toka_shigazu Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 The CORRECT response here would be: Mr Policeman "I need you to prove this firearm is legally held, otherwise I will have to confiscate it." Mr Logic "Why don't you call HQ - they can access the database and verify it for you." Mr P "OK. <radios in>" ... a few minutes later ... Mr P "Ok, no problem. Have a nice afternoon" In the Correct ending, the Policeman has applied the letter of the law, which is fair enough. In the other ending, he's being ignorant and failing to do his job. i can see one problem with this...certainally up here the pnc will show whether someone holds an sgc or fac but it will not give details of what legal firearms are held...so there may be variations here as well.... "OK. <radios in>" .... sorry there's no answer from the firearms office, they must all be out/to lunch/after 5pm etc now Mr P, if he truly believes you and is willing to put his career on the line may say, 'ok i am happy and believe you, and can see you are no criminal' etc 'so i will leave you to it' or he may be inexperienced/a stickler etc and 'sorry but i cant risk being wrong...i am going to have to take your firearm until you can prove it is legally held'...again dependant on how willing the officer is 'i will accompany you home, having taken your firearm, and you can show me your document' [if it isnt too far away] or 'i will take the firearm to local station, where you can meet me with the licence, or at least once you get there your firearm will be returned when you can produce your licence or we can make contact with the firearms team'.... if you refused to hand over your firearm then you do commit an offence and you would be arrested....and as it has been said on here once the firearm has been entered into the property system it isnt as easy to get it out again as it soemtimes needs transferring to another more secure station, signing in/out etc and it can prolong the owner recovering it.... ...soz...just adding my bit!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Bagsy, they could arrest you, but it would be illegal if the basis for that arrest is simply that you don't have the firearms certificate with you. If that was the case, I would sue them for wrongful arrest. If they confiscated my firearms, then I would simply take my ticket in and get them back, that's the way it works. Hi Toka - The police all have access to the Firearms DB, and can show that your firearms are legally held. I know this because I was out (with certificate) at around midnight when stopped by two Officers. They'd never seen an FAC before and wanted to validate it, so they called us into their normal control room, who checked all our details on the database. Simple fact is though that if you don't have your ticket, the law says they can confiscate your guns. Hence I take either my ticket or a copy; my objection is being threatened with an unlawful arrest by an officer that either hates shooters and wants to come the heavy, or who doesn't know the laws. Thankfully they are in the minority but it's still very annoying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Agree with you totally Mr L.... but up in Lancashire they dont have access to the database. they have to contact the firearms team who do. not sure but it may be the same in other forces..thats all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Really? that's annoying! Another example of where the licensing system falls down! I'd make sure to have your ticket with you then, or at the very least a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) Agree with you totally Mr L.... but up in Lancashire they dont have access to the database. they have to contact the firearms team who do. not sure but it may be the same in other forces..thats all!! I wouldn't expect "normal" police to necessarily have access to the Firearms Licensing system. However, all they need to do is a PNC check - that will show that your/your address has guns. SGC/FAC holders are all listed in the same system as criminals! So, if there's a domestic at any particular address, the PNC check flashes up that there are guns at the address. My understanding is that this is separate from the firearms licensing system whcih will hold much more details about the guns held. This is the bit that annoys me about the whole production of a certificate thing. All a PC needs to do is confirm your identity - either with SGC, driver license, passport, whatever. Then he can do a PNC check on the address where you say you store your guns - no need to contact FEOs or whoever else - and his own system, the PNC, will confirm guns are held. The whole thing would take about 30 seconds to do. In Mr Logic's scenario(s), no identity has ever been established/confirmed - but that's the crucial bit. Edited August 20, 2009 by Piebob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Mr Logic "I stand for freedom, and I am against persecution. I ask that the Police enforce the letter of the Law, and that we shooters obey that Law. I fail to see how this is anything other than reasonable." Sorry for going of topic a little but may I ask are you the same MR Logic who is arguing, on the Hunting Life Forum, that it is both legal and correct to use Varmint ballistic tips on deer ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 The system is far from perfect, but it amazes me that some would rather risk having their guns confiscated (and the aggravation of getting them returned) and their activity for the day ruined on the basis they won't carry their ticket as this is their 'right'. I assume they don't carry any other ID as this is also their 'right' in this country, therefore they will always have an uphill struggle with the police if stopped with a gun. As was said earlier, sometimes we really don't help ourselves, then get upset when things go Pete Tong. A little common sense could go a long way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 agree, and for an sgc a pnc check will do but for an fac enquiry the officer may want to be sure that the firearm he has confiscated/is looking into is one that is legally held..in that case pnc doesn't give that level of detail. it just tells if one is a holder of a certificate or not...not what guns are held. agree also that for the sake of carrying a copy/original etc it isnt a lot to ask if it means a quick resolution and not having weapons confiscated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonD Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 agree, and for an sgc a pnc check will do but for an fac enquiry the officer may want to be sure that the firearm he has confiscated/is looking into is one that is legally held..in that case pnc doesn't give that level of detail. it just tells if one is a holder of a certificate or not...not what guns are held. agree also that for the sake of carrying a copy/original etc it isnt a lot to ask if it means a quick resolution and not having weapons confiscated. I also think things would be a lot easier if they made SGC\FAC in 2 parts like the driving licence. Generally the paper one is liable to get wet, covered in mud etc when out in the field. If we had a laminated credit card sized i'm sure it would simplify things (provided all officers had training to know what they look like) I know the card wouldn't list the guns you have etc but as a proven certificate holder I doubt the Police would worry too much that the guns were illegal or unregistered. I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard for them to be able to check back on what you do have, mind