has been paid £50k for her story. No doubt that wont affect her benefit, glad her dole money extended to a ticket to what was probably the most pointless protest in London for twenty years.

 

Indeed, she is clearly "on the make" and can **** off as far as I am concerned.

[ANDYD]

Its like planes, you only hear about em when something goes wrong. the police do a very good & difficult job sometimes under very difficult circumstances. Most pple seem to have the police guilty, As usual we don't know all the facts before we go on the rampage of hanging someone.

 

I use the police a number of times a year as a publican and would gladly pay more for their service.

 

remember for 90% of us our first call in a problem is them

 

AndyD

Edited April 18, 2009 by ANDYD

[kdubya]

we may not have all the facts but thank god we now have camera phone's?

 

KW

[Malinois]

Hi,

I did 14 years in the police and 3 or them on the City of London Riot Unit.

 

This guy is obviously dawdling, the police are trying to clear the street quickly and take ground.

 

What I do find interesting is that you see a police dog make contact with the back of Tomlinsons leg but does not appear to bite.

 

Now to use a police dog is a severe esculation of force, in fact int he police method of using a thing called the force continuem with a proportionate raising of force, the use of a dog in terms of level of violence in higher than a punck, baton strike, CS spray and even a Tazer.

 

Now if the dog handler raised the level of force toward Tomlinson to the level of a bite. Then the officers push and batton strike are less than the level of a bite which provides some justification as to what and why he did what he did. As after a bite there is nowhere else left to go other than to shoot you.

 

The officer in question is in fact using less force than his colleagues. The only thing I would question is what prior knowledge they have of this man. What has he said or done in the minutes leading up to the culmination.

 

I have been told things which make me believe Tomlinsons past is not all snow white, especially where violence towards the police is concerned.

 

Prior knowledge of a person does allow you to raise your level of force.

 

Its all a can of worms. However, I think the police officer has come severely unstuck as this could happen to anyone, the techniques used are Home Office approved and are used every Friday and Saturday night on every busy high street and more besides.

 

Don't take things of face value.

 

How may of us were sat at home watching the poll tax riots with people looting, pushing scaffolding poles through police car windows and shouting at the TV to bring on the water cannons and plastic bullets.

 

As part of my riot training I had to listed to a tape of PC Ian Broadhurst in the seconds leading upto the mob trying to cut his head off, which they just about succeeded in doing. Thier plan was to parade a police officers head on a stick in fron of the ranks of police.

 

I have worked as a riot officer at football matches, Race Marches, animal lib marches, raves,demonstrations against Salman Rushdie and probably the worst violence when we hosted the European football champs in 96 or 97.

 

From preveious experience coppers don't like to stand around in situations wearing nylon trousers and short sleeve shirts until the first petrol bomb comes in. As the next thing you know the News of the World runss an expose on Police pensions and sickness. I am surprised the police don't just down tools and say **** the lot of you" They will probablyt get blames if it rains tomorrow instead of the forecast of bright sunshine.

 

Lets hope the people who are so quick to condem never need the police.

 

 

Ian

[Gordon R]

I confess to not having a clue what all that was about. Are you saying that Tomlinson's past dealings with the Police was known to the Officers concerned and played some part in their treatment of him? If it didn't, why mention it all?

 

If it played a part - don't keep us in suspense. Just spit it out. As an alleged former Police Officer, are you saying that because of Tomlinson's past, it was okay for him to end up dead?

 

Surely you should be rushing to the Independent Investigators with these vital facts. Perhaps you can clear up the mystery once and for all, or will you be keeping them to yourself. I suspect the latter.

[Blackbart]

Why do coppers keep replying about how hard their job is and all the things they have to do.They all sound like mp's.Let's answer a question with a question.

As for not taking things at face value.If you see a bloke hit with a stick and thrown on the floor...How are you supposed to take that :blink: He was being helped to the shop ?

Just because you have had lot's of training,lot's of stressful things happen and you feel under appreciated by the public you think you are the law.Well guess what, last time i looked you are there to uphold the law not make it up.