you if they actually sorted out the firearms database in the first place that would be a start. Jon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Mr Logic "I stand for freedom, and I am against persecution. I ask that the Police enforce the letter of the Law, and that we shooters obey that Law. I fail to see how this is anything other than reasonable." Sorry for going of topic a little but may I ask are you the same MR Logic who is arguing, on the Hunting Life Forum, that it is both legal and correct to use Varmint ballistic tips on deer ?. Yep that's me. But let's be 100% clear on what I'm arguing before this thread goes the way of that thread. I am arguing that: For use in England, a 243 with a varmint bullet (in my particular case the 70 grain ballistic tip, but also the 58 V-max, and 87 v-max, for example) is legal for use on roe deer, and that if you shoot a roe deer in the neck or head with that bullet, it will die instantly (and thus humanely) if you place your shot correctly. I have pointed out and will do so again that I can shoot a bit, and will ONLY take such shots if the conditions are right. The regulations are that you must shoot roe with a rifle which is .240 calibre, has a bullet which is "soft or hollow nosed" and has a muzzle energy of 1700 ft/lbs. I have repeatedly asked for anyone to provide legislation which either specifically outlaws these bullets, or excludes their type. Thus far, nobody has provided any. A varmint bullet in 243 is typically of hollow point construction but with polycarbonate tip to speed expansion. It expands in a predictable manner - each and every time the bullet will expand near-instantly. Therefore, it completely complies with the Deer Act. This violent expansion makes it potentially unsuitable for heart/lung shots (danger of explosion on a rib and insufficient penetration, though still unlikely on a roe tbh) but ideal for neck shots where light penetration and heavy tissue damage are the ideal characteristics. I can understand why people will disagree about the use of these bullets in terms of suitability; that is their right. However in terms of the law, unless someone can provide referenced, relevant legislation which proves me wrong, it's crystal clear that the Act does not outlaw the use of this bullet and it is therefore perfectly legal. I know this is off-topic, but wanted to be clear before anyone starts misquoting me or slagging me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 ..... it will die instantly (and thus humanely) if you place your shot correctly....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 surely thats what ALL hunting comes down to henry - placing youre shot correctly? even if its a chest shot on a rabbit at 50 yards with a 22lr... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 well, quite - doesn't matter what bullet you use, if you shoot it in the **** it's not going to be very humane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) However in terms of the law, unless someone can provide referenced, relevant legislation which proves me wrong, it's crystal clear that the Act does not outlaw the use of this bullet and it is therefore perfectly legal. I know this is off-topic, but wanted to be clear before anyone starts misquoting me or slagging me off. You know full well that the legislation regarding the shooting of deer is the Deer Act 1991 and the deer RRO 2007 which clearly set out the type of bullet permitted. It is up to you Sir to show which legislation permits the use of varmint ballistic tip bullets which are thin skinned and designed to fragment violently as opposed to hunting ballistic tips which are designed to expand in a controlled manner and are marketed for use on deer. As I have previously stated the act does mention ballistic tips, only hollow nosed and soft nosed bullets are mentioned. However, I look forward to you pointing me in the right direction as to where in law it states that one may use varmint ballistic tip bullets on deer. Edited August 20, 2009 by CharlieT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 As I have previously stated the act does mention ballistic tips, only hollow nosed and soft nosed bullets are mentioned.However, I look forward to you pointing me in the right direction as to where in law it states that one may use varmint ballistic tip bullets on deer. BT's are hollow points with a polymer cap to aid aerodynamics and expansion. That's why BT's aren't specifically mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 CharlieT, I think you need to understand how laws work in Britain. Something is legal until it is outlawed by Act of Parliament. As has been pointed out, BTs count as hollow points for the purposes of law. Nothing in any Act outlaws their use in any form, and therefore they are completely legal. If the deer act said Hollow Points specifically designed marketed for game use, I would agree with you. But it doesn't. So I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 I also think things would be a lot easier if they made SGC\FAC in 2 parts like the driving licence. Generally the paper one is liable to get wet, covered in mud etc when out in the field. If we had a laminated credit card sized i'm sure it would simplify things (provided all officers had training to know what they look like) I know the card wouldn't list the guns you have etc but as a proven certificate holder I doubt the Police would worry too much that the guns were illegal or unregistered. I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard for them to be able to check back on what you do have, mind you if they actually sorted out the firearms database in the first place that would be a start. Jon. Am I cracking up or something? you want a card that does no more than a PNC check could have done in seconds? and could have provided the same reasurance as to legality, perhaps a better trained / educated in dealing with people other than a straight arm lock police force might help, perhaps recruting fewer school bullies and going for a more intelligent recruit may also help? anyway I reckon it wont be long before all legal gun holders and their gun details are put on NABIS they seem to think we are criminals now just for owning firearms. ps welcome to the forum MR logic refreshing to see someone of your calibre cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 But longer term are we doing ourselves any favours as shooters? The quicker we are to highlight loopholes on the law, the quicker those loopholes are likely to be closed, whether that be carrying a ticket, using an arguable round, or otherwise. Rights eh, good while we've got 'em Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Well liberty isn't actually free at all. You got to fight tooth and nail for it to make sure that you don't lose the rights you take for granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 ps welcome to the forum MR logic refreshing to see someone of your calibre Thanks for that, really appreciate it. Regarding Jon's suggestion, I think there is a country which basically does this, but they've gone the next step and properly computerised it. So you've got a card with a chip and all the license details are there - you can then buy and sell firearms within your restrictions, it's easy to check just by reading the chip. Could be centrally licensed and solve basically all the firearms licensing problems we have. But this is Britain, and shooters are evil Can't see it happening any time soon!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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