To say the cop used less force because the police dog had bit him is a joke.That is like saying i smashed his head in with a baton,but it could have been worse,i could have shot him.A similar thing happened at the derby this year(toon v mackems)A bloke who had not been to the match was walking home.The police didnt want him going that way and he ended up on the floor with a police dog ragging him all over.The police said he was causing trouble.....Until they realised someone caught it on video and then changed their story and appologised.

 

Again you are missing the point by saying "let's hope you dont need the police".If the police are going to turn up and beat me up,then i dont want them.If my house gets burgled,then i am happy to wait the 5 or 6 hours for them to turn up and get my crime number for the insurance company while i listen to them telling me i will probably never see my stuff again.

 

P.S. I am playing golf tomorrow and if it rains, i will be calling the police all the wayround

[wildgoose1uk]

I just want to make the point that this was not an organised riot but a lawful peaceful demonstration attended by many unions and charities not to mention church groups that was hijacked by a small minority of people thart caused a small amount of violence. If the police are going to allow lawful demonstrations to go ahead then surely they have a duty to protect the demonstrators?

 

I like the police, I have family who have been in the force for decades. This should not blind us to their responsibilities, thay have as much a duty to protect the demonstrators as they do the banks who got their windows broken. I know they can be in difficult situations but it is by choice they are there and by choice they put the uniform on every day - otherwise they could work in tesco's.

 

I don't want to have a go at them, I really don't, but from the evidence we have seen there does appear to be reactions that one would not expect.

 

If someone broke into my house and I asked him three times to leave and when he didn't I hit him in the face with a body armoured hand and then across the legs with a baseball bat would I be arrested?

 

Some peopel here seem to forget that the demonstration was on the whole not a planned riot but a peaceful demonstration organised and attended by legal organisations. Are we to say that we should curtail people's rights to protest because there is a 'nasty' small minority who also agree with the protest?

[starlight32]

I have been reading this thread with great interest.....

 

On another note,actually how many members of the police force are actually prosecuted as an average per year for wrong doing, either inappropriate act in the line of duty or other offences?

 

That would be interesting to know, if anyone does?

[Gordon R]

The Police are like any section of society. The vast majority are hardworking, honest and helpful. There will be a small percentage who are dishonest and a further small percentage who are thugs in uniform. Whilst the public see them as covering everything up, the Police themselves would tell you the complete opposite. Many feel that the complaint culture is stopping them from doing the job and diverting their efforts on paperwork.

 

Which category this last officer falls into will decided by the court. I suspect that CPS will pursue this through the courts, because he is a Policeman and because of the publicity. Once in court, I believe the Police are treated more harshly than the public.

[Ozzy Fudd]

god sake this still going on?

[poontang]

Hi,

I did 14 years in the police and 3 or them on the City of London Riot Unit.

 

This guy is obviously dawdling, the police are trying to clear the street quickly and take ground.

 

What I do find interesting is that you see a police dog make contact with the back of Tomlinsons leg but does not appear to bite.

 

Now to use a police dog is a severe esculation of force, in fact int he police method of using a thing called the force continuem with a proportionate raising of force, the use of a dog in terms of level of violence in higher than a punck, baton strike, CS spray and even a Tazer.

 

Now if the dog handler raised the level of force toward Tomlinson to the level of a bite. Then the officers push and batton strike are less than the level of a bite which provides some justification as to what and why he did what he did. As after a bite there is nowhere else left to go other than to shoot you.

 

The officer in question is in fact using less force than his colleagues. The only thing I would question is what prior knowledge they have of this man. What has he said or done in the minutes leading up to the culmination.

 

Interesting.

 

So you're saying that the use of a dog is rated in level of violence terms higher than a tazer? In fact the next step would be the use of firearms?

 

Can you tell me then just exactly what Ian Tomlinson was doing to justify such force being used against him?

 

Whatever he may have said or done leading up to the culmination of events is totally irrelevant.

 

What actually struck me is that he didn't seem to register the baton strike just prior to be being pushed to the ground. I believe he was already gravely ill at that time.

[paulf]

Purely and simply striking him with his back to them is disproportionate, use of a dog or taser would be just as disproportionate.

 

We should all face facts that in this instance the officer involved made a wrong call and hopefully will be held responsible for it